Luna rips off Watt Wagons Hydra?

[TomD]

only thing I would change on either the X2 or Z1 would be a set of 29" wheels just because I haven't had a bike without at least one 700c wheel on it since 1999. For sure the front wheel mullet setup to start out as that is what I have been using for the last 3 years but as I ride mostly dirt roads and not too tech single track these days I might go full 29"er and gain a little extra pedal clearance.

Pedal strike is pretty bad on the M600, at least on my X1. As you note, that might be mitigated with 29" wheels or going mullet. I believe Luna now only ships with shorter cranks. I switched to them and while it dramatically reduced the pedal srike issues, they feel somewhat unnatural to me, almost like I'm pedaling a kid's bike. It also felt like a LOT more of a workout. Upside is it resolved the issue I had with the original firmware being unusable at PAS 1-2 of 5, because I needed a LOT more assist, lol.

 

[Acme]

I'm sorry but I'm done with Bafang mid drives and Bafang's horseshit parts stream. And soon it seems the BBSxx series will die off and we'll be left holding that bag with out parts support. And forced like Bosch and others to have no DIY repair support. I have 3 2014 and 2015 motors with no replacement gears or controllers. 6 years of customer support of BBSxx series motors, only to be leftist in the cold.

What motor are you going to?

 

[rtp]

"the E5 claims 120mm rear travel (another Dengfu frame), so which others are left? Not many."

FLX Weapon comes to mind with what looks to me like the E5 frame w/M600 but I am not a fan of their whole advance marketing dangle a pic and leave out the details, like geo and $$ and a big difference between a 120mm and 160mm bike for sure .

I think I choked through a few minutes of video - reminded me of 90’s late night infomercials…wasn’t even a consideration. I’m sure its possible to get more, but how much more?

Having gone through most of the other available options to the Zed1 here today outside of Alibaba bs though it seems like Luna's price is hard to beat. All the others are $6k usd/eu or more it seems. The whole 2500w thing isn't my bag and in fact I would probably run an Ultra @ 20A so the other controller options wouldn't do me any good. Component wise it is certainly name brand enough to get by for at least until something breaks for 99% of the riding public. Sometimes I shake my head in wonder at those that buy even expensive bikes and then go to town with even more expensive replacements. But to each his own.

Yeah, well - power can be both fun and addictive, but I’ll be going from a 1kW BBSHD to an M600, originally OE programming as no WW/Archon option yet, but had to go with the programmable controller option on the X2. I’m in PAS 2 of 9 on my BBSHD 90% of the time after seeing battery life, and want the option of more of a workout (and feel) than cadence sensing can easily provide. I’d wager most don’t run their Ultras, including WW Hydras on full assist a majority of the time.

Seriously about the only thing I would change on either the X2 or Z1 would be a set of 29" wheels just because I haven't had a bike without at least one 700c wheel on it since 1999. For sure the front wheel mullet setup to start out as that is what I have been using for the last 3 years but as I ride mostly dirt roads and not too tech single track these days I might go full 29"er and gain a little extra pedal clearance.

Complete unknown on the hubs at this point still. Maybe an unfounded concern but will see, or have a DT Swiss H1700 or 1900 rear wheel built down the line.. which in itself would be pushing towards Hydra (non-Black) territory but still be parts-wise better than the Biktrix..

 

[rtp]

Pedal strike is pretty bad on the M600, at least on my X1. As you note, that might be mitigated with 29" wheels or going mullet. I believe Luna now only ships with shorter cranks. I switched to them and while it dramatically reduced the pedal srike issues, they feel somewhat unnatural to me, almost like I'm pedaling a kid's bike. It also felt like a LOT more of a workout. Upside is it resolved the issue I had with the original firmware being unusable at PAS 1-2 of 5, because I needed a LOT more assist, lol.

Trying to sort what they’re shipping with, but was wondering the effect on pedaling leverage. Just LOL all around on everything you wrote above (well, or look for a facepalm emoji ) What length crank arms do you have now, and OEs were 170mm on the M600?

