2022 - Top 12 Bafang Ultra M620 Ebikes

[Ebiker33]

Another new add for this list....also note the use of the Luna Ultra.

CHRISTINI AWD FAT-E 5 Ultra Mid Drive – $6295​

I want to add this model because I just learned about it, what makes it so unique is that it is an ULTRA powered ebike that is AWD.
I wondered how they are doing that without a hub motor on the front.
Here is their patented system-link
AWD-How It Works
And excerpt from that link
"The front gear set powers the custom front hub which has a One-Way roller clutching system. This is one of the important parts of the AWD system… The ratio is .92:1 with the freewheel clutch normally spinning allowing the AWD system to ONLY engage when the rear wheel slips. Thus the term AWD instead of 2WD."

I really think this type of innovation is going to be what drives ebike tech in the next 10 years. I applaud this company for doing something different to set themselves apart.

 

[JRA]

I guess that explains why Christini make those 104bcd adapters. I put one on my Z1 in order to use a smaller than 42t chainring and it works as advertised. They make two versions, one for fat tires with more offset and the one I got is the lesser and works fine with tires up to 3" clearance wise.

Btw, the Christini two wheel drive system has been around for along time. Originally showed up on bicycles and then motorcycles and now an eBike version. The concept of AWD vs. 2wd as described is valid though and certainly unique in the two wheeled world.

 

[ProphetZarquon]

Another new add for this list....also note the use of the Luna Ultra.

CHRISTINI AWD FAT-E 5 Ultra Mid Drive – $6295​

The top-tube looks like it rolled out of bed wrong one morning, but I like the AWD concept, & wonder about electronic traction control?

 

[ElevenAD]

Another new add for this list....also note the use of the Luna Ultra.

CHRISTINI AWD FAT-E 5 Ultra Mid Drive – $6295​

I want to add this model because I just learned about it, what makes it so unique is that it is an ULTRA powered ebike that is AWD.
I wondered how they are doing that without a hub motor on the front.
Here is their patented system-link
AWD-How It Works
And excerpt from that link
"The front gear set powers the custom front hub which has a One-Way roller clutching system. This is one of the important parts of the AWD system… The ratio is .92:1 with the freewheel clutch normally spinning allowing the AWD system to ONLY engage when the rear wheel slips. Thus the term AWD instead of 2WD."

I really think this type of innovation is going to be what drives ebike tech in the next 10 years. I applaud this company for doing something different to set themselves apart.

I want to ride this thing so bad! It looks like an absolute blast!

 

[ElevenAD]

Another new add for this list....also note the use of the Luna Ultra.

CHRISTINI AWD FAT-E 5 Ultra Mid Drive – $6295​

I want to add this model because I just learned about it, what makes it so unique is that it is an ULTRA powered ebike that is AWD.
I wondered how they are doing that without a hub motor on the front.
Here is their patented system-link
AWD-How It Works
And excerpt from that link
"The front gear set powers the custom front hub which has a One-Way roller clutching system. This is one of the important parts of the AWD system… The ratio is .92:1 with the freewheel clutch normally spinning allowing the AWD system to ONLY engage when the rear wheel slips. Thus the term AWD instead of 2WD."

I really think this type of innovation is going to be what drives ebike tech in the next 10 years. I applaud this company for doing something different to set themselves apart.

The Luna is a good choice if they are still using Magnesium Ultra's! They are