Product Improvement:- Feedback to Bosch.

[Akrotiri]

Folllowing up on my posts about about my Allant 7s skipping....1st not at all happy with the shop! After they worked hard to find answers they called and said it was ready yesterday. I was not able to pick up till today. My usual tech Steve was not in As he said when he called yesterday. The repair was replacing the cassette again. It was worn after 500 miles.

The issue from my side was when I picked up last time for the same issue the 1st time it skipped after they replaced the chain and cassette was it skipped on the 1st ride 2 miles of riding. I rode the bike maybe 6 times and it got worse., still rideable just not fixed correctly. Today I was told they were only going to charge me for the cassette, 33 and change. I was pretty upset since i paid retail for the bike continue to pay every time they service it (why buy local?) but once where I received my free 1 month service and that was the 1st time it skipped! I don’t believe they made it skip (maybe they did??) because the part was very worn but if it wasn’t fixed the last time it seems the cassette was defective.

I was told the reason was I only rode in the last 2 gears and at 64 years old how to drive a manual shift car. I learned to drive on 62 Falcon 3 in the tree. My response was I knew how to shift but most of my time is in the upper gears on the gorgeous Silver Comet Trail, 3 miles from my house, a relaively flat rails to trails with few stops on my 75 to 103 mile rides, why would I shift so much or use lower gears for take off when I am going along on a “highway” style trail? Same reason it is on hi power most of the time. “don’t you slow down when near other people.” The answer was yes, usually twice as few other people are out there during retired hours, no reason for excessive shifts. The trail is awesome , one of the main reasons retiring here near Atlanta.

I was told these are regular bike parts and if I needed service again I was to bring in ebike parts and they would replace it but otherwise implied to what I heard I was done with service. On the way out I muttered to sales dept “ I was told to not come back!” I have not tested the bike , not sure if is really fixed yet!

I intend to follow up with emails to to Trek and owner/president of the chain and if I can get a bike form another shop , probably a Vado I will be selling this and the 2 additional batteries which includes the piggyback attachment sharing the external batteries. Way to go make a customer happy about buying 6grand of a bike!

The cause of your damaged cassette is starting in the high gears.

You’re supposed to be in the lowest(easiest)
gears when stopped and as you start pedaling then up shift. When you start moving from a stop in the higher gears you put immense strain and your weight on the cassette teeth causing them to get chipped, mashed and bashed.

You also shouldn’t be riding in turbo all the time. Even at 64 years old you can be in “tour” mode and 5th or 6th gear and you will easily be cruising along at 20mph with minimal effort.


I’m sorry but the problems you described is due to your incorrect (lack of) shifting. Even on a non-electric bike you would have broken your cassette. If you sell your trek and get a Vado and continue the same style of wrong shifting you will break that drivetrain too.

 

[opimax]

Both of you are missing the point I think , I do start in lower gears but once moving I am on a trail and go for hours at a time. I slow down as I near other people but usually that is about 2 people. For 40 miles maybe 3 stop signs why would I shift gears on a flat strait extra smooth trail ??? I ride at 25 mph as long as I can which requires hi power for me. I think the number I saw was 14 some per mile from the bike print out they supplied for on diags, does this make sense ? It is a class 3 bike which is why I bought it. When it was new it didn’t skip, they replaced parts , I payed labor and parts , it was not repaired properly or it would not have skipped in 2 miles. They replaced the main part a second time and state it now fixed. Seems like the 1st part was defective???

I believe the part replced this time was done by another tech not knowing it was not fixed properly the 1st time and i believe he didn’t like the fact that I didn’t drive back the same day that I picked it up, rode it for 6 more times probably(if I don’t think I will get 60 miles for my ride I don’t go and try again the next day) ...and did the repair differently or adjusted it differently as suggested by William in 1 of the replies. I certainly don’t know , I am at the mercy of the techs. I don’t know if it fixed this time yet.

edit to all . I am not denying some part of this being me, just not most. A bike repair should last more that 2 miles

 

[Dallant]

Hey Bosch! Get it together!
My feedback today is that I (ok, my LBS) ordered my spare 625wh PowerTube battery for my Trek Allant+7 FOUR MONTHS AGO! All the parts from Trek have been in for over a month! I called Bosch just now and they have NO CLUE when I might see this battery. Maybe they will know more in June was the best they could tell me. Then they tried like crazy to sell me on a Range Booster additional battery system. Even those aren’t likely to show before June! According to the guy I talked to, his main excuse was that these batteries are made in China and customs is giving them a hard time about these batteries.
C’mon Bosch, you’re a global powerhouse...it’s one of the main reasons I bought an ebike with that system. Pull some strings!

