Product Improvement:- Feedback to Bosch.

[Alaskan]

Same here! I have an obnoxiously bright, battery powered blinky light that I use during the day for maximum visibility. So much more visible than a steady light.

For non-eShift models, the reserve can be completely eliminated if your dealer selects "Disabled" for light status in the Diagnostic Tool software. You won't be able to use the integrated lights of course, but it may be a good option if you are only using the USB rechargeable set.

The options are 1. DISABLED, 2. SWITCHABLE ON/OFF, 3. PERMANENTLY ON. Options 2 and 3 will require the reserve, though you can have your dealer set it at 3 watts so the total reserve is only 6 Wh of capacity.

I know that the light reserve is required due to a regulation, but I'm not sure about the eShift reserve. If I had to guess, I'd say it may be a similar story, but I'm really not sure.

Thanks William, that is super helpful and will get me closer to where I want to be.

I presume "the regulation" to which you refer is in the EU. Bosch should seriously consider removing those mandated EU regulated restrictions and features on bikes sold regions like North America, that do not share the same constraints or impositions with the EU. Why should a bike's capabilities be subject to limitation imposed by jurisdictions beyond where the bike is being sold and ridden?

 

[William - Bosch Team]

You make a great point. It may be that Bosch elects to do it globaly for safety reasons, etc. but I'm not sure. I will ask some questions, and hopefully come back to you with a better answer.

 

[Alaskan]

You make a great point. It may be that Bosch elects to do it globaly for safety reasons, etc. but I'm not sure. I will ask some questions, and hopefully come back to you with a better answer.

I look forward to learning what you can uncover. I would add that if it is a matter of a commonly installed part or component that would require a different production line or schedule, I can understand reluctance to get to deep in the weeds making this motor for this location and then producing another series for another location. However if it is just a matter of different firmware and/or programing, that is a variable that could easily be accommodated from place to place, and, I would assume, likely already is.

 

[Spicy Legato]

Congrats! New Bike Day is always exciting!

For faster charging on Dual Battery-equipped eBikes, we recommend getting an additional 2A or 4A charger, and removing one of the batteries from the eBike for charging. Given the widely varying temperatures in most regions of the world, batteries are often removed from the eBike for storage/charging anyways. Charging each battery with its own 4A charger will be faster than charging both with a single 6A. No dangerous adaptation required, and you should have full warranty and tech support.

In addition to compatibility issues with the AC power delivery cord, voltage (the 6A is strictly ~240v, not ~120v-240v range) and frequency, the 6A has not been tested or approved for use in NA. The 6A also has no warranty or technical support outside of its designated region.

I had to purchase the 6 amp charger from Deutschland. I use a step up voltage transformer to make the 6 amp charger work in the USA. However, this means the 6 amp charger never leaves my home. It would be very nice if Bosch would release the 6 amp charger in the USA with 110-120 volt input. Currently, I use two 4 amp chargers for touring. It would be much better if I could swap out the 4 amp, for 6 amp. I could fully charge two 500 watt hour batteries in 3 hours, instead of 4.5 hours.

 

[webcurl]

Low Battery Cutout for Bosch Gen4?

Not sure whether the motor cutout on low battery is set by the bike manufacturer or whether related to the Bosch motor/battery control software. I have an R&M delite Gen 4 with Rohloff hub and I understand the motor cutout is programmed to leave about 2 hours of lights and eshift capability...

electricbikereview.com

 

[nantycoy]

Not on the same topic as previous posts, but to do with the new Nyon and an improvement request to Bosch...

Both prior to and after the recent update, when using my choice of Custom Modes 1,2,3 and 4, the estimated range remains the same, no matter what percentage I have chosen per mode, it simply uses the range equivalent of Turbo. So, set Mode 1 to 120% (Tour rate) and it shows 15 miles (Turbo range when fully charged), change that percentage to 50% (Eco) or any other percentage and it still shows 15 miles. I wonder if/when Bosch will base the range on the actual Mode assistant percentage settings rather than simply using the minimum range throughout!

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Not on the same topic as previous posts, but to do with the new Nyon and an improvement request to Bosch...

Both prior to and after the recent update, when using my choice of Custom Modes 1,2,3 and 4, the estimated range remains the same, no matter what percentage I have chosen per mode, it simply uses the range equivalent of Turbo. So, set Mode 1 to 120% (Tour rate) and it shows 15 miles (Turbo range when fully charged), change that percentage to 50% (Eco) or any other percentage and it still shows 15 miles. I wonder if/when Bosch will base the range on the actual Mode assistant percentage settings rather than simply using the minimum range throughout!

