Luna rips off Watt Wagons Hydra?

[rtp]

I don’t think Pushkar has given up working on his M600 with good CG and aftermarket controller project I mentioned several months ago. I believe it will out class the Luna X2, we will just have to wait and see. I have the first one reserved but I am patient.

Wil we then have an ‘OMG WW Rips off X1/X2’ thread to continue the ‘fun’?
Surprised the thread is still alive honestly.

I’d love to have both a WW M600/Archon and the X2/VESC Ludi controller…even if/when they likely are otherwise using the same or nearly so frames and other components…

 

[rtp]

Not Correct. E 10 is the same as the Luna X2 with an M 600. Wattwagons Hydra is an E 22. Pushkar custom made the rear suspension for the E22. Engineered it as well adding interior steel at brake mounting post for support as they had many failures in development. For this he was supposed to have exclusivity in the US for a period of time. This did not happen.

What was the period of time? Are you still blaming Luna here or has any ’blame’ at least passed on to Dengfu (unless it’s expired..?)

 

[BarnBoy]

Not Correct. E 10 is the same as the Luna X2 with an M 600. Wattwagons Hydra is an E 22. Pushkar custom made the rear suspension for the E22. Engineered it as well adding interior steel at brake mounting post for support as they had many failures in development. For this he was supposed to have exclusivity in the US for a period of time. This did not happen.

I found a Dengfu E22 on Alibaba but it clearly is NOT a Hydra….
-BB

See it here….

 

[rtp]

I found a Dengfu E22 on Alibaba but it clearly is NOT a Hydra….
-BB

See it here….

What differences are you seeing vs the Ali version? Maybe good news and if an agreement is still i effect, maybe Dengfu is still honoring the terms? Ping them and see if they'll sell to the US - I bet their response is no, but ... ?

 

[TomD]

Wil we then have an ‘OMG WW Rips off X1/X2’ thread to continue the ‘fun’?
Surprised the thread is still alive honestly.

I’d love to have both a WW M600/Archon and the X2/VESC Ludi controller…even if/when they likely are otherwise using the same or nearly so frames and other components…

Not sure why you are mocking the thread and using false equivalency to compare pirating the Hydra frame to generic builds with E09/E10 which are open molds.

In my conversations with Pushkar a year or so ago (when Hydra was announced), I was told WW was designing an exclusive M600 FS carbon frame (not the E09/E10). I suspect that fell apart when the Hydra frame design exclusivity was not honored.

 

[greeno]

Maybe I'm missing something but isn't the M600 the smaller motor, it's not the M620 (G510) which is on the Luna Z1 bike. I know the X1 has the M600 but I don't think that is the subject of this thread. I might be wrong but I don't think Mr. P. has an Archon controller config for the M600.

 

[rtp]

Tom - I guess the original post just irked me, as any issue is solely between Dengfu and WW; every other vendor is effectively buying from the same set of actual manufacturers or suppliers but the title was a witch hunt targeting the wrong place. I’m not privy to whatever agreement Puskhkar had with Dengfu, and hope they sort it out.

I have been in a similar position in business and don’t like dealing with companies lacking integrity, let alone if a binding contract was in place…but if a contract was breached it was Dengfu and not Luna, regardless of if people like or hate Luna or their owner etc.

I don’t have firsthand knowledge of what level of frame actual design or changes came from WW, nor of the contract terms. There’s a wide range of things that could be claimed as ‘design’ which can range from normal product feeedback to real engineering effort and many levels in between. I routinely do product walkthroughs, demos and someimes quite technically deep discussions with customers, and sometimes some of those discussions lead to features or enhancements - I would not say those discussions constituted IP of customers/prospects vs feedback and understanding of customer needs.

If Dengfu reneged on a signed valid contract, thats BS and I hope WW is made legally whole. If there was real engineering/co-design and Dengfu reneged, well that’s more despicable, but that issue is in Dengfu squarely IMO.

Hope that makes some sense. Different people in this thread may well have unique or different info, presumably from discussions with Pushkar. I like the things WW is doing, and wish them and Pushkar well, but I don’t think anyone has the signed legal document in hand so there are elements of he said/she said going on while blaming someone other than the actual faulty party (Dengfu) if a valid contract clause was breached. Meanwhile, if Pushkar is seeking any legal recourse it’s usually best he doesn’t engage in open/forum convo yet he’s the only oe short of the contract that could clarify reality of the situation IMO.