 

[TomD]

OEs are 170mm. The shorter cranks are 150mm. One user review indicates the shorter cranks now come standard. Seems most don't mind the shorter cranks, so maybe it was just me. It felt like I was having to spin faster and my legs were begging for mercy on sustained climbs. Could have been I was just way out of shape. Was the last ride of the season. I'll keep using the 150mm because the 170mm are somewhat dangerous if you're not careful on the downhill.

LUNA X1 Enduro Short Crank Arms

Providers of quality ebikes, electric bike batteries, motors and components at affordable pricing.

lunacycle.com

 

[greeno]

Going from the 170mm crank arms to the 160mm made a big difference for me with my riding style. Hesitated on the 152mm size as I was leary on the 160's when I ordered them.
Put them on and never looked back. Cant tell the difference at all.
Note: I do have a 29" front wheel set-up along with the 27.5" in the rear and I'm sure that helps too.

 

[mschwett]

Oh to be Russian!

i prefer to be leftist in the mild california sun

 

[JRA]

@rtp I'm coming from a few angles as I have front hub drop bar bikes with 1000+w motors that will do 30+ and chew up wh's as a result but my eMtb use has been restricted to TSDZ2 use that has always featured a decent torque assist. However I would say for both I average less than 500w use, more like 350w in practice as I am in it for the pedaling.

Having followed the M600's progress from it's introduction I think like 4 years ago now and waiting somewhat impatiently for a bike that I felt had modern enough geo, although my eMtb is anything but as it was made in 2005, and other up to date features I have been lacking the X2 was what I was waiting for it is just funny that I missed the boat as obviously I wasn't the only one in the wings.

However I still am on the fence if the M600 is all that it should be as it seems like the EU guys that have made some really nice rigs out of the E10 frames and others have all had a bit of a struggle getting things sorted and in the end it is basically still barely on par with the Bosch/Brose systems that have far better software it seems and certainly access to service.

But I am not getting any younger and don't feel like waiting for V3 or paying over $6k for a bike of any sort as a matter of principal so I bit the weight bullet and ordered the Zed1. I'll deal with it as above and see what happens.

Nearest bike shop of any consequence to me is over 100miles away and I think that the Ultra motor if run at low A with steel gears should provide a reliable system. if I can manage the drivetrain wear by good shifting it should hold up there but those parts are expendable and I can source and fix them myself anyway as I do now.

Main concern is the weight as none of my current bikes weigh over 50lbs.. I do run into a few downed logs after storms here on the coast but usually go back with my eSaw and remove them. Handling wise we will see but the fact that it has way more travel than my current bike should make up for that. TomD's report of pedal strikes with the X1 is kind of disturbing but it makes sense to me that longer travel bikes seem to have that issue because they do have longer travel and bb's can only be so high so it is something I'll have to get used to I guess.

Another thought that could help in the day to day weight dept. is making up a lesser wh battery as the stock battery for my daily use is overkill. I am imagining that should be possible as others have made batteries for their "Cheebs". For sure I would use 2700 cells as I have them in my other DIY bikes and like their performance. Not sure what LG cells are in the Luna bikes as they don't provide that info......I'll decide on what size after riding the stock battery for awhile to see what consumption I am using. In fact IIRC when the M600 was first introduced Bafang said they were going to make a few different size batteries like 350w/500w/750w for it but that never has transpired?

I helped out in an eBike shop for awhile and assembled quite a few BBSHD bikes and rode them enough to get that their cadence PAS wasn't going to work for me. If this is your first torque sensing PAS then I am sure you will like it right away.

As far as the thread title goes I don't have any problems after doing some research on Luna's use of this frame.

 

[rtp]

@rtp I'm coming from a few angles as I have front hub drop bar bikes with 1000+w motors that will do 30+ and chew up wh's as a result but my eMtb use has been restricted to TSDZ2 use that has always featured a decent torque assist. However I would say for both I average less than 500w use, more like 350w in practice as I am in it for the pedaling.

Having followed the M600's progress from it's introduction I think like 4 years ago now and waiting somewhat impatiently for a bike that I felt had modern enough geo, although my eMtb is anything but as it was made in 2005, and other up to date features I have been lacking the X2 was what I was waiting for it is just funny that I missed the boat as obviously I wasn't the only one in the wings.