I'll dig deeper on this and get back to you. I'm curious too, as my Nyon was doing something similar the other day.

 

[Nycturne]

Thanks William, that is super helpful and will get me closer to where I want to be.

I presume "the regulation" to which you refer is in the EU. Bosch should seriously consider removing those mandated EU regulated restrictions and features on bikes sold regions like North America, that do not share the same constraints or impositions with the EU. Why should a bike's capabilities be subject to limitation imposed by jurisdictions beyond where the bike is being sold and ridden?

I would assume that the general answer is related to management and engineering costs. I can ship a product that conforms to the most restrictive set of regulations across the various regions I sell (which may be a mix of things from different regions), and be guaranteed to be compliant everywhere. It costs more in terms of engineering time to implement all the regional toggles, and time in management costs making sure the right toggles are set for the right regions.

In the US, state regulations can and do have similar effects.

EDIT: That all said, Bosch does at least set 20mph vs 15mph based on region, so they do have some capability here, but I suspect things are likely to be evaluated based on “business need” (i.e. is it going to hurt competitiveness in the market if they don’t do it). But keep in mind this is speculation on my part, based on my own experiences working for a multi-national corporation doing software development work, and the sort of regulatory things we’ve dealt with and how we’ve handled it.

 

[Alaskan]

I would assume that the general answer is related to management and engineering costs. I can ship a product that conforms to the most restrictive set of regulations across the various regions I sell (which may be a mix of things from different regions), and be guaranteed to be compliant everywhere. It costs more in terms of engineering time to implement all the regional toggles, and time in management costs making sure the right toggles are set for the right regions.

In the US, state regulations can and do have similar effects.

If some or all of the differences in regulatory framework can be accomplished by variations in firmware rather than material manufacture, the cost of accommodating those differences is relatively negligible and not unreasonable to expect or request.

Any changes that can be made for country to country compliance could be programmed such that the various switches available in the firmware are bundled together in a check list according to jurisdiction and "putting and X in the right box" renders the bike compliant where it is being sold and/or ridden.

Given the existing complexity of the Bosch software/firmware ecosystem, this should not be a burdensome update or feature to program.

 

[Alaskan]

Same here! I have an obnoxiously bright, battery powered blinky light that I use during the day for maximum visibility. So much more visible than a steady light.

For non-eShift models, the reserve can be completely eliminated if your dealer selects "Disabled" for light status in the Diagnostic Tool software. You won't be able to use the integrated lights of course, but it may be a good option if you are only using the USB rechargeable set.

The options are 1. DISABLED, 2. SWITCHABLE ON/OFF, 3. PERMANENTLY ON. Options 2 and 3 will require the reserve, though you can have your dealer set it at 3 watts so the total reserve is only 6 Wh of capacity.

I know that the light reserve is required due to a regulation, but I'm not sure about the eShift reserve. If I had to guess, I'd say it may be a similar story, but I'm really not sure.

William, I took my Cannondale Topstone Neo in to REI yesterday so they could fine tune the derailleur to the 11-46 tooth cassette (it came stock with an 11-42). I also asked them to reduce the battery reserve for lighting to 3 watts, which they were able to do. Thanks so much for your help on this. A 3 watt reserve on a 500watt battery is an insignificant fraction. Am I correct in thinking that the 10% reserve is now reduced to less than 1%? Once I have my second battery set up for this bike, I will do a battery challenge and see how far down the battery will go before the reserve kicks in and it no longer offers full assist.

Now I will have yet more range on my bike if I leave the integrated lights off and just use a rechargeable, handlebar mounted blinking light during daytime rides.

 

[Nycturne]

If some or all of the differences in regulatory framework can be accomplished by variations in firmware rather than material manufacture, the cost of accommodating those differences is relatively negligible and not unreasonable to expect or request.

Any changes that can be made for country to country compliance could be programmed such that the various switches available in the firmware are bundled together in a check list according to jurisdiction and "putting and X in the right box" renders the bike compliant where it is being sold and/or ridden.

Given the existing complexity of the Bosch software/firmware ecosystem, this should not be a burdensome update or feature to program.