I should have kept my prior post in mind and just checked out of this thread, as it’s really not doing WW any good (think about new buyers considering a WW and some of the forum thread messes), and I do wish him/WW well, so going to try to stick to keeping out of this thread further.

 

[scrambler]

While you are right that ultimately the issue would be with Dengfu for breaking its agreement with WW, there is still the possibility that they would only have done that because Luna used their buying power to strong arm them into it with the opportunity of more $.

While that would be a legitimate business practice on the part of Luna, one could argue it would have been a jerk move.

All that said, and as you mentioned, none of us really have all the details, so debating this over and over is kind of pointless

 

[TomD]

In my conversations with pushkar a year ago he used the term Luna X2, which at the time I assumed was just an educated guess as to an updated Luna X1 with the E10 frame. However, in hindsight it seems more likely that Pushkar was in the know that the X2 was on the way back in December of last year so would be shocked if Luna would have been oblivious to what was going on with the Hydra frame given that Luna allegedly has exclusivity for the X1 and X2 frames. It would be surprising to think that the exclusivity conversation never came up between Luna and Dengfu in regards to the Hydra frame. My guess is Luna didn't give two Fs as long as Dengfu was willing to offer them the frame. Even if they weren't directly complicit, I wouldn't say that excuses them from indirect IP theft. We don't really know all the details and it's certainly possible that as part of a deal with Dengfu to procure continued production of Hydra frames that's what pushkar was forced to do to save his business. Founders were told that someone had bought out most of Dengfu's manufacturing capacity which pretty much killed Helios.

 

[Toddzilla]

Luna X2 is the E10 frame (different motor) with Luna having exclusive for bafang M600.
Luna Z1 is the bafang m620 using the E22 frame similar to the Wattwagons Hydra. E23 frame is the fat tire option on rear triangle which I only see on the Hydra. I thought Wattwagons had an exclusive on E22/23 frame but apparently not. Even the Biktrix Monte Carlo ultra looks like a copy except for a small added wedge where the rear shock connects. All share the same 48v battery and down tube styling Luna X2, Z1, Hydra black (whenever it arrives) and Biktrix Monte Carlo ultra. The only Wattwagons exclusive I see are 52v battery packs, customized paint and components, and available Archon X1 controller.

 

[tomjasz]

When one of the players has over half a decade of pirating and feigning designer, there’s cause for suspicion.

 

[BarnBoy]

What differences are you seeing vs the Ali version? Maybe good news and if an agreement is still i effect, maybe Dengfu is still honoring the terms? Ping them and see if they'll sell to the US - I bet their response is no, but ... ?

Look at the rear shock mount. Front is the same, but rear triangle connection is COMPLETELY different from the Hydra/Z1. This confirms the comments from @Acme and @Toddzilla ….
And why would I want to test if I could purchase a POC frame from Alibaba????!!!!????!!! Do it your self….
-BB

PS the serial number on my frame confirms a Hydra is an E22….

 

[loamoaf]

Wow, caught up on this thread. Rainy weekend and can't sleep so I figured why not do some reading. I've seen E of L recommend to someone on reddit who had their bike stolen to carry one of those CO₂ bb handguns to brandish at thieves - really don't have any respect for the guy after that kind of stupid advice that could get someone killed (or landed in legal hot water) and this thread hasn't done anything to change my opinion of him. Reminds me of a certain other guy out in Philly assembling what are essentially electric motorcycles with bicycle parts (complete with DT Swiss hubs with drilled out flanges to accommodate motorcycle spokes, rims, and tires) and posting videos riding his 120+lb machines on sidewalks and through red lights... not a good ambassador for ebikes when there's a big group of people out there treating them like motorcycles that are without responsibility or consequence.

I had seen an E22 frame being sold on ebay from Seraph earlier this year but it was marked as for an EP8000 motor and not an M620 - though that was kind of brought into question by some details in the product listing. Actually here's a video from Tantan posted in July of last year showing the E22 frame with what appears to be M620 mounting - the same paint job I saw in the listing. Whether WW got burned by Dengfu or burned by the nature of the business over there it's a big bummer, especially if he put in any kind of effort to develop the frame as it is now or had any sort of contracts with them. I think the unfortunate reality of those open mold designs and the way some businesses operate over there is that if you make some tweaks to it and get exclusive rights to it with company A, company B can still try to copy those tweaks on that design and sell it to whoever will buy if they think it will be competitive, or even try to secure a unit and copy it directly with minor cosmetic changes. If WW did indeed have an exclusive deal with the frame manufacturer and they were violating that agreement, there would be avenues for recourse within the US that involve customs siezing the items in question. While there may be little the US could do about a foreign company violating the agreement they can certainly go after companies/items that are here that are party to the violation of contract (theft of intellectual property) if indeed the exclusive rights had been purchased and there's a paper trail etc.

 

[BarnBoy]

Wow, caught up on this thread. Rainy weekend and can't sleep so I figured why not do some reading. I've seen E of L recommend to someone on reddit who had their bike stolen to carry one of those CO₂ bb handguns to brandish at thieves - really don't have any respect for the guy after that kind of stupid advice that could get someone killed (or landed in legal hot water) and this thread hasn't done anything to change my opinion of him. Reminds me of a certain other guy out in Philly assembling what are essentially electric motorcycles with bicycle parts (complete with DT Swiss hubs with drilled out flanges to accommodate motorcycle spokes, rims, and tires) and posting videos riding his 120+lb machines on sidewalks and through red lights... not a good ambassador for ebikes when there's a big group of people out there treating them like motorcycles that are without responsibility or consequence.

I had seen an E22 frame being sold on ebay from Seraph earlier this year but it was marked as for an EP8000 motor and not an M620 - though that was kind of brought into question by some details in the product listing. Actually here's a video from Tantan posted in July of last year showing the E22 frame with what appears to be M620 mounting - the same paint job I saw in the listing. Whether WW got burned by Dengfu or burned by the nature of the business over there it's a big bummer, especially if he put in any kind of effort to develop the frame as it is now or had any sort of contracts with them. I think the unfortunate reality of those open mold designs and the way some businesses operate over there is that if you make some tweaks to it and get exclusive rights to it with company A, company B can still try to copy those tweaks on that design and sell it to whoever will buy if they think it will be competitive, or even try to secure a unit and copy it directly with minor cosmetic changes. If WW did indeed have an exclusive deal with the frame manufacturer and they were violating that agreement, there would be avenues for recourse within the US that involve customs siezing the items in question. While there may be little the US could do about a foreign company violating the agreement they can certainly go after companies/items that are here that are party to the violation of contract (theft of intellectual property) if indeed the exclusive rights had been purchased and there's a paper trail etc.

@loamoaf - looks like that E22 is the same E22 on the Alibaba advertisement I mentioned. Neither are the Hydra E22 (shock to swingarm mount is different!)
-BB

 

[rtp]

Looks like other Dengfu agreements have either lapsed or Dengfu is dissolving/ignoring them.
New Biktrix bike, ‘Monte Capro Lite’ - sure looks to be using the E10/Luna X frame: https://www.biktrix.com/pages/monte-capro-lite
I suppose it’s possible it could be ‘but we’re a Canadian company’ (Biktrix) although they also have a US business location.

*shrug* - I suspect more than anything Dengfu is in the driver’s seat as one of very few making decent CF frames for Bafang motors, so is trying to cplitalize on that and dissolving agreements.

 

[JRA]

Correct me if I'm wrong as I haven't really been following the development of the Hydra from the start but it seems like there are some that have the ability to mount 4"+ tires? For sure the Z1 has no such capacity and is that change to the rear triangle the proprietary feature that WW has with DengFu as it seems like I read somewhere that WW had tweaked the rear triangle for the Hydra at the start?

There is no denying the popularity that is arising of these type of FS Full Power bikes even though they skirt the edges of legality here in the U.S. and actually anywhere on the globe due to their peak watt ability and potential top speed under power.

After a mode 3 only ride yesterday here it certainly is plain to me that these bikes are able to go much faster than "legal" ebikes up and across with the weight also having an effect on down speeds also with the power on idle. However at the expense of wh/mi leaving range to be an issue even with a pretty big 840wh battery if doing so. More than enough though for the 20ish mile loops I have out the door if I am ever in a sporting mood as it stands.

My buddy that is 17yrs my junior that I mostly ride with has a Yamaha/Giant and in the past riding with him I have not been able to keep up on the ups in high assist on my TSDZ2 DIY bike nor in the steep sections of our woods trails. It will be interesting to see how we sync now that I have more power on tap yet not wanting to totally blow him away either for the sake of range.

My other riding buddy has a Levo that when we get together we ride mostly single track, the Wilson River Trails fyi, and he has had a distinct advantage on the ups mainly due to the fact that he has a much lower gear to tap into I feel which especially on switchbacks makes a difference. I still want to reduce the front ring on my bike to imitate this and I think the only way to do this is with a Christini adapter but I fear it will set the ring outboard too much....then also his bike has a much better FS and I feel now with what I have we will be more equal on the downs.

My part time riding buddy who is older than me but a very good road rider has gotten a Z1 also and is working on getting it dialed in for his needs. It will be interesting to get together with him after the holidays for a logging road rip on equal terms.

Speaking of which, to heck with "gravel" bikes such as are popular although I have a few e versions of my own there is no comparison to how well a good FS bike with some heft to help stabilize it can handle any type of gravel from fine to fat with aplomb and speed that will have you covering your brakes....the big tires don't deflect hardly at all and the weight works to your advantage keeping the bike feeling more planted as the suspension soaks up most of the vibrations. I use 15psi front and rear tubeless btw that does alot to dampen the low frequency vibrations. While I like my 45c bikes you have to be way more conscious of your tires especially on the fatter chunks of gravel I run into.

 

[TomD]

New Biktrix bike, ‘Monte Capro Lite’ - sure looks to be using the E10/Luna X frame: https://www.biktrix.com/pages/monte-capro-lite

"Just over 40 pounds"

So light you're going to pedal without battery. Seriously though, even without battery, I think they're still fibbing by at least 5 pounds. No way it's lighter than the Luna X1 which tips my scales at 55 pounds, with a smaller battery.

 

[bexamous]

I mean as a consumer, not sure how exclusive reseller benefits me.

 

[JRA]

So light you're going to pedal without battery. Seriously though, even without battery, I think they're still fibbing by at least 5 pounds. No way it's lighter than the Luna X1 which tips my scales at 55 pounds, with a smaller battery.

Ha, more like 10lbs. plus I would say.....RST/Tektro/no name rims/hubs don't exactly spell lightweight/performance nor durability either for that matter? Dependent on projected rider abuse of course. What was it that old KB used to say?

Thing is that there is a big demand for the E10 type bike on the market as far as I can tell based pretty much on its price point being under $5k, assuming the BikTrix one is, no info on that as I am not giving out my email to anything that warns Facebook might get ahold of it.

Problem is that by using no name/off brand components people reach for the buy it now button on all sorts of "upgrades" that are stock on bikes of a higher price? It seems no one is happy with just riding around on an off the UPS/FedEx truck bike without putting some sort of twist to it even if its a set of grips that they prefer. In my case I would wager that I have now spent close to a grand extra in dialing in my bike.....

Did I need a new wheelset? No probably not but the slack of engagement of the stock one was bugging me and I wanted to go mullet. Did I need to swap out the shifter/display/dropper lever? In the case of the shifter yes because that is my personal preference and not available on any of the other models out there that I can see. But the other things I could have lived with but chose not to.

So in the end I did end up spending slightly over $5k all in when I said I would "never". Did I get the bike I really think suits me for where and how I ride? Probably but still to be determined....

Did it cost more than my car? Or should I say cars? Almost. Do I care? Nope. Do I see others taking much higher initial cost eBikes and doing even more expensive upgrades on them? All the time.

 

[rtp]

So light you're going to pedal without battery. Seriously though, even without battery, I think they're still fibbing by at least 5 pounds. No way it's lighter than the Luna X1 which tips my scales at 55 pounds, with a smaller battery.

Yeah, noticed that one as well. The only real chance for weight savings there of any significance might be in the wheels - the Alex rims do seem to be heavy.
A swap to CF wheels and going tubeless netted someone around 5#. I’m in process of swapping wheels and going tubeless but my new scale was DOA out of the box.

Plus as you said - kinda need the battery