However I still am on the fence if the M600 is all that it should be as it seems like the EU guys that have made some really nice rigs out of the E10 frames and others have all had a bit of a struggle getting things sorted and in the end it is basically still barely on par with the Bosch/Brose systems that have far better software it seems and certainly access to service.

All understandable. Had similar concerns and had asked Pushkar RE: an Archon option for M600 as a result. (said it’s been running in lab, hopefully see sometime next year second half or later, which is generally good news for all).

The Ultra is certainly more overbuilt, but after digging in a bit on VESC, the guy who likely built the controller (marcos), and his prior projects, as well as his engagement in the community - I have some good level of confidence in the ‘new’ M600 controller. A few links:

VESC Project

vesc-project.com

| Details | Hackaday.io

<p>This project was released in endless-sphere forum, here's the thread where the discussion takes place: <a href="https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=89056&start=250#p1458465">https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=89056&start=250#p1458465</a></p>...

hackaday.io

Axiom: a 100kW+ motor controller

/***************************************************************************************/ Jump to page 11 for the latest hardware! https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=89056&start=250#p1458465...

endless-sphere.com

But I am not getting any younger and don't feel like waiting for V3 or paying over $6k for a bike of any sort as a matter of principal so I bit the weight bullet and ordered the Zed1. I'll deal with it as above and see what happens.

Yep - if the X2 hadn’t have popped at the right time for me or sold out, I might well have done the same, although undoubtedly would prefer the WW controller..but at least you can adjust the settings on the UART Ultra in it…

Nearest bike shop of any consequence to me is over 100miles away and I think that the Ultra motor if run at low A with steel gears should provide a reliable system. if I can manage the drivetrain wear by good shifting it should hold up there but those parts are expendable and I can source and fix them myself anyway as I do now.

Yep. I’ve taken the line that 8-10 speeds are fine with assist, with some inherent added strengths (ok, short of SRAM $$$$$$ drivetrain. Will see how the NX 11s feels and go from there as to hat I replace it with as it wears out.

Main concern is the weight as none of my current bikes weigh over 50lbs.. I do run into a few downed logs after storms here on the coast but usually go back with my eSaw and remove them. Handling wise we will see but the fact that it has way more travel than my current bike should make up for that. TomD's report of pedal strikes with the X1 is kind of disturbing but it makes sense to me that longer travel bikes seem to have that issue because they do have longer travel and bb's can only be so high so it is something I'll have to get used to I guess.

LOL on ‘eSaw’ - I held out a looong time vs going cordless but nowadays have a ton of Makita - saw, impact wrench, line trimmer, etc. They’re great!
I think the Ultra positioning inherently has more clearance - I’m surprised but seems to be the case. Might be worth considering an added bash guard or making one from Kydex and a heat gun. Haven’t hit the issue on ebike but plenty of times on dual-sport motorcycles…

Another thought that could help in the day to day weight dept. is making up a lesser wh battery as the stock battery for my daily use is overkill. I am imagining that should be possible as others have made batteries for their "Cheebs". For sure I would use 2700 cells as I have them in my other DIY bikes and like their performance. Not sure what LG cells are in the Luna bikes as they don't provide that info......I'll decide on what size after riding the stock battery for awhile to see what consumption I am using. In fact IIRC when the M600 was first introduced Bafang said they were going to make a few different size batteries like 350w/500w/750w for it but that never has transpired?

Sure, could probably save a few lbs there if it gets you the range. I thought I was going to wind up making a battery when looking at some DIY options. My head hurt reading the reviews of cell welders, as according to readings, well - they all suck??!! Any recommendations?

FWIW Bafang seems to have made them, maybe - check F03, F04 and BT23 or 25?

I helped out in an eBike shop for awhile and assembled quite a few BBSHD bikes and rode them enough to get that their cadence PAS wasn't going to work for me. If this is your first torque sensing PAS then I am sure you will like it right away.

My wife has a Bosch Gazelle and I’ve ridden another Bosch traveling, but will at least be able to do some back to back comparisons of behavior once it shows up. I’m not positive but sounded like bikes are on hand and may be a matter of weeks?