I 100% agree it is possible in firmware, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask either. But the phrase “penny wise, pound foolish” comes to mind when it comes to how budgets get allocated for work in large companies. I’ve hit this wall myself many times in my engineering career where folks requiring a “good business justification” to spend money on work isn’t necessarily something that makes much sense to an engineer like me working on the product itself, or customers. I’m not suggesting this is why Bosch shouldn’t, but rather why Bosch has likely prioritized things like this low on their backlog.

I’ve had features meant to save us money long-term get thrown out because a week of engineering time, plus maintenance costs was too much, and management wanted to focus on something else instead. It’s not always the cost of the feature itself, but rather the opportunity cost of spending that one week on something that brings in more customers, prevents the loss of a major customer (in B2B which Bosch kinda is), etc, etc.

 

[AlanDB]

I would like to say how much I appreciate the "Bosch Team" participation in this forum. It is one more example that Bosch is a "Class Act".

 

[Alaskan]

I would like to say how much I appreciate the "Bosch Team" participation in this forum. It is one more example that Bosch is a "Class Act".

I could not agree more. My Bosch bikes are better and I get more out of them for it.

 

[webcurl]

I'm pretty sure that here in Australia if you get caught at night without lights by the Police you can't simply say "my Bosch ebike is enabled with a reserve which somehow got depleted" and get away without a fine.
The rider is responsible for functioning lights. And i'd like to also be responsible for the reserve myself.

 

[Alaskan]

Actually in addition to the integrated lights on my bikes, I also have an outstanding Aussie product - the Knog PWR Trail, a USB reachargeable 1000 lumen headlight that has a 5,000 mWh battery that doubles as a power pack and can be used to recharge a phone. It has programable flash modes that work way better at getting driver attention during the day than a fixed, always on light. I never ride without a light, day or night.

Knog PWR Trail 1100L Front Light

Buy Knog PWR Trail 1100L Front Light here at ProBikeKit USA. We have great prices on bikes, components and clothing, as well as free delivery available!

www.probikekit.com

For a tail light I use the Cliq another really cool light that has a cool app with multiple programable modes, an accelerometer for both a brake light as well as security. In the security/alarm mode it senses any motion or shakes on the bike and immediately sends me a text that someone might be tampering with my bike.

Cliq - As bright as it gets

The ultimate smart taillight for the modern cyclist.

www.hauteworks.com

I tend to ride long and hard and want to conserve as much internal battery for the motor as I can. I seldom ride at night but when I do, I make sure that I have enough battery power in reserve to use the integrated lights if needed. Most often they are not as my rechargeables both do a great job.

 

[webcurl]

I ride at night a lot and am completely sold on StVZO compliant lights, when driving or just being a pedestrian, if you are confronted by 10 million lumens of cool white light in your face it really does make you wish for standards like StVZO. Also when riding, focused light beats the s*it out of "everywhere light".

 

[Stephen - Bosch Team]

Not on the same topic as previous posts, but to do with the new Nyon and an improvement request to Bosch...

Both prior to and after the recent update, when using my choice of Custom Modes 1,2,3 and 4, the estimated range remains the same, no matter what percentage I have chosen per mode, it simply uses the range equivalent of Turbo. So, set Mode 1 to 120% (Tour rate) and it shows 15 miles (Turbo range when fully charged), change that percentage to 50% (Eco) or any other percentage and it still shows 15 miles. I wonder if/when Bosch will base the range on the actual Mode assistant percentage settings rather than simply using the minimum range throughout!

Hey @nantycoy! @William - Bosch Team and I were just chatting about this topic this morning. A question to you before we dive deeper---following your customization of assistance and successful transfer to the Nyon, are you logging miles on these custom modes to allow for the range calculation to reset?

The Bosch system recalculates range every ~1.5 miles. I have been testing Custom Modes pretty rigorously myself. I have similar experience with you that the initial range calculation after enabling custom modes does sometimes seem quite low even if my tune may be 30% assistance in MODE 1. As soon as I get to riding, however, I am experiencing the range creeping up as the system acknowledges my tune.

I am digging into this topic further on the tech side, however. I hope to have further information in the coming weeks. Until then, I will continue to test and share my own experiences.

Cheers

 

[William - Bosch Team]

If some or all of the differences in regulatory framework can be accomplished by variations in firmware rather than material manufacture, the cost of accommodating those differences is relatively negligible and not unreasonable to expect or request.

