Product Improvement:- Feedback to Bosch.

[carsonjones]

Bosch is not permitted to change the circumference value on an OEM's product, so this will require some help from Cannondale... your shop will have to coordinate with them to check the OEM-programmed Wheel Circumference on your bike against what Cannondale has on record for that model. Assuming the issue is caused by an incorrect circumference value (majority of cases like this are) the rough order of next steps is:

- Shop performs a "roll-out" on your bike with proper tire pressure and approximate rider weight. This won't be the exact circumference number the OEM uses, but it should show what it should be close to. All OEMs use a slightly different factory method to get this value, but again... it should be close.

- Shop checks this roll-out value with Cannondale. Assuming Cannondale finds this to be "off," Cannondale sets up a Remote Diagnostic session with your shop to change this value to what it should be.


There is the 5% "cosmetic" adjustment that the shop can make, but that only alters displayed speed. The bike will still cut-out at the same speed as before, even if it reads a different number. Loose rule of thumb is that if the 5% cosmetic doesn't make it seem right, time to talk to the OEM or Bosch.

All Bosch Systems should cut-out a little before the stated max assist, but this is a smaller value assuming the speed is otherwise correct.

I thought I would come back to address this issue and note that it is still an issue. My bike shop (also Cannondale dealer) reviewed and analyzed the bike and while they agree that there is a speed reading issue, it's not something they can do anything about apparently. Seems they're passing the buck back to Bosch and Bosch, in turn, pass the blame back. Frankly I've had enough of this and with a forced hand IMO, will look to tuning. I'm not clear on why Bosch remain adamant about not allowing customers or their bike shops to tune their bikes to legal limits. By not allowing any kind of system tuning you're opening up the door to customers having to break and void their warranty. I can tell you that while I enjoy riding the bike I'll be looking for other motor options when it comes time to upgrade and purchase a new bike. I'm very disappointed in the Bosch system. It's unacceptable to have the motor cut out at a 4 km/hr average below the legal speed here in Canada (32 km/hr).

 

[William - Bosch Team]

I'm sorry to hear you are still having this issue. I recommend finding a different shop. The shop needs to contact Cannondale, who will in turn work with the shop to resolve your issue. If your eBike is cutting out that far below the legal limit, there is likely an issue with the programmed values from the factory. Normally, Bosch-equipped eBikes ship from the OEM set to cut-off at the legal limit. If your bike is not doing that, it requires attention from a capable dealer and the OEM.

If you'd like, please let me know what city you are in, and I can work with a local technical rep to find you a shop that is capable of helping you fix this issue.

 

[Dallant]

I’m not the OP but was curious if the Bosch experts have any knowledge of this issue...

"Service Indicator" on My Purion Display

After today's ride on my Trek Allant+ 7S, I noticed an unfamiliar wrench icon in the lower right area on my Purion display that, according to the manual, is a "service indicator." However, there's no description in the owner's manual of what that icon means. So, can anyone tell me what this...

electricbikereview.com

 

[fooferdoggie]

I’m not the OP but was curious if the Bosch experts have any knowledge of this issue...

"Service Indicator" on My Purion Display

After today's ride on my Trek Allant+ 7S, I noticed an unfamiliar wrench icon in the lower right area on my Purion display that, according to the manual, is a "service indicator." However, there's no description in the owner's manual of what that icon means. So, can anyone tell me what this...

electricbikereview.com

just time for a checkup. some manufacturers have it programmed in some don't my bulls has never had ot.

 

[carsonjones]

I'm sorry to hear you are still having this issue. I recommend finding a different shop. The shop needs to contact Cannondale, who will in turn work with the shop to resolve your issue. If your eBike is cutting out that far below the legal limit, there is likely an issue with the programmed values from the factory. Normally, Bosch-equipped eBikes ship from the OEM set to cut-off at the legal limit. If your bike is not doing that, it requires attention from a capable dealer and the OEM.