 

[Akrotiri]

Hey Bosch! Get it together!
My feedback today is that I (ok, my LBS) ordered my spare 625wh PowerTube battery for my Trek Allant+7 FOUR MONTHS AGO! All the parts from Trek have been in for over a month! I called Bosch just now and they have NO CLUE when I might see this battery. Maybe they will know more in June was the best they could tell me. Then they tried like crazy to sell me on a Range Booster additional battery system. Even those aren’t likely to show before June! According to the guy I talked to, his main excuse was that these batteries are made in China and customs is giving them a hard time about these batteries.
C’mon Bosch, you’re a global powerhouse...it’s one of the main reasons I bought an ebike with that system. Pull some strings!

Dallant the Bosch batteries, atleast the 625wh models are made in Hungary.

However I know of a lonely 625wh Bosch battery in NY...

 

[Dallant]

Dallant the Bosch batteries, atleast the 625wh models are made in Hungary.

However I know of a lonely 625wh Bosch battery in NY...

The Bosch guy I talked to said China but I really have no idea. Still have that battery, eh?

 

[Akrotiri]

The Bosch guy I talked to said China but I really have no idea. Still have that battery, eh?

Unless they changed something recently or the Bosch rep was wrong/lying all Bosch 625 made in Hungary.

Yup still got it.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Apologies for the delay on batteries. Unfortunately, just about everything in the bicycle industry is facing major delays currently, as is the case with most other industries too from what I've heard. That being said, it sounds like the Bosch rep you spoke with on the phone may have been slightly confused on the topic. I will work with their manager to get them up to speed.

I just took a look at the US distributor for Bosch components to confirm what the rep told you... the Powertube 625 is predicted to be in-stock in June. Range Boost is a Trek product, so you'd need to check with them on availability, but the Bosch frame-type battery that works with Range Boost is due in-stock mid-February.

I realize this won't make the wait any better, but hopefully sheds some light on the current delays:
I'm not sure which part(s) of the process are causing the delay, but I can share what I know in general. The cells come from a top, name-brand manufacturer, location unknown to me, but likely outside of Hungary. There are then a number of other components that must be sourced (BMS, etc.). The individual SMT components on the BMS alone likely come from several different providers/sources, all facing their own challenges. Then there is the extruded aluminum housing that the Powertube batteries use. All of these components must come together in Hungary at Bosch's battery pack plant for assembly. If I had to GUESS, I'd say the hold-up may be on lithium cells, but I really have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised if there are multiple factors/components causing delays. Historically, lithium cells have been a bottle neck point for many industries as the global demand seems to exceed the global supply. Factor in the increased demand and decreased capacity for finished goods that a pandemic seems to bring, and the fact that many factories were shut-down for some period of time when this all started? Global logistics back-ups can also delay delivery of these raw materials, sub-assemblies, and finished components. Things can get quite backed-up.

I recently spoke with a close friend at a electronic equipment manufacturer here in the States... they said that one of their flagship products relies on a SMT component that now has a lead time of 3 YEARS due to the pandemic. An extreme case, but they've actually had to discontinue the entire product line as a result.

Again, I realize this doesn't take the sting out of waiting, but hopefully conveys that we are doing everything we can to get product here.

 

[Dallant]

Apologies for the delay on batteries. Unfortunately, just about everything in the bicycle industry is facing major delays currently, as is the case with most other industries too from what I've heard. That being said, it sounds like the Bosch rep you spoke with on the phone may have been slightly confused on the topic. I will work with their manager to get them up to speed.

I just took a look at the US distributor for Bosch components to confirm what the rep told you... the Powertube 625 is predicted to be in-stock in June. Range Boost is a Trek product, so you'd need to check with them on availability, but the Bosch frame-type battery that works with Range Boost is due in-stock mid-February.

