Product Improvement:- Feedback to Bosch.

[tolovan]

It definitely feels that way sometimes. I'm sorry you are having an issue with your brand new eBike.

There is a well-defined process for addressing issues with a Bosch-equipped eBike. Sometimes... the OEM tech support hotline, the local bike shop, and the Bosch team are not all on the same page for one reason or another.

We will get your issue resolved. Even in cases of OEM responsibility, our Service Team is still trained to help you with a resolution. That being said, we need to know where to start. Taking the eBike to a Certified Bosch Dealer will allow for a Diagnostic Report, and further information that can help get the situation resolved.

According to the NorCal Bosch Tech Rep, things are pretty wild in your area right now due to the fires, and it may be tough to get to a shop. I'll help you as much as possible remotely. So as not to take up space on the "Product Improvement..." thread, please send me a PM with information about the issue you are experiencing, or start a new thread. We can go from there.

@William - Bosch Team Thanks for your kind offer of help. I just send you a PM.

 

[Tomi]

All Bosch Systems should cut-out a little before the stated max assist, but this is a smaller value assuming the speed is otherwise correct.

Cut-out speed: with Nyon+custom assistane curve we tested and tried out more scenarios. Bikes are CX engines, agressive motors. You can change the assistance % for any speed, but the last point is max.assist speed and 0%. The optimum was max.assist speed - 3km/h, 22km/h in EU. With 24km/h the assistance change was uncontrollable for the biker.

 

[Dr. Science]

Hi, fellow eBikers//
Haven’t followed this forum for a bit - I guess the pandemic is cramping my style. Wanted to chat about the apparent speed differences between he Bosch cycling computers and other measuring devices.
I have an R&M Delite with the big Bosch motor, the Enviolo 380 Constant Variable Speed Hub, and the Gates belt drive. It came with two batteries and the Kiox display, which I did not care for - one bit. After spending some time on this forum, and paying attention to Alaskan, bought an 8 Gig Nyon from a company in Germany. Had my LBS swap out the Kiox for an Intuvia and had them install the Nyon controller. Stuck the Nyon on the Intuvia head and away I went. Absolutely love this machine. The Nyon is the best cycling computer I’ve ever owned. I used Garmin Edges for about fifteen years. Currently have a 1030, which is pretty good, but not in the same league as the Nyon.
One thing that Garmin does is allow the Edge to calculate the tire’s circumference and use it in its calculations. It’s fairly simple and uses the concept of ‘an infinite number of inaccurate measurements results in an exact measurement.’ That might sound like a geek-ism, but it’s true. That’s how Kalman Filters work and that’s how your cell phone is able to provide such an accurate position. I believe this is how it works in a cycling computer. Full disclosure - Garmin does not publicize this and it’s my take on how it could work.
First, the cycling computer has to have a GPS engine. And - you have to have a way of sensing the tire’s revolutions. The magnetic sensor will do it. Garmin now uses an accelerometer, which seems to work fairly well. Fire up the computer and the GPS gets your position. Time To First Fix (TTFF) on these newer engines is quite quick. The computer starts its routine when it senses the end or a revolution, which is the start of the next revolution. It also records the start position, and records positions at some interval throughout this process. You pick the interval - fifteen seconds? At the end of the routine you have the number of revolutions and can easily calculate the distance traveled. Calculating the circumference is grammar school math. How many revolutions? I’d start with 200. A two foot diameter wheel has a circumference of 6-1/4 feet or so. 200 revolutions is about a quarter mile.
The eBike has so much power available that you could run this routine every fifteen minutes or so and get a very large number of circumference measurements and not seriously impact the battery. This will yield a very precise measurement. Think about a bell-shaped curve with a very pointy apex. If you don’t believe me find someone who understands statistics and ask her.
For those of you who understand computer programming you’ll realize that this a very simple algorithm. And writing the code wold be a piece of cake.
The easy thing for Bosch to do is write the code and test it. Optimize it. Run it by the OEMs to ensure that they’re OK with it. Put it on the Nyons and allow the user a choice - input the circumference or allow the Nyon to calculate it. By the way - that’s what Garmin does…
And - oh, the new Nyon. It’s supposed to be available in North America by the end of the year. It appears to have a smaller display than the older one. It does include a touch screen that allows you to move from screen to screen with your finger tips. Maybe I’m a Neanderthal, but I really don’t like the idea of having to essentially change displays to get different information. I need to pay attention to the road. I’ve put together a custom screen on my old Nyon that has everything I need on it. I know exactly where to find any information I want. Just glance down and I have it. I like that. Have not seen the specs for the new Nyon, but will purchase another old Nyon as a backup in case the first one dies. Guess Bosch is trying to purge its inventory so the old Nyon is going for €273, which is a good price.
Finally - need to reiterate that the Nyon is the best I've ever used. Has everything I need - WiFi, Bluetooth, HRM, beautiful display, great navigation interface, and the ability to customize just about everything.

Anyway,
Happy eBiking…

Bob

 

[Solar Roller]

Having done some long haul rides, it would be great to have a "break" button that would allow the rider to rest their legs without having to stop (note "Break", not "Brake").

Perhaps the Walk mode button could be programmed so that if held down while above 5 MPH, the bike will maintain the current speed (within class limit) for up to 1/4 mile without pedaling. To ensure the bike isn't considered a Class 2, make it so that if you shift or apply pedal torque, break mode drops and you must pedal the bike to continue riding. Make the break function work only once per odometer mile so that quick power cycles can't cheat it.

 

[Luto]

Hello William, thank you for responding to all the inquries.

In the future will there be a motor that is 100% free of resistance when assist mode is off? I.e. could there be a clutch that disengages the motor when is assist is off?

Thank You in Advance

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Having done some long haul rides, it would be great to have a "break" button that would allow the rider to rest their legs without having to stop (note "Break", not "Brake").

Perhaps the Walk mode button could be programmed so that if held down while above 5 MPH, the bike will maintain the current speed (within class limit) for up to 1/4 mile without pedaling. To ensure the bike isn't considered a Class 2, make it so that if you shift or apply pedal torque, break mode drops and you must pedal the bike to continue riding. Make the break function work only once per odometer mile so that quick power cycles can't cheat it.

Interesting concept, I've never heard of this before.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Hello William, thank you for responding to all the inquries.

In the future will there be a motor that is 100% free of resistance when assist mode is off? I.e. could there be a clutch that disengages the motor when is assist is off?

Thank You in Advance

Hi Luto,

Unfortunately, not likely. Our Gen3 drive unit already has essentially no resistance due to the one-way bearings it uses for power transmission between motor, gearing, and output spindle. Gen4 has a little bit more due to its different, more robust design, though neither Gen3 or Gen4 have as much resistance as Gen2 and it's internal 2.5x gear multiplier. If I can figure out how to upload a video, I can show just how little resistance there is on one of my Gen3 DU's, even with only 100 miles on the odometer. Spoiler: it's less than the resistance on some of my traditional external-cup BB bikes.

While the disengagement feature would be awesome for riding without/above assistance, it would likely prove expensive, bulky, heavy, and eventually unreliable. With the geared power transfer concepts that Bosch uses, I would guess that any future "gains" in low-resistance characteristics will come from more efficient/smoother one-way mechanisms, whether it's bearings like Gen3, or a ratchet like Gen4.

As the eBike industry continues to move towards smaller, lighter, and more cost-effective drive unit designs, I'm personally predicting that designs only get simpler.

Can I ask what you are currently riding?

 

[Luto]

HI William,
I am riding a Moustache Dimanche 29.5 with the Gen 4 performance. Thank you for the information about Gen 3 and Gen 4. One question though, if I ride a lot without the assist, (system ON but no assist), I assume that is OK for the motor? I also assume there is no difference between 1) System ON but no assist, and 2) System OFF?

Again, thanks for taking the time. It is really great to get someone on the Bosch Team for question.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Yes! Completely fine to ride with system ON, but no assist. The advantage to riding with the system ON, even without assist, is that you will have stats tracking, speedometer, lights, and the ability to quickly activate assist if needed.

Glad I could help!

 

[Luto]

William thanks for the reply. I am super happy to hear this. This solves SO many issues. No need for solar charging, no need to charge every night on tours, no need for extra battery. Although the bikes performance is totally different with and without assist, it is like two bikes on finding the speed-cadence-power sweet spot, it is a good and fun challenge to ride.

 

[jtheat]

One big improvement would be the ability to customize the steps between the assist ranges. On the Domane +HP, with Gen 4, the step between Eco and Tour is 60% to 140%, which is too wide (233% step)- this is the zone you need to fine tune to get the most miles. One way would be to have 5 zones like Giant Evo, so you get smaller steps, like a Tour zone at 100% then the next zone around 160%, so the steps between zones is more like 50-60%. Giant Evo also has the ability for the user to fine tune each zone, within a range for each zone - that is the best of all worlds. I hope Bosch will have similar software in the near future for upgrade to Kiosk.

 

[fooferdoggie]

One big improvement would be the ability to customize the steps between the assist ranges. On the Domane +HP, with Gen 4, the step between Eco and Tour is 60% to 140%, which is too wide (233% step)- this is the zone you need to fine tune to get the most miles. One way would be to have 5 zones like Giant Evo, so you get smaller steps, like a Tour zone at 100% then the next zone around 160%, so the steps between zones is more like 50-60%. Giant Evo also has the ability for the user to fine tune each zone, within a range for each zone - that is the best of all worlds. I hope Bosch will have similar software in the near future for upgrade to Kiosk.

yes its too big of a jump. the nyon lets you do that.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I have the Bosch gen 4 motor on my Cannondale Topstone Lefty 3 and I also wish I could adjust my power levels I find eco to be fine, but tour applies too much power. I'd like to be able to dial it back a bit.
This will be solved with my planned upgrade to a Nyon display early in 2021.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

One big improvement would be the ability to customize the steps between the assist ranges. On the Domane +HP, with Gen 4, the step between Eco and Tour is 60% to 140%, which is too wide (233% step)- this is the zone you need to fine tune to get the most miles. One way would be to have 5 zones like Giant Evo, so you get smaller steps, like a Tour zone at 100% then the next zone around 160%, so the steps between zones is more like 50-60%. Giant Evo also has the ability for the user to fine tune each zone, within a range for each zone - that is the best of all worlds. I hope Bosch will have similar software in the near future for upgrade to Kiosk.

Thank you for the feedback. I don't know of any plans to add an additional assistance level, but as a few have mentioned, Nyon allows for this with the purchase of a "premium" feature. Through the eBike Connect app, you can fine-tune the assistance level at a given speed for all 4 assistance modes. It won't allow you to exceed the overall assistance level/speed for a given Drive Unit, but it's very adjustable up to that point. As far as I know, no plans to offer this on Kiox.

Additionally, your particualr model of eBike might be running a semi-custom Container File specific for Trek. Not sure on this, but there might be an option to select a slightly different File when your local shop does your next update.

 

[Dr. Science]

Hi - this is for the Bosch Team and it regards Heart Rate Monitors. I've been using HRMs for fifteen years or so. Use a Garmin device for my non-eBike and never had an issue with HRMs. Now I have an R&M Delite that I've equipped with an original Nyon display. It's superior to anything I've used. Initially I tried to use a 4iiiii HRM that was advertised as being both ANT+ and BLE compatible. The Nyon would not recognize it. Then, based upon some information I found on the Forum, I purchased a Polar HRM. Synced right up. Also works on the Garmin device. Just wondering if there's an interface issue with the Nyon not being able to recognize some HRMs? Couodo you take a look at this? I'm not the only Nyon owner with this issue...
Thanks,
Bob

 

[fooferdoggie]

if it is like the kiox you have to turn the nyon on before the hrm.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

The original Nyon was never offered or supported in NA, so I'm not too familiar with the functionality. This may be a case where you'll have to rely on the forum's members with more hands-on experience, or contact Bosch support in a supported region.

That being said... I can share a few things. If none of this is new to you, my apologies. In general, some devices offer both ANT+ and BTLE, but might use them for different things. Ie: Device X uses BTLE to communicate with a smartphone for secondary features, but uses ANT+ to broadcast HR. It may also be as simple as what fooferdoggie said above- you just need to turn the Bosch display on first.

Sorry I can't be much help on this one.

 

[Keith M]

I'd like Nyon to be compatible with Wahoo hrm. Smarthub does, it would seem easy.

 

[Homet]

WTF Bosch. Just purchased and had my bike shop install the new Nyon V2 and there’s no notifications available on it! How is this right? My £100 Garmin plays all the notifications my iPhone sends it but NOT my £300 Bosch. Unacceptable. If I had know this was lacking, I would have not bought it.

 

[Dallant]

WTF Bosch. Just purchased and had my bike shop install the new Nyon V2 and there’s no notifications available on it! How is this right? My £100 Garmin plays all the notifications my iPhone sends it but NOT my £300 Bosch. Unacceptable. If I had know this was lacking, I would have not bought it.

That’s often one of the problems with proprietary systems. Pricey and very limited. As long as you know that ahead of time, its ok. I’m interested in the Nyon, but am trying to understand it’s limitations and keep my expectations pretty low.