If you'd like, please let me know what city you are in, and I can work with a local technical rep to find you a shop that is capable of helping you fix this issue.

The closest big city is Toronto. That said, I'm done with the 'back and forth' between Bosch and Cannondale. I put the onus on Bosch in this matter. Regardless of bike brand or model, Bosch systems should include a way for customers to adjust their own system while stressing the importance of maintaining legal limits. When users don't have a way of making these changes within a Bosch ecosystem (software) they'll look for other options, which in this case would be a tuning device. Simply put, do better. It's been very frustrating.

 

[Alaskan]

The closest big city is Toronto. That said, I'm done with the 'back and forth' between Bosch and Cannondale. I put the onus on Bosch in this matter. Regardless of bike brand or model, Bosch systems should include a way for customers to adjust their own system while stressing the importance of maintaining legal limits. When users don't have a way of making these changes within a Bosch ecosystem (software) they'll look for other options, which in this case would be a tuning device. Simply put, do better. It's been very frustrating.

The primary way available to the rider to adjust the speed read out and cut off point on Bosch bikes is through setting accurate tire circumference values.

Having had several ebikes with Bosch motor, I have run into a similar problem of speed inaccuracy with my Trek Allant 9.9, a very sophisticated bike from a very customer responsive company.

Under the Bosch ecosystem each manufacturer sets the limits within which the rider can adjust the tire circumference value, usually based on the tire size range that the bike will safely accommodate. The Allant's lower limit was limited to a value above that of the OEM tire that came on the bike when new, resulting in a 1.7mph error at 20 mph.. I needed to be able to tell the system that the tire circumference was smaller as it was set to interpret each revolution of the tire to be a greater distance traveled than it actually was, reaching the speed limitation sooner than I should have.

Expanding the available circumference range to encompass the OEM tire turned out NOT to be something that was available to the local Trek store. They had to have the bike linked into the Trek diagnostic system on the day that one of the few people at Trek corporate tech support could patch in and use his authorization code to expand the maximum circumference available so that the speed value was accurate. In the era of covid, that took some time to accomplish. My patience was rewarded in getting accurate speed values and having the bike performing up to spec.

My point is that you have identified the wrong culprit in your pursuit of more accurate speed readings and thus, assistance up to the stated max. speed. It is most definitely not an issue that Bosch can solve for you. It is totally Cannondale's call. The problem is that the bike tech at the Cannondale shop you are using does not have full understanding of just who is responsible for what.

I suggest you chill for a bit and let @William - Bosch Team guide you to a more competent Cannondale shop that can solve your problem. In my experience with Bosch with six different Bosch powered bikes over the past three years, is that the get on it quickly, are super responsive compared to most and they know way more than most local bike mechanics. Usually protracted resolution of issues boils down to the mechanic thinking he knows more than he does and not getting the job done until he swallows his pride, gets Bosch involved and actually listens to and follows their lead.

By the way, it is important to have actual circumference of your tire on that bike with the pressure you use. The primary way available to the rider to adjust the speed read out and cut off point on Bosch bikes is through setting accurate tire circumference values.

Rim diameter is usually very accurate. Most tires are famously not spot on as to spec, something further complicated by people running various tire pressures. The best way to measure that is to draw a strait perpendicular chalk line at one point on your tire. Mark the floor when it is perpendicular to the ground. Push the bike forward one wheel rotation and mark where the chalk line on the tire is again perpendicular to the floor. Measure the distance between marks for actual rather than theoretical circumference. Then go into the bike settings using whatever display unit you have on the bike and try lowering the circumference value accordingly. If it won't go down far enough, only Cannondale can fix that.

 

[Dallant]

The closest big city is Toronto. That said, I'm done with the 'back and forth' between Bosch and Cannondale. I put the onus on Bosch in this matter. Regardless of bike brand or model, Bosch systems should include a way for customers to adjust their own system while stressing the importance of maintaining legal limits. When users don't have a way of making these changes within a Bosch ecosystem (software) they'll look for other options, which in this case would be a tuning device. Simply put, do better. It's been very frustrating.