I realize this won't make the wait any better, but hopefully sheds some light on the current delays:
I'm not sure which part(s) of the process are causing the delay, but I can share what I know in general. The cells come from a top, name-brand manufacturer, location unknown to me, but likely outside of Hungary. There are then a number of other components that must be sourced (BMS, etc.). The individual SMT components on the BMS alone likely come from several different providers/sources, all facing their own challenges. Then there is the extruded aluminum housing that the Powertube batteries use. All of these components must come together in Hungary at Bosch's battery pack plant for assembly. If I had to GUESS, I'd say the hold-up may be on lithium cells, but I really have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised if there are multiple factors/components causing delays. Historically, lithium cells have been a bottle neck point for many industries as the global demand seems to exceed the global supply. Factor in the increased demand and decreased capacity for finished goods that a pandemic seems to bring, and the fact that many factories were shut-down for some period of time when this all started? Global logistics back-ups can also delay delivery of these raw materials, sub-assemblies, and finished components. Things can get quite backed-up.

I recently spoke with a close friend at a electronic equipment manufacturer here in the States... they said that one of their flagship products relies on a SMT component that now has a lead time of 3 YEARS due to the pandemic. An extreme case, but they've actually had to discontinue the entire product line as a result.

Again, I realize this doesn't take the sting out of waiting, but hopefully conveys that we are doing everything we can to get product here.

I do appreciate the response. I know it’s a tough time for most, just needed to vent as I’m hoping to do some significant (for me anyway) touring this spring/summer/fall. Part of the problem is simply Just In Time manufacturing which means nobody builds warehouses full of stuff ahead of need anymore. A pandemic like this is Kryptonite to JIT. Thanks again.

 

[webcurl]

Apologies for the delay on batteries. Unfortunately, just about everything in the bicycle industry is facing major delays currently, as is the case with most other industries too from what I've heard. That being said, it sounds like the Bosch rep you spoke with on the phone may have been slightly confused on the topic. I will work with their manager to get them up to speed.

I just took a look at the US distributor for Bosch components to confirm what the rep told you... the Powertube 625 is predicted to be in-stock in June. Range Boost is a Trek product, so you'd need to check with them on availability, but the Bosch frame-type battery that works with Range Boost is due in-stock mid-February.

I realize this won't make the wait any better, but hopefully sheds some light on the current delays:
I'm not sure which part(s) of the process are causing the delay, but I can share what I know in general. The cells come from a top, name-brand manufacturer, location unknown to me, but likely outside of Hungary. There are then a number of other components that must be sourced (BMS, etc.). The individual SMT components on the BMS alone likely come from several different providers/sources, all facing their own challenges. Then there is the extruded aluminum housing that the Powertube batteries use. All of these components must come together in Hungary at Bosch's battery pack plant for assembly. If I had to GUESS, I'd say the hold-up may be on lithium cells, but I really have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised if there are multiple factors/components causing delays. Historically, lithium cells have been a bottle neck point for many industries as the global demand seems to exceed the global supply. Factor in the increased demand and decreased capacity for finished goods that a pandemic seems to bring, and the fact that many factories were shut-down for some period of time when this all started? Global logistics back-ups can also delay delivery of these raw materials, sub-assemblies, and finished components. Things can get quite backed-up.

I recently spoke with a close friend at a electronic equipment manufacturer here in the States... they said that one of their flagship products relies on a SMT component that now has a lead time of 3 YEARS due to the pandemic. An extreme case, but they've actually had to discontinue the entire product line as a result.

Again, I realize this doesn't take the sting out of waiting, but hopefully conveys that we are doing everything we can to get product here.

Yes!
This should be a sticky message at the top of every thread on these forums. So many people either venting or not understanding that other countries are using different tactics with this covid thing.
And of course in this forum, not to forget that Germany (Bosch) has had multiple hard lock-downs in the last 6 months or so.

 

[Dallant]

Yes!
This should be a sticky message at the top of every thread on these forums. So many people either venting or not understanding that other countries are using different tactics with this covid thing.
And of course in this forum, not to forget that Germany (Bosch) has had multiple hard lock-downs in the last 6 months or so.

Go ahead and make it a sticky.
As a (high) paying customer, I retain the right to vent and to inform/warn other potential paying customers of what’s happening in this space, regardless of market conditions. IMO, Germany’s lock downs appear to have little to do with this issue since most of the components are made/assembled elsewhere.

