Luna rips off Watt Wagons Hydra?

[TomD]

Pretty sure the Hydra frame was designed by Watt Wagons from an open carbon mold. The open mold would be fair game for another company to copy / work from, but not necessarily the Hydra frame which I believe is the IP of Watt Wagons. If so, sad to see Luna complicit with IP theft and offering this frame now. I believe Dengfu has been offering it to some European customers as well.

Z1 Enduro EBIKE

One of the best fast electric bikes on the market for an incredible price. 2000 watt speed machine.

lunacycle.com

 

[pushkar]

 

[TomD]

Pushkar, perhaps you cannot comment further from a legal perspective. If in fact ths is IP theft, would encourage folks to get the word out. I posted a review on the Luna site advising buyers of potential IP theft, doubt they will publish.

 

[reed scott]

As if I needed any more reasons to despise Luna. A Ws through and through.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

HPC also just came out with something very similar. Base version is 51 lbs.

 

[TomD]

The HPC looks to be using the Dengfu E05 frame which is for the M600 motor. Not really comparable to the Hydra which uses the Ultra motor.

E05

DENGFU E05 is a mountain E-bike. Equipped with BAFANG M600 G521 500W 48V motor and DENGFU Lithium-ion 48V 14Ah 672Wh battery. TORAY T700 carbon fiber frame, 120mm full suspension, internal cable routing, post mount disc brake. used for Trail riding. Normally we use EMS and DPD as our logistics...

www.dengfubike.com

The E05 is a variant of the Dengfu E09 / E10 which are the same frames used in the Luna X1 / X2. Dengfu won't offer the E09 / E10 in North America due to Luna exclusive.

Very skeptical the HPC weighs 51 lbs unless it comes with carbon rims. My Luna X1 is north of 55 pounds.

 

[TomD]

As if I needed any more reasons to despise Luna. A Ws through and through.

I don't know if Watt Wagons worked out something with Dengfu as part of a settlement in exchange for supply of Hydra frames, in which case Luna procuring these frame may be above board. I do know WW was between a rock and a hard place when the frame manufacturer pulled the rug out from underneath them last year. That's why I put the question mark in the title. However, judging by Pushkar's feedback here, it doesn't seem like he's all that thrilled.

 

[tomjasz]

He has always been long on claiming to have invented or designed a number of eBike products. Clearly a copy cat and carny barker. If you followed the development you’d have read the claims of having engineering the carbon frame. A great promoter and with an incredibly useful Bafang centric forum. Still the best BBSxx series troubleshooting threads out there. But as usual it’s a talented employee responsible for the BBSxx trouble thread. The only frame actually, (maybe?) designed by Luna was a total nightmare. But forum bullies put the failures on buyers and builders. No other reseller has produced a better forum or been as big of a devisive force with any competition. No sense of fair play.

 

[Mike_V]

He? He ?
Howsbout Ponzi He & Helios>$$$<

He has always been long on claiming to have invented or designed a number of eBike products. Clearly a copy cat and carny barker. If you followed the development you’d have read the claims of having engineering the carbon frame. A great promoter and with an incredibly useful Bafang centric forum. Still the best BBSxx series troubleshooting threads out there. But as usual it’s a talented employee responsible for the BBSxx trouble thread. The only frame actually, (maybe?) designed by Luna was a total nightmare. But forum bullies put the failures on buyers and builders. No other reseller has produced a better forum or been as big of a devisive force with any competition. No sense of fair play.

 

[Zachdds]

The story was told different to me. The Helios was Pushkar baby and dengfu was not willing to recognize that and was willing to sell it to others. I was told that the hydra was always open source and could be sold to anyone.

my guess is that due to purchasing power, all of Luna’s bike will be built before watts wagon gets anymore. That is probably why people are seeing the delays. As long as Luna keeps buying all the bikes that dengfu can produce then the little guys will just have to wait.

 

[rtp]

The story was told different to me. The Helios was Pushkar baby and dengfu was not willing to recognize that and was willing to sell it to others. I was told that the hydra was always open source and could be sold to anyone.

my guess is that due to purchasing power, all of Luna’s bike will be built before watts wagon gets anymore. That is probably why people are seeing the delays. As long as Luna keeps buying all the bikes that dengfu can produce then the little guys will just have to wait.

I hope that's not the case - Dengfu should have some fairly significant manufacturing capacity.

I did bite on the X2, as after several come-to-Jesus convos with self, while I love what Pushkar is doing and the Archon/Innotrace controller, I still wanted an M600 build (originally hoping WW would release an M600 controller later), and I couldn't build the bike for the price from Luna... will be interesting as they now have a seemingly real controller in the Ludi v2, VESC-based..

Only Pushkar knows the agreement with WW and Dengfu - if it was a timed exclusive or possibly even not at all. If it was perpetual, I expect lawyers to get involved pretty quickly, although I'd be shocked as that's a liability no sane business owner would bring on (e.g. Luna)...

 

[Haystacks]

Dengfu manufacture carbon bike frames, nothing to do with helios. Dengfu manufacture some frames that the wider public can buy, some boutique brands purchased some of these frames and built branding around them pretending they designed them, some 'brands' purchased regional exclusivity on 1 frame type others on another frame type. These frames were available to the public waay before pushkar and eric luna started using them. X1 was before Hydra.

Pushkar is not innotrace. Like pushkar is not SRAM or Fox.

 

[scrambler]

If it was perpetual, I expect lawyers to get involved pretty quickly, although I'd be shocked as that's a liability no sane business owner would bring on (e.g. Luna)...