I totally get that Bosch doesn’t let owners mess with this stuff. They’re potentially legally vulnerable if they give this capability to the untrained masses. Trying to wade through possible changes owners might make vs Bosch’s LBS community (and the resulting warranty nightmares) likely wouldn’t be worth it to them. It’s silly to think Bosch could just ignore bike makers wishes in this matter.
Just look at all the guys on this site who are totally wanting to blow any existing speed limitations out and are willing to do whatever to get more speed. Bosch could potentially be sued by any number of entities for opening that door/encouraging folks to do their own thing.

 

[carsonjones]

I totally get that Bosch doesn’t let owners mess with this stuff. They’re potentially legally vulnerable if they give this capability to the untrained masses. Trying to wade through possible changes owners might make vs Bosch’s LBS community (and the resulting warranty nightmares) likely wouldn’t be worth it to them. It’s silly to think Bosch could just ignore bike makers wishes in this matter.
Just look at all the guys on this site who are totally wanting to blow any existing speed limitations out and are willing to do whatever to get more speed. Bosch could potentially be sued by any number of entities for opening that door/encouraging folks to do their own thing.

While I agree that liability is a concern, respectfully, I couldn't disagree more with an approach that assumes bike owners are not responsible and not capable. For those who wish to override any safety settings it is very easy to purchase an aftermarket tuning solution that removes any speed limitations. For those of us that wish to obey the law, maintain our warranties, and ride safely, there needs to be a better way of calibrating our ebike systems on our own. In my situation I'm caught in a loop where each of the manufacturers is passing the responsibility back and forth leaving the end user (me) frustrated and without a solution. There has to be a better way. I think it's the responsibility of Bosch to push for that better way.

 

[Dallant]

Best of luck. I’m not against having a bit more control only that I get Bosch’s reasoning. This kind of issue comes up with a lot of motorized products and liability is a definite concern. Its a totally different issue if someone does an aftermarket change to the system.

 

[carsonjones]

The primary way available to the rider to adjust the speed read out and cut off point on Bosch bikes is through setting accurate tire circumference values.

Having had several ebikes with Bosch motor, I have run into a similar problem of speed inaccuracy with my Trek Allant 9.9, a very sophisticated bike from a very customer responsive company.

Under the Bosch ecosystem each manufacturer sets the limits within which the rider can adjust the tire circumference value, usually based on the tire size range that the bike will safely accommodate. The Allant's lower limit was limited to a value above that of the OEM tire that came on the bike when new, resulting in a 1.7mph error at 20 mph.. I needed to be able to tell the system that the tire circumference was smaller as it was set to interpret each revolution of the tire to be a greater distance traveled than it actually was, reaching the speed limitation sooner than I should have.

Expanding the available circumference range to encompass the OEM tire turned out NOT to be something that was available to the local Trek store. They had to have the bike linked into the Trek diagnostic system on the day that one of the few people at Trek corporate tech support could patch in and use his authorization code to expand the maximum circumference available so that the speed value was accurate. In the era of covid, that took some time to accomplish. My patience was rewarded in getting accurate speed values and having the bike performing up to spec.

My point is that you have identified the wrong culprit in your pursuit of more accurate speed readings and thus, assistance up to the stated max. speed. It is most definitely not an issue that Bosch can solve for you. It is totally Cannondale's call. The problem is that the bike tech at the Cannondale shop you are using does not have full understanding of just who is responsible for what.

I suggest you chill for a bit and let @William - Bosch Team guide you to a more competent Cannondale shop that can solve your problem. In my experience with Bosch with six different Bosch powered bikes over the past three years, is that the get on it quickly, are super responsive compared to most and they know way more than most local bike mechanics. Usually protracted resolution of issues boils down to the mechanic thinking he knows more than he does and not getting the job done until he swallows his pride, gets Bosch involved and actually listens to and follows their lead.