 

[webcurl]

Go ahead and make it a sticky.
As a (high) paying customer, I retain the right to vent and to inform/warn other potential paying customers of what’s happening in this space, regardless of market conditions. IMO, Germany’s lock downs appear to have little to do with this issue since most of the components are made/assembled elsewhere.

Good point. And i was not having a go at anyone in particular.
But in regards to Bosch, i would confidently say that logistics & most if not all other management are performed in Germany, it's also quite possible for example with the batteries the (very propriatary & hard to obtain) Bosch ebike charge plugs/sockets are warehoused in Germany and would have to travel via an Autobahn or 3 from Germany to Hungary, but during these lockdowns they had, the Autobahns would have looked like a scene from an apocalypse movie.
Frustrating times for many, including myself and i say once again I didn't mean to offend anyone.

 

[Dallant]

Good point. And i was not having a go at anyone in particular.
But in regards to Bosch, i would confidently say that logistics & most if not all other management are performed in Germany, it's also quite possible for example with the batteries the (very propriatary & hard to obtain) Bosch ebike charge plugs/sockets are warehoused in Germany and would have to travel via an Autobahn or 3 from Germany to Hungary, but during these lockdowns they had, the Autobahns would have looked like a scene from an apocalypse movie.
Frustrating times for many, including myself and i say once again I didn't mean to offend anyone.

I took no offense.
The other concern is that if I were having real problems with my Bosch products (and it wasn’t winter) that was keeping me from riding, I’d be far more upset!

 

[Akrotiri]

Apologies for the delay on batteries. Unfortunately, just about everything in the bicycle industry is facing major delays currently, as is the case with most other industries too from what I've heard. That being said, it sounds like the Bosch rep you spoke with on the phone may have been slightly confused on the topic. I will work with their manager to get them up to speed.

I just took a look at the US distributor for Bosch components to confirm what the rep told you... the Powertube 625 is predicted to be in-stock in June. Range Boost is a Trek product, so you'd need to check with them on availability, but the Bosch frame-type battery that works with Range Boost is due in-stock mid-February.

I realize this won't make the wait any better, but hopefully sheds some light on the current delays:
I'm not sure which part(s) of the process are causing the delay, but I can share what I know in general. The cells come from a top, name-brand manufacturer, location unknown to me, but likely outside of Hungary. There are then a number of other components that must be sourced (BMS, etc.). The individual SMT components on the BMS alone likely come from several different providers/sources, all facing their own challenges. Then there is the extruded aluminum housing that the Powertube batteries use. All of these components must come together in Hungary at Bosch's battery pack plant for assembly. If I had to GUESS, I'd say the hold-up may be on lithium cells, but I really have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised if there are multiple factors/components causing delays. Historically, lithium cells have been a bottle neck point for many industries as the global demand seems to exceed the global supply. Factor in the increased demand and decreased capacity for finished goods that a pandemic seems to bring, and the fact that many factories were shut-down for some period of time when this all started? Global logistics back-ups can also delay delivery of these raw materials, sub-assemblies, and finished components. Things can get quite backed-up.

I recently spoke with a close friend at a electronic equipment manufacturer here in the States... they said that one of their flagship products relies on a SMT component that now has a lead time of 3 YEARS due to the pandemic. An extreme case, but they've actually had to discontinue the entire product line as a result.

Again, I realize this doesn't take the sting out of waiting, but hopefully conveys that we are doing everything we can to get product here.

Some feedback for Bosch.

Perhaps it’s time to allow for over the air updates for our motors.

Bosch already allows this for our head units so I don’t understand why in 2021 during a pandemic that’s going to be circulating for atleast another 18 months or forever or turn into a plague and yet we still have to go to a Bosch certified dealer to receive the motor software updates.

Even if there wasn’t a pandemic I still think Bosch should step up their game and recognize that it’s 2021 and consumers who purchase Bosch powered ebikes don’t fancy the idea of a needless trip to the dealer. I was embarrassed to tell my Tesla driving buddy that I have to bring it to the shop for software updates. Tesla customers would not accept that.

Also, since ebike sales are growing exponentially how will dealers handle all the customers hording their shops during the same time frame for the updates? At some point it will reach critical mass and the shops won’t be able to handle the volume of people. Their swamped as it is trying to complete assembly, repairs & maintenance, sales, etc.