 

[greeno]

RTP a couple of things on your comments. All good not to worry. You brought up bash guards I made these from some 1/8" steel that I had laying around, took about an hour. Has zero effect on cooling of the motor and has saved scraping the motor on numerous occasions.

As far as making your own battery's are concerned there is a company out of the UK called "K-Weld" that makes spot-welders that is good quality and fairly reasonably priced. Been making mine and friends battery's for a couple of years now and no sad tales to tell. Using 18650 Sanyo cells and pretty happy with the results. 21700 cells are good also but $ to watt cost is still better with the smaller size unless your doing a bulk buy.

 

[Lsthrz]

OEs are 170mm. The shorter cranks are 150mm. One user review indicates the shorter cranks now come standard. Seems most don't mind the shorter cranks, so maybe it was just me. It felt like I was having to spin faster and my legs were begging for mercy on sustained climbs. Could have been I was just way out of shape. Was the last ride of the season. I'll keep using the 150mm because the 170mm are somewhat dangerous if you're not careful on the downhill.

LUNA X1 Enduro Short Crank Arms

Providers of quality ebikes, electric bike batteries, motors and components at affordable pricing.

lunacycle.com

150mm is just too short IMHO. 160mm seems to be the sweet spot. There was a pretty good review of crank length comparisons and ps vs cadence feel. They came to the 160mm being the right comparison.

 

[tomjasz]

Those huge packs of butted up cells scare me. I'd be certain to have temperature monitoring of the pack.

 

[rich c]

I'm curious what a bash guard does when it is mounted to the motor? You'll still transfer all the forces to the motor case and will likely crack the case as easily as not having a guard. Ideally the guard would mount to the frame and isolate all the force away from the motor housing. Those tiny bolts will shear off pretty quickly threaded into an alloy case.

 

[JRA]

All understandable. Had similar concerns and had asked Pushkar RE: an Archon option for M600 as a result. (said it’s been running in lab, hopefully see sometime next year second half or later, which is generally good news for all).

More waiting for something is not my best activity anymore.

The Ultra is certainly more overbuilt, but after digging in a bit on VESC, the guy who likely built the controller (marcos), and his prior projects, as well as his engagement in the community - I have some good level of confidence in the ‘new’ M600 controller. A few links:

VESC Project

vesc-project.com

| Details | Hackaday.io

<p>This project was released in endless-sphere forum, here's the thread where the discussion takes place: <a href="https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=89056&start=250#p1458465">https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=89056&start=250#p1458465</a></p>...

hackaday.io

Axiom: a 100kW+ motor controller

/***************************************************************************************/ Jump to page 11 for the latest hardware! https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=89056&start=250#p1458465...

endless-sphere.com

I am sure it will be fine, I've been on ES since 2008 and have nothing but respect for the contributors like Marcos there. However I can't say personally that I am all that knowledgable about what the heck they are doing!

Yep - if the X2 hadn’t have popped at the right time for me or sold out, I might well have done the same, although undoubtedly would prefer the WW controller..but at least you can adjust the settings on the UART Ultra in it…

Yeah if I can figure out what I need to change at least I can have a stab at it. Hopefully though it will just do what I want out of the box settings wise as fine tuning electronics is not my strong suit although I did figure out my CA3 eventually.....I have OSF on my TSDZ2 installed by Eco Cycles and never have messed with that. Works the same as my non OSF one that I had before and I didn't have any problems with it.

Yep. I’ve taken the line that 8-10 speeds are fine with assist, with some inherent added strengths (ok, short of SRAM $$$$$$ drivetrain. Will see how the NX 11s feels and go from there as to hat I replace it with as it wears out.

I know the 12spd stuff on the Zed1 as speced is overkill to me but I'll run it til it doesn't anymore then replace it with some Box stuff probably as I have found that to be fine for e work and cheap to replace.

LOL on ‘eSaw’ - I held out a looong time vs going cordless but nowadays have a ton of Makita - saw, impact wrench, line trimmer, etc. They’re great!

I am set up Mawaukee myself. Mostly Milwaukee at this point however but still a few Makita's about. My eSaw is Harbor freight though and my buddy with a Stihl likes it better than his..gets the job done and fits nicely into the back pack I already had. Gotta love having an eBike to get it to the trail for sure though.

