Luna rips off Watt Wagons Hydra?

[Cuz Vinny]

The Luna bike is only 48v, the WW Hydra is 52V. At least that’s what I thought I read.

 

[scrambler]

That is indeed what the website lists.
And of course, no Archon X1, no IGH... And Luna

 

[tomjasz]

The Luna bike is only 48v, the WW Hydra is 52V. At least that’s what I thought I read.

Sorry but that's an inconsequential detail. Both can run 52V batteries. But there are those of us out here that are and always have been happy with 48V. Good news for us all, Reention Poly cases are big enough for battery separators rather than glued 52V Hailong packs. If you must have 52V.

 

[rtp]

The same carbon frames have been around for awhile. As far as Innotrace is concerned Pushkar uses their product that they manufacturer I think they had something to do with Exess bikes over in Germany originally.
Innotrace offer up the same bike ( Hydra ) overseas under a different name ( Black Forrest X3 ).
The Z1 bike from Eric is going to be competition for WW if they can supply what they advertise. Looks like they are supplying motors with the UART programming plugs so program mods are possible as opposed to the CANBUS style, which I'm sure will be hacked in the future but that's then and this is now.
Free market at work.
This is the perfect time when reliable, honest, prompt customer service helps you keep your customers from going elsewhere. $ is not the driving issue here as we all know.

Yep. Look up ‘cheeb build’ on youtube or endless sphere. Outside of the US and Canada there are tons of E10 builds, most with better specs vs the Luna variant(s). I think that one video and thread likely sold 1K frames for Dengfu… I have no clue on the volume WW, Luna or any others are doing, but then there’s Tosa Bikes, Black Forest etc.

Note the new Biktrix Monte frame is also a generic China-made frame - found it on Ali and looked into it for a build, and found out Biktrix has the exclusive on it for US/Canada, but it’s not ‘their’ frame as in they don’t manufacture it, didn’t design it, etc.

Pushkar may have had anywhere from zero to significant input on the Hydra/E10 frame - I personallydon’t know, but he’s also brought the Archon/X1 controller to the US, and I’m assuming that’s also included feedback to improve that product as well as is looking to move things forward for the better. I’m guessing Luna saw their income drying up so reached out to hardware and firmware teams that could modify a system for them, and wound up at VESC. I hope it works well (I do have one on order), and it’s sorely needed (programmability).

Meanwhile, I now see even less reason for Biktrix pricing on their Monte… just too much IMO. Hydra Black and Luna Z1 are roughly on par (components-wise), while the Monte starts at $5200 or more with unbranded suspension last I looked.

 

[TomD]

The story was told different to me. The Helios was Pushkar baby and dengfu was not willing to recognize that and was willing to sell it to others. I was told that the hydra was always open source and could be sold to anyone.

My recollection talking to pushkar was as mentioned in the OP. Yes, the frame was open source, but they made changes to it and pushkar believed the revisions would be exclusive and IP of Watt Wagons. There was email correspondence from the development in this regard, but he was pretty much screwed as nothing had been copyrighted.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

The HPC looks to be using the Dengfu E05 frame which is for the M600 motor. Not really comparable to the Hydra which uses the Ultra motor.

The HPC is 52 volt up to 1600 Watt and 140 Nm torque. Doesn't seem like M600 Motor to me. Its not quite the Hydra, but not that far off.

 

[Acme]

The only thing custom from Luna is the controller on the M 600. I don’t know how good it is but it is open source so you can play with it. For the Z1, similar to the Watt Wagons Hydra black there is zero customization other than some programming of the standard Bafang controller. I have heard people complain about their “special sauce“ in previous tunes so hopefully it has improved. In my personal opinion the Stock Bafang controller is a dog and no matter how much you program it it will never compare to the Innotrace. This is why I like so many others only had interest in the M600 X2 but I can’t see why anyone would want to own an G510 ultra in a high spec bike with a standard Bafang controller. You’re gonna have to buy another aftermarket controller or pay which cost $700 to put Innotrace in it
just My opinion
Gary

 

[rtp]

The Luna bike is only 48v, the WW Hydra is 52V. At least that’s what I thought I read.