Any changes that can be made for country to country compliance could be programmed such that the various switches available in the firmware are bundled together in a check list according to jurisdiction and "putting and X in the right box" renders the bike compliant where it is being sold and/or ridden.

Given the existing complexity of the Bosch software/firmware ecosystem, this should not be a burdensome update or feature to program.

I've got some more info on this, based on conversations today. Nothing written in stone from Bosch, but I get the strong impression this is more about designing the product to work a certain way, rather than a reluctance to make regional adjustments.

I've put in a documented request for information about the specific amount of reserve Wh for eShift. It will be interesting to know exactly how much is set aside, though I don't think there will ever be an option to adjust this. While eliminating the eShift reserve may get a few riders that extra 1-2 miles of range (speculation until I hear more), the vast majority will likely be better served by still having gear-shifting abilites when they are pedaling that heavy bike under their own power.

With both eShift and light reserve, it is my impression that Bosch and our OEM partners view these as important safety features, and a practical part of the design for making the best possible ride experience. I respect the fact that some riders would like the opportunity to "opt-out" of these precautions, but they are in-line with Bosch's general practice of making things as user-friendly as possible. This quest for user-friendly design is sometimes at the expense of adjustability and customization, unfortunately.

I know this is not good news in terms of what everyone is hoping to accomplish with their eBikes (eek out a little more range, etc.), but I hope there is some value in understanding where Bosch is coming from on it.

Again, my impressions here... not official Bosch marketing language.

 

[nantycoy]

Hey @nantycoy! @William - Bosch Team and I were just chatting about this topic this morning. A question to you before we dive deeper---following your customization of assistance and successful transfer to the Nyon, are you logging miles on these custom modes to allow for the range calculation to reset?

The Bosch system recalculates range every ~1.5 miles. I have been testing Custom Modes pretty rigorously myself. I have similar experience with you that the initial range calculation after enabling custom modes does sometimes seem quite low even if my tune may be 30% assistance in MODE 1. As soon as I get to riding, however, I am experiencing the range creeping up as the system acknowledges my tune.

I am digging into this topic further on the tech side, however. I hope to have further information in the coming weeks. Until then, I will continue to test and share my own experiences.

Cheers

Yes, plenty of miles done on single rides - yesterday for example, 31 miles of Welsh hills. I set the modes to 1-150%, 2-200%, 3-260%, 4-310% (CX Gen2 - firmware v1.8.6.0). Fully charged it showed 23 miles (Turbo equivalent) for all 4 Modes. However, as I piled on the miles the range varied according to the last 1.5 miles terrain, but it showed the same range distance whatever Mode I chose.

One other observation... Both my Nyons self-updated on the 15th of March this year and on one I noticed the Mode ranges DID show range variation according to Mode but the numbers bore no relation to reality (greatly overoptimistic!). After switching off and later back on it then reverted to the single figure.

I do wonder if, because I don't opt for low assistance percentages (a combination of damaged knees/Welsh hills!) this has a bearing on how the software calculates the range. I'll set up one of my bikes with low percentages and see what happens and get back to you.

 

[nantycoy]

Yes, plenty of miles done on single rides - yesterday for example, 31 miles of Welsh hills. I set the modes to 1-150%, 2-200%, 3-260%, 4-310% (CX Gen2 - firmware v1.8.6.0). Fully charged it showed 23 miles (Turbo equivalent) for all 4 Modes. However, as I piled on the miles the range varied according to the last 1.5 miles terrain, but it showed the same range distance whatever Mode I chose.

One other observation... Both my Nyons self-updated on the 15th of March this year and on one I noticed the Mode ranges DID show range variation according to Mode but the numbers bore no relation to reality (greatly overoptimistic!). After switching off and later back on it then reverted to the single figure.

I do wonder if, because I don't opt for low assistance percentages (a combination of damaged knees/Welsh hills!) this has a bearing on how the software calculates the range. I'll set up one of my bikes with low percentages and see what happens and get back to you.

Hi Again! Right, I think I have found the answer... I used the Eco (50%) and Tour (120%) percentage equivalents for Mode numbers 1 and 2 and the ranges shown in both Custom and Standard are the same. However, as soon as I exceed 120%, the Mode range immediately drops to the equivalent of Turbo. It seems the software needs to be refined to reflect more accurately any percentage above 120%.

Hope that helps.
Chris