I think the Ultra positioning inherently has more clearance - I’m surprised but seems to be the case. Might be worth considering an added bash guard or making one from Kydex and a heat gun. Haven’t hit the issue on ebike but plenty of times on dual-sport motorcycles…

Having ridden TSDZ2 bikes for the last 4 years I have become very sensitive to bashes....but if you have a BBSHD bike you know what I mean. I like the idea that greeno had but I mostly just have half rotted logs to deal with anymore here.

Sure, could probably save a few lbs there if it gets you the range. I thought I was going to wind up making a battery when looking at some DIY options. My head hurt reading the reviews of cell welders, as according to readings, well - they all suck??!! Any recommendations?

I will just have my buddy at the previously mentioned shop make me one. He gives me a deal and I don't have to deal with burning down my house. I can solder wires but stop there.

FWIW Bafang seems to have made them, maybe - check F03, F04 and BT23 or 25?

K, I'll look into that. Will wait to see how the one on the bike is configured first. If it is attached to the cover plate might have to get one of those from DengFu.

My wife has a Bosch Gazelle and I’ve ridden another Bosch traveling, but will at least be able to do some back to back comparisons of behavior once it shows up. I’m not positive but sounded like bikes are on hand and may be a matter of weeks?

In stock as far as I know from the above quote from someone who talked to Luna. However I am not sure how many of the X2's they had shipped in but based on the fact that they sold out so fast I am sure it is going to take a bit to work though the que! Would like to be a fly on the wall there at HQ on Monday! If I see it in a few weeks I'll be happy enough. Looking at fender options today....winter ride life in the OR requires them.

 

[TomD]

A little off topic but the ludicrous V2 option for the X2 looks pretty sweet. FOC and smartphone app programmable with street legal and trail options. Makes the M600 a lot more compelling. Not sure if proprietary to Luna or if HPC might also be using this for their M600 offering. At first blush it looks like HPC may just be shunting the stock controller (ala ludicrous V1).

Luna M600 Ludicrous V2

New Ludicrous tech is coming to our M600 drive units! Smooth, efficient and customizable, this new controller shares the same platform of our BBSHD ludicrous v2 controller in a tighter package, fully integrated with the Luna X2 bike.This is a 12 MOSFET controller, running at high frequency for...

lunacycle.com

 

[bexamous]

Yea vesc based controller sounds great. Maybe rev1 won't be perfect although lots of proven designs to copy. Worst case a v1.1 sorta thing and some further tuning this seems more like future. Eg if I had to choose between a refined vesc controller and innotrace I'd prefer vesc. I'm already annoyed with this registration process with innotrace, lol.

 

[JRA]

No doubt the v2 Ludicrous will be a popular option on the X2 but also gum up the works shipping wise as they will have to install them in all those that went for that option. But maybe because they won't have to mess with mine it will get to the loading dock sooner.....that is why I never opted for any of the put down and wait options . At least they went ahead and just put the PEEK gear in on the deal to get that settled.

For the Zed1 I am looking in to the Eggrider V2 as a very handy German dude on EMTB has one installed on his Cube converted M620 bike. Once again in my case I'll wait to see if the stock settings work for me but I do like a more minimal display size.

 

[rtp]

I'm curious what a bash guard does when it is mounted to the motor? You'll still transfer all the forces to the motor case and will likely crack the case as easily as not having a guard. Ideally the guard would mount to the frame and isolate all the force away from the motor housing. Those tiny bolts will shear off pretty quickly threaded into an alloy case.

Was kind of thinking the same, but worst case - re-read your last sentence. If it takes a strong hit and shears, well - sacrificial bolts > cracking motor casing, no?

 

[rtp]

More waiting for something is not my best activity anymore.

Is it anyones?

I am sure it will be fine, I've been on ES since 2008 and have nothing but respect for the contributors like Marcos there. However I can't say personally that I am all that knowledgable about what the heck they are doing!

In a recent job I was leading several teams involving hardware, firmware, software/apps in a somewhat-related domain including some very bright EE types among others. I probably can't follow half of what he may be talking about, but can follow enough to know he's damned smart as well as building on the established framework etc of VESC. Nothing's perfect, but until we can order up an Archon in <choose your flavor> - it's a whole lot better than nothing and has the potential to be impressive. Fingers crossed.

Yeah if I can figure out what I need to change at least I can have a stab at it. Hopefully though it will just do what I want out of the box settings wise as fine tuning electronics is not my strong suit although I did figure out my CA3 eventually.....I have OSF on my TSDZ2 installed by Eco Cycles and never have messed with that. Works the same as my non OSF one that I had before and I didn't have any problems with it.

I've tried more than once to make it through CA/Phaserunner docs. I suppose I could if I had one in hand, but that is the complete opposing of 'easy programming' from what I've seen.
I did a fair amount of custom ECU auto tuning for fun track toys for a bit - knew a good amount, but shouldn't need to understand the theory of <everything> to be able to install and tune something, at least for most people, IMO. Kudos to you for getting it running - I thought a used one might be a backup plan for M600, but didn't have one in hand, grintech seems ambivalent-ish to customers from what I read, and I just couldn't motivate myself to get through their docs.

I know the 12spd stuff on the Zed1 as speced is overkill to me but I'll run it til it doesn't anymore then replace it with some Box stuff probably as I have found that to be fine for e work and cheap to replace.

Same plan. Box cassette is supposedly Sunrace, and see reviews all over the place on Box. Any experience with them?

I am set up Mawaukee myself. Mostly Milwaukee at this point however but still a few Makita's about. My eSaw is Harbor freight though and my buddy with a Stihl likes it better than his..gets the job done and fits nicely into the back pack I already had. Gotta love having an eBike to get it to the trail for sure though.

Similar quality, different flavor - nice to see at least a few real tool companies exist out there. I have a wired HF chop box I built most of a house with - still works.

Having ridden TSDZ2 bikes for the last 4 years I have become very sensitive to bashes....but if you have a BBSHD bike you know what I mean. I like the idea that greeno had but I mostly just have half rotted logs to deal with anymore here.

There are literally wires stuck out the front of the BBSHD, so all kinds of 'fun' can happen there, although it at least does have a frame with some protection. Some.. It's been on my list since seeing it, but TBD on if I get to it or sell it first.

In stock as far as I know from the above quote from someone who talked to Luna. However I am not sure how many of the X2's they had shipped in but based on the fact that they sold out so fast I am sure it is going to take a bit to work though the que! Would like to be a fly on the wall there at HQ on Monday! If I see it in a few weeks I'll be happy enough. Looking at fender options today....winter ride life in the OR requires them.

No doubt RE: fly on wall although I'm sure it was expected, and same expectation on timing. Haven't gone looking for fenders yet, but will need to. I ziptied a front Mudhugger on the current bike and it's functionally fine, probably better than any of the 'look, I can make a super-thin sheet of index with a logo on it' types.

 

[rtp]

A little off topic but the ludicrous V2 option for the X2 looks pretty sweet. FOC and smartphone app programmable with street legal and trail options. Makes the M600 a lot more compelling. Not sure if proprietary to Luna or if HPC might also be using this for their M600 offering. At first blush it looks like HPC may just be shunting the stock controller (ala ludicrous V1).

Luna M600 Ludicrous V2

New Ludicrous tech is coming to our M600 drive units! Smooth, efficient and customizable, this new controller shares the same platform of our BBSHD ludicrous v2 controller in a tighter package, fully integrated with the Luna X2 bike.This is a 12 MOSFET controller, running at high frequency for...

lunacycle.com

It's apparently a variant of the controller Marcos released in 2017-ish, and is also nearly identical to the Luda v2 for BBHSD, so undoubtedly there will be some growing pains (software always does) but the hardware should be pretty mature at this point. Looks like they called the BBHSD V2 as beta when it was originally released:

Ludicrous V2 Controller

Distributors and builders of life changing electric bikes.

lunacycle.com

Guess it's possible RE: HPC but don't think all of the changes are merged in to mainline VESC at this point. Seems likelier it's a shunt but - who knows?