Thanks for being on the forums William and hope you will pass this on to the higher-ups at Bosch.

 

[webcurl]

Some feedback for Bosch.

Perhaps it’s time to allow for over the air updates for our motors.

Bosch already allows this for our head units so I don’t understand why in 2021 during a pandemic that’s going to be circulating for atleast another 18 months or forever or turn into a plague and yet we still have to go to a Bosch certified dealer to receive the motor software updates.

Even if there wasn’t a pandemic I still think Bosch should step up their game and recognize that it’s 2021 and consumers who purchase Bosch powered ebikes don’t fancy the idea of a needless trip to the dealer. I was embarrassed to tell my Tesla driving buddy that I have to bring it to the shop for software updates. Tesla customers would not accept that.

Also, since ebike sales are growing exponentially how will dealers handle all the customers hording their shops during the same time frame for the updates? At some point it will reach critical mass and the shops won’t be able to handle the volume of people. Their swamped as it is trying to complete assembly, repairs & maintenance, sales, etc.

Thanks for being on the forums William and hope you will pass this on to the higher-ups at Bosch.

Here, here. Totally agree.
And even if that can't be done, can Bosch at least maintain a detailed "Changelog" for end users (just like what the dealers can see on their portal screens) on this section of the website: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/software-update/

 

[Nycturne]

I’ve gotten a chance to use the eBike Connect app more with my 2021 Nyon, and have put together some initial feedback.

Bugs:

• Speed graph for an activity is always in kph, ignoring the user’s settings. So while the activity details may say something like my average speed is 11.6mph, the graph is hovering around 17-18 instead which matches what the average kph value would be.
• Feed tab on the iPhone only shows the last ride. Website shows quite a bit more, and the iPhone feed does show multiple Bosch messages, so it's a bit of a bummer there.
  • In this vein, I also got a blank card for the latest ride today. Had to kill the app to get it to show.
• While the web portal and the 2021 MY Nyon will show an altitude graph for a ride imported from Komoot, the iPhone app will not. (Looks like this one was recently fixed) (And now I’m seeing it again)

Missing Functionality / Feature Requests:

• [!] Can’t save locations from the iPhone app. It’d be great if when searching for a destination, we could save the location of the destination, rather than just create a route. I don’t necessarily want/need a route if I'm just looking to be able to navigate to a local BBQ joint.
• Integration into HealthKit would be nice, letting folks save activity recordings as workouts. Pretty much all the same data an Apple Watch records is available through the Nyon.
• Komoot gets automatic importing of recorded rides, but Strava is manual? Feels weird, and I wonder why that is. Not super important to me, but it does stand out to someone looking at what their options for fitness tracking are.
• A tablet app would be nice for planning (one reason I use Komoot for route planning). It would also be nice for looking at recorded activity.
  • In this vein, more useful graphs/details for planning would be nice. For me, the grade of climbs are a bit more useful than altitude alone. Knowing what type of paths the route contains is a surprisingly handy feature for two reasons: my state is still hashing out e-bike access issues on single track trails, and to get a better idea if the automatic routing may have put us on single track when we’d prefer to try to stick to paved paths (i.e. not on the right tires, just not in the mood, etc).

Nyon 2021 Feedback:

• [!] I'd love a toggle to have Left/Right on the controller skip the settings screen. That or be able to mark which screen is the startup screen. Right now, left from the startup screen is always the settings screen which isn't great from an ergonomics perspective during a ride.
  • Reason for this is what I want is the speed screen to be the startup screen, but but it'd be great if I could more easily build something like:
    "Map" <-> "Speed (Default)" <-> "Ride Metrics" <-> "Nifty Post Ride Metrics"
    "Fitness Metrics" <-> "Speed (Default)" <-> "Ride Metrics"

EDIT: I've put [!] next to the non-bug feedback that I feel is most important to me, since it enables certain use cases that I would like to be able to do today.

 

[fooferdoggie]

• Integration into HealthKit would be nice, letting folks save activity recordings as workouts. Pretty much all the same data an Apple Watch records is available through the Nyon.

I wanted this too/ but I don't know if it is because I have a apple watch but my rides from my garmin don't really go towards exercise. its only what my watch gets on its own.it may show a workout but it does not really go towards info in heath. I get the same exercise info if I use my garmin or not. I should try a ride without my watch and see what happens.