True, although I think Hydra Black is 48v, no?
Meanwhile they claim th M600 controller can go to 72v but site states 48v battery there as well. Sent Qs, will see how that goes.

 

[rtp]

The HPC is 52 volt up to 1600 Watt and 140 Nm torque. Doesn't seem like M600 Motor to me. Its not quite the Hydra, but not that far off.

I know it’s OT but anyone know what they’re doing controller-wise? Or is that just an optimistic bump from going to 52v?

 

[rtp]

The only thing custom from Luna is the controller on the M 600. I don’t know how good it is but it is open source so you can play with it. For the Z1, similar to the Watt Wagons Hydra black there is zero customization other than some programming of the standard Bafang controller. I have heard people complain about their “special sauce“ in previous tunes so hopefully it has improved. In my personal opinion the Stock Bafang controller is a dog and no matter how much you program it it will never compare to the Innotrace. This is why I like so many others only had interest in the M600 X2 but I can’t see why anyone would want to own an G510 ultra in a high spec bike with a standard Bafang controller. You’re gonna have to buy another aftermarket controller or pay which cost $700 to put Innotrace in it
just My opinion
Gary

Yeah, it’s all relative. Certainly Innotrace > Bafang but UART > CANBUS Bafang… I know Rohan mentioned something RE: future CANBUS Ultra programmability options but there aren’t many games in town right now.

Meanwhile, I’ve asked where the repo is, as I suspect it’s forked off of vesc-tools. Mostly curiosity as a former developer…

 

[TomD]

The HPC is 52 volt up to 1600 Watt and 140 Nm torque. Doesn't seem like M600 Motor to me. Its not quite the Hydra, but not that far off.

No, that's a M600, no question about it.

Unless they developed their own controller (unlikely) guessing they did the same thing as luna with ludicurous 1.0 and shunted the controller to double the power to make it twice as powerful, and half as refined as the original M600 which shitty firmware. No thanks!

 

[TomD]

Dengfu manufacture carbon bike frames, nothing to do with helios. Dengfu manufacture some frames that the wider public can buy, some boutique brands purchased some of these frames and built branding around them pretending they designed them, some 'brands' purchased regional exclusivity on 1 frame type others on another frame type. These frames were available to the public waay before pushkar and eric luna started using them. X1 was before Hydra.

Pushkar is not innotrace. Like pushkar is not SRAM or Fox.

My understanding is there are a handful of CF manufacturers in Taiwan, of which Dengfu is one. While different companies, they "cooperate" in the sense they share open molds. I believe the frames on Dengfu's site are some of those molds (with Hydra curiously absent). Not sure if they each have their own manufacturing or if some of that is shared as well. Capacity is loosely shared in terms of the supply of raw materials to make the frames, especially in the COVID era. Apparently Pushkar was informed some buyer bought out most of the capacity to make frames, which essentially killed Helios. Around that time Pushkar also discovered someone was shipping Hydra frames to Germany. He was tipped off by Innotrace as the bike had been shipped directly to innotrace to upgrade the controller.

 

[rtp]

The only thing custom from Luna is the controller on the M 600. I don’t know how good it is but it is open source so you can play with it. For the Z1, similar to the Watt Wagons Hydra black there is zero customization other than some programming of the standard Bafang controller. I have heard people complain about their “special sauce“ in previous tunes so hopefully it has improved. In my personal opinion the Stock Bafang controller is a dog and no matter how much you program it it will never compare to the Innotrace. This is why I like so many others only had interest in the M600 X2 but I can’t see why anyone would want to own an G510 ultra in a high spec bike with a standard Bafang controller. You’re gonna have to buy another aftermarket controller or pay which cost $700 to put Innotrace in it
just My opinion
Gary

Yes, the ‘Luna v1 Ludicrous’ was a fiasco IMO, but they seem to have learned from it, or possibly were forced to (Pushkar/Archon/CANBUS .. ). There’s a long thread on Ludi v2 BBHSD, and their dev Marcos seems to know his stuff, and beyond the world of ebikes. It’s a smart move honestly, as everyone’s now realized - buy bikes from China and double the price is something one can do themselves (and some do, or build..) so differentiation somewhere is needed.