By the way, it is important to have actual circumference of your tire on that bike with the pressure you use. The primary way available to the rider to adjust the speed read out and cut off point on Bosch bikes is through setting accurate tire circumference values.

Rim diameter is usually very accurate. Most tires are famously not spot on as to spec, something further complicated by people running various tire pressures. The best way to measure that is to draw a strait perpendicular chalk line at one point on your tire. Mark the floor when it is perpendicular to the ground. Push the bike forward one wheel rotation and mark where the chalk line on the tire is again perpendicular to the floor. Measure the distance between marks for actual rather than theoretical circumference. Then go into the bike settings using whatever display unit you have on the bike and try lowering the circumference value accordingly. If it won't go down far enough, only Cannondale can fix that.

Wheel circumference settings have all been entered correctly and have been confirmed by both my bike shop (Cannondale dealer) and Cannondale. That doesn't seem to be the issue in my case. The assumption that's being made, I think, is that there isn't an issue with the sensors being used by the Bosch system. When I'm riding, the Purion unit shows a speed that is anywhere from 4 - 6 km/hr faster than the actual riding speed being registered (referencing the Wahoo Roam, Wahoo Speed Sensor, and others while on group rides). The problem seems clear to me because I can see and experience it. The bike has been taken in to a Cannondale dealer where they've run a full diagnostic. They worked with Cannondale and both assumed that all of the settings are correct. Bosch have been completely and intentionally left out of the loop as you've noted.

 

[nantycoy]

Rim diameter is usually very accurate. Most tires are famously not spot on as to spec, something further complicated by people running various tire pressures. The best way to measure that is to draw a strait perpendicular chalk line at one point on your tire. Mark the floor when it is perpendicular to the ground. Push the bike forward one wheel rotation and mark where the chalk line on the tire is again perpendicular to the floor. Measure the distance between marks for actual rather than theoretical circumference. Then go into the bike settings using whatever display unit you have on the bike and try lowering the circumference value accordingly. If it won't go down far enough, only Cannondale can fix that.

I do something similar but can I just add that for greater accuracy, I put a zip tie (cut to a point), on the back tyre, ensure it is at the pressure I normally ride at and then, having laid out a tape measure with the zip tie pointing at 0, sit on the bike and propel it forward until the zip tie has done exactly one rotation. That is accurate to 1mm. There is a marked difference between the distance with and without my weight (68kg) on the bike.

 

[Alaskan]

I do something similar but can I just add that for greater accuracy, I put a zip tie (cut to a point), on the back tyre, ensure it is at the pressure I normally ride at and then, having laid out a tape measure with the zip tie pointing at 0, sit on the bike and propel it forward until the zip tie has done exactly one rotation. That is accurate to 1mm. There is a marked difference between the distance with and without my weight (68kg) on the bike.

Great idea and much more accurate than my chalk line. Using stated rim diameter plus 2 time tire width and then extrapolating circumference does not allow for variability of tire dimensions from stated values or tire inflation. Measuring the actual travel in one rotation using this zip tie method is probably the closest we can get to dead on accurate without using some lab's highly sensitive and expensive laser equipment.

 

[webcurl]

SuperDelite 2020 Rohloff HS Issues & Support

I think the misshapen chainring has caused my Rohloff to wear in a weird way as it still clanks and misses shifts more than I think it should but overall You are lowering your pedal power when changing gears? Only a video can describe what you are talking about i think.

electricbikereview.com

 

[Alaskan]

SuperDelite 2020 Rohloff HS Issues & Support

I think the misshapen chainring has caused my Rohloff to wear in a weird way as it still clanks and misses shifts more than I think it should but overall You are lowering your pedal power when changing gears? Only a video can describe what you are talking about i think.

electricbikereview.com

what does this have to do with possible future improvements to Bosch? And your point?

 

[webcurl]

what does this have to do with possible future improvements to Bosch? And your point?

Did you follow the link to post #65?