 

[Nycturne]

I wanted this too/ but I don't know if it is because I have a apple watch but my rides from my garmin don't really go towards exercise. its only what my watch gets on its own.it may show a workout but it does not really go towards info in heath. I get the same exercise info if I use my garmin or not. I should try a ride without my watch and see what happens.

Third party apps should be able to write to HealthKit, and have it show up as exercise minutes. Komoot has done this for me, but I haven't tried Garmin's stuff for that. Komoot's issue is that it records so little information into HealthKit that it's not all that useful. But Komoot doesn't really record a whole lot about a ride, either.

I haven't written any code specifically against HealthKit myself, but from the documentation, it looks like a lot of it is making sure you dump data in using the right format. Based on what eBike Connect can pull from the Nyon, it should be able to capture everything the Apple Watch does, and more. I just don't have a heart monitor to try to see how much detail is captured there, and if it is as granular as what the Apple Watch does.

I've tried using an Apple Watch to capture workouts before, and it's hard for me to get used to wearing a watch again. Especially a heavy smartwatch. The Nyon so far has been more "idiot-proof" at capturing this data for me and syncing it back, which is honestly great.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I don't record with my Apple Watch but it gets my exercise. not as sessions but just overall time. like today my garmin did not sync the last commute but I have 71 minutes of exercise. the watch hI guess feeds in since my heart rate is higher. Tuesday my heart rate only got to 89 average and did not go towards exercise. (it was icy conditions so I could not go fast) so it does not seem too do anything with the info my garmin syncs.so maybe I will take my watch off for my ride to wand then when my garmin syncs see what I get. the only way heath shows I have bike rides is if I record them with my watch or phone. it really sucks you don't actually get workouts recorded in health from any source then your watch. your watch only gives you credit say for a walk if you heart rate is high enough.
but I think the Nyon is like the kiox say you stop and run into a store and turn it off thats the end of that trip. so you cant get a full ride if you stop for more then 5 minutes when it turns off on its own.

 

[Nycturne]

it really sucks you don't actually get workouts recorded in health from any source then your watch.

Recording of workouts from third party apps without a watch is supported. The Health app even advertises compatible apps on different screens. Garmin seems to list what they can sync to HealthKit which does include workouts, but it depends on the device used. It also requires that the Garmin Connect app is in the foreground to sync it to HealthKit. So I’m not entirely sure what’s going on in your case.

I think there’s an opportunity here because Bosch records activities in much the same granularity as a workout recorded on the Apple Watch does. So it might not be too hard to sync new activities to the Health and Fitness apps, while also keeping that rich metadata.

I don't record with my Apple Watch but it gets my exercise. not as sessions but just overall time. like today my garmin did not sync the last commute but I have 71 minutes of exercise. the watch hI guess feeds in since my heart rate is higher.

Yeah, it will attempt to automatically count that stuff towards the activity rings, even if a workout isn’t recorded for it. Starting a workout on the watch will record more detailed data which is useful for folks who are interested in delving a bit deeper and tracking improvement over time.

I think the Nyon is like the kiox say you stop and run into a store and turn it off thats the end of that trip. so you cant get a full ride if you stop for more then 5 minutes when it turns off on its own.

Correct. I just don’t believe it’s a deal breaker for me, so long as all segments are properly recorded and logged.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Recording of workouts from third party apps without a watch is supported. The Health app even advertises compatible apps on different screens. Garmin seems to list what they can sync to HealthKit which does include workouts, but it depends on the device used. It also requires that the Garmin Connect app is in the foreground to sync it to HealthKit. So I’m not entirely sure what’s going on in your case.

what I meant is the watch seems to override any workout from the garmin. I need to remember and turn my watch off tonight and see what goes towards exercise. I was hoping garmin would add its info like heart rate and all do health but it will just show a workout but that info is not considered a workout in heath. when I first started syncing garmin to health it was instant it would show the workout. Now it can take days to do it. like now it shows 2/8 was the last imported garmin recording. finally after opening both apps and killing them and reopening them the garmin rides show though not todays.
so the garmin is much better at keeping track of info. like how long of rides how many miles how much I climbed the apple watch is fairly inaccurate for info speed and distance is off by a fair amount. I wish I could get the watts info into garmin so I could track it over time better. plus strava is handy to keep track of my rides easier then even garmin.