I also think Acme’s post a bit over the top as there are only so many carbon fiber (or even AL) frame manufacturers out there to select frames from. ?the E5 claims 120mm rear travel (another Dengfu frame), so which others are left? Not many.

Of course, if Pushkar designed the frame vs giving normal product feedback, and Dengfu reneged on exclusivity, well yeah, I’d be pissed but the beef is with Dengfu, not anyone else trying to find frames to build bikes from, IMO - that’s just business…

 

[JRA]

"the E5 claims 120mm rear travel (another Dengfu frame), so which others are left? Not many."

FLX Weapon comes to mind with what looks to me like the E5 frame w/M600 but I am not a fan of their whole advance marketing dangle a pic and leave out the details, like geo and $$ and a big difference between a 120mm and 160mm bike for sure .

Having gone through most of the other available options to the Zed1 here today outside of Alibaba bs though it seems like Luna's price is hard to beat. All the others are $6k usd/eu or more it seems. The whole 2500w thing isn't my bag and in fact I would probably run an Ultra @ 20A so the other controller options wouldn't do me any good. Component wise it is certainly name brand enough to get by for at least until something breaks for 99% of the riding public. Sometimes I shake my head in wonder at those that buy even expensive bikes and then go to town with even more expensive replacements. But to each his own.

Seriously about the only thing I would change on either the X2 or Z1 would be a set of 29" wheels just because I haven't had a bike without at least one 700c wheel on it since 1999. For sure the front wheel mullet setup to start out as that is what I have been using for the last 3 years but as I ride mostly dirt roads and not too tech single track these days I might go full 29"er and gain a little extra pedal clearance.

 

[rtp]

No, that's a M600, no question about it.


Unless they developed their own controller (unlikely) guessing they did the same thing as luna with ludicurous 1.0 and shunted the controller to double the power to make it twice as powerful, and half as refined as the original M600 which shitty firmware. No thanks!

Thanks - that’s some expensive Kool-Aid they’re selling if so…

 

[TomD]

HPC has always sold expensive Kook Aid. Check out this user experience. Sounded like a nightmare. Say what you will about Luna's business practices, at least they offer good value and support is acceptable (IME).

Please help me make final decision between Biktrix Ultra Eagle and HPC Scout

I've narrowed by decision down to these two bikes. Would be grateful if anyone would tell me what you'd choose if you were in my shoes and why. Here's my scenario: I didn't list cost (please assume total cost is not a factor in your analysis. However my budget is 6k and both of these bikes are...

electricbikereview.com

 

[tomjasz]

I'm sorry but I'm done with Bafang mid drives and Bafang's horseshit parts stream. And soon it seems the BBSxx series will die off and we'll be left holding that bag with out parts support. And forced like Bosch and others to have no DIY repair support. I have 3 2014 and 2015 motors with no replacement gears or controllers. 6 years of customer support of BBSxx series motors, only to be leftist in the cold.

 

[TomD]

only to be leftist in the cold.

Oh to be Russian!

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

No, that's a M600, no question about it.

View attachment 108138

Unless they developed their own controller (unlikely) guessing they did the same thing as luna with ludicurous 1.0 and shunted the controller to double the power to make it twice as powerful, and half as refined as the original M600 which shitty firmware. No thanks!

Thanks very much for being able to decipher that; I wouldn't know how. Good information to have. I will definitely not order.

 

[rtp]

HPC has always sold expensive Kook Aid. Check out this user experience. Sounded like a nightmare. Say what you will about Luna's business practices, at least they offer good value and support is acceptable (IME).

Please help me make final decision between Biktrix Ultra Eagle and HPC Scout

I've narrowed by decision down to these two bikes. Would be grateful if anyone would tell me what you'd choose if you were in my shoes and why. Here's my scenario: I didn't list cost (please assume total cost is not a factor in your analysis. However my budget is 6k and both of these bikes are...

electricbikereview.com

Thanks - an abysmal read and glad it’s searchable for others. I came across their site only recently, noted the massively high prices for what looked to be what others were also selling. From reading that and another story, seems they give American businesses a bad name (I think they also claim ‘made in the USA’ which has some sadly lacking guidelines today, I believe,) but just…meh..