Let us face it, there is no way a startup like WattWagons could take a company like Dengfu to court.
So, whatever happened, Pushkar probably just had to swallow and move on...

 

[Zachdds]

Dengfu manufacture carbon bike frames, nothing to do with helios. Dengfu manufacture some frames that the wider public can buy, some boutique brands purchased some of these frames and built branding around them pretending they designed them, some 'brands' purchased regional exclusivity on 1 frame type others on another frame type. These frames were available to the public waay before pushkar and eric luna started using them. X1 was before Hydra.

Pushkar is not innotrace. Like pushkar is not SRAM or Fox.

Good to know. I was under the impression that the same company making the hydra frames were also making the Helios frames for the founders back when the whole thing went up in smoke.

 

[greeno]

The same carbon frames have been around for awhile. As far as Innotrace is concerned Pushkar uses their product that they manufacturer I think they had something to do with Exess bikes over in Germany originally.
Innotrace offer up the same bike ( Hydra ) overseas under a different name ( Black Forrest X3 ).
The Z1 bike from Eric is going to be competition for WW if they can supply what they advertise. Looks like they are supplying motors with the UART programming plugs so program mods are possible as opposed to the CANBUS style, which I'm sure will be hacked in the future but that's then and this is now.
Free market at work.
This is the perfect time when reliable, honest, prompt customer service helps you keep your customers from going elsewhere. $ is not the driving issue here as we all know.

 

[Acme]

Let us face it, there is no way a startup like WattWagons could take a company like Dengfu to court.
So, whatever happened, Pushkar probably just had to swallow and move on...

This is pretty much the truth here. The Chinese are in the driver seat because they have all the power here. They do what they want and Pushkar has to grin and bear it. Luna pounced on an opportunity to take advantage of a rival. They could’ve acted differently but they didn’t. Pushkar‘s business is different from Luna. Luna does very little in the house. They bring everything in on a freighter, take the boxes out of the container and send them out to the customer. I see people complain about Pushkar‘s customer service as of late but if they check out Luna on discussion boards I think I might be taking a different town when talking about Pushkar.
I thought very strongly about ordering one of the M600 bikes for $4200 but I know I would be spending $2000 more customizing it. Im going to wait until someone comes out with a better M600.

 

[greeno]

Just buy the basics and build up the bike yourself. That way you get what you want. Parts is parts.

 

[JRA]

"I thought very strongly about ordering one of the M600 bikes for $4200"

Apparently plenty of folks did pull that trigger and the X2's went out of stock within around 24hrs......so given the lead time it took for version 2 to get here I wouldn't expect v3 being around anytime soon as the supply chain isn't getting much relief. Which means crickets for this format in NAmerica no matter what you expect the build to be like.

As far as the Z1 goes the title here is a bit harsh I feel as although Luna has not been the most friendly company in the market place assuming the whole innocent until proven guilty clause that seems to have been forgotten in this day and age still applies. Dengfu has been very strict with their agreement with Luna not to sell the original X1 frame style into NAmerica and one would assume that if WW had a similar agreement with the Z frame that would be the case as well.

I do respect Luna for not taking advance orders and stringing folks along:


"The Z1 bike from Eric is going to be competition for WW if they can supply what they advertise."

From another forum:

"I called Luna to make sure my order is squared away and the guy I talked to said the bikes are in stock and they're just configuring them as they're ordered"

Crowd source funding and advance ordering can work but it sure seems like it can also turn into a world of woe for customers and manufacturers, and in some cases I use that term loosely. That is why I personally have avoided going down that rabbit hole although I have been in the market for a more modern eBike for awhile.

 

[tomjasz]

He? He ?
Howsbout Ponzi He & Helios>$$$<

Hey Mike! Long time no see! I knew I could count on you!

 

[George S.]

Eric Hicks. Without a single doubt he is and was one of the most influential people in ebikes. From my point of view, Hicks brought toxic masculinity to ebikes more than any other person. So he brings the politics of division and a version of the culture wars to the ebike arena.

I wrote a basic piece about why DIY mattered, which went in his online magazine. It was XX reasons to build an ebike. He used it on the Home page of his website for a lot of months. He didn’t pay well, and he paid in store credits. I think it was $300 per article. He was toying with the idea of giving me some sort of editorial control over the magazine, but he seemed like someone who would never give up control over anything. I wanted to do a story on a brilliant carbon ebike (DIY, BBS02) with a Rohloff hub and very upscale components, throughout. He just resisted and resisted. It wasn’t his baby. Toward the end, I had a two hour phone conversation where he was just selling and selling, trying to gain control. I sent an article about how ebikes needed to stay within the power limits, and go to real off road status if they wanted to do high power. It was never published.

He could not let go. Narcissism, I’d guess. That was my experience. The last article I wrote was about batteries, and how they could be assembled cheaply, charged easily. He did publish this, reluctantly, but he never paid me. I pursued it a couple of times, but I am thrilled to have the guy as an enemy. We are in almost complete disagreement on where ebikes should go.

It will be interesting to see if Luna has a great relationship with Bafang, over the long haul. Bafang and Eunorau, a US ebike company and partner, but clearly out of China, are sort of fudging the BBSHD and the M numbered versions. It isn’t clear who gets CAN bus and who has an open battery. Luna makes it sound like they have a great relationship with Bafang and they can sell products that may not be available to other companies. I don’t want a 2000 watt motor with the Mr. Macho programming. But a lot of people do. The problem is, the door Luna opens will lead to more and more cycles like this, sort of like an ebike, but not really, and no way to make it legal. Luna has much better copy writers now. They make this bike seem really special. It’s a niche, people who want to pretend to be an EMTB but with a lot of power.\