 

[Johnny]

Wheel circumference settings have all been entered correctly and have been confirmed by both my bike shop (Cannondale dealer) and Cannondale. That doesn't seem to be the issue in my case. The assumption that's being made, I think, is that there isn't an issue with the sensors being used by the Bosch system. When I'm riding, the Purion unit shows a speed that is anywhere from 4 - 6 km/hr faster than the actual riding speed being registered (referencing the Wahoo Roam, Wahoo Speed Sensor, and others while on group rides). The problem seems clear to me because I can see and experience it. The bike has been taken in to a Cannondale dealer where they've run a full diagnostic. They worked with Cannondale and both assumed that all of the settings are correct. Bosch have been completely and intentionally left out of the loop as you've noted.

My experience with the previous gen Bosch cx motor was as follows.

Bosch lets you slightly change the wheel circumference (I believe it was more adjustable previously).
When I decreased the wheel circumference to the minimum possible, which is like a %5 percent decrease, the speedometer read accordingly however I realized that the power cut off also decreased like 0.5-1mph wrt. the speedometer. I can't remember the exact numbers but before adjustment it was around 19mph when it began tapering off , after it was around 18-18.5mph.

This means that although the speedometer can be adjusted, the actual cut off is based on rpm of the wheel(which is probably somewhat hardcoded by Bosch for the specific model of the bike) and not the speedometer.

This may also be what is going on in your case. I don't know if Bosch still uses this practice. However not letting even the LBS to play with any of the parameters is not a good practice.

I don't know how binding the legal side of things are, but I hope Bosch can actually be more flexible in terms of these kinds of adjustments.

 

[Alaskan]

Did you follow the link to post #65?

I did and it is a suggestion for possible improvement for Rohloff not Bosch. It would have to be initiated, tested, proven and implemented by Rohloff before they request and coordinate with Bosch who may or may not agree or be willing to accommodate the added complexity in their system.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

The closest big city is Toronto. That said, I'm done with the 'back and forth' between Bosch and Cannondale. I put the onus on Bosch in this matter. Regardless of bike brand or model, Bosch systems should include a way for customers to adjust their own system while stressing the importance of maintaining legal limits. When users don't have a way of making these changes within a Bosch ecosystem (software) they'll look for other options, which in this case would be a tuning device. Simply put, do better. It's been very frustrating.

If you are willing, please get your case number from the shop (the number they got when they contacted Bosch Service) and send it to me via PM. I can use this to look at your case in our records and see what's going on. It would also help if you could send me a copy of the Diagnostic Report for your bike, from your shop. If your eBike is displaying/cutting-off at the wrong speed, it is something we can get fixed, but I'll need the info. In addition to the report, I'll also need an accurate roll-out from your rear wheel. Needs to be at proper pressure, and with your weight on the seat.

I understand the frustration on wanting the ability to adjust to the legal limit, but there has to be a reference point. In this case, the reference point is the wheel circumference set by Cannondale, and it sounds like this value was programmed incorrectly. If this number is set correctly at the Cannondale factory, then you will be at the legal limit on day one.

 

[carsonjones]

If you are willing, please get your case number from the shop (the number they got when they contacted Bosch Service) and send it to me via PM. I can use this to look at your case in our records and see what's going on. It would also help if you could send me a copy of the Diagnostic Report for your bike, from your shop. If your eBike is displaying/cutting-off at the wrong speed, it is something we can get fixed, but I'll need the info. In addition to the report, I'll also need an accurate roll-out from your rear wheel. Needs to be at proper pressure, and with your weight on the seat.

I understand the frustration on wanting the ability to adjust to the legal limit, but there has to be a reference point. In this case, the reference point is the wheel circumference set by Cannondale, and it sounds like this value was programmed incorrectly. If this number is set correctly at the Cannondale factory, then you will be at the legal limit on day one.

I'm sure you can tell - it's been very frustrating for me. Thank you for offering to help. I'll reach out to my bike shop for the info and will send it out to you asap.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

I understand, and I'd feel the same way in this situation if it were me. I'll wait for the info, and we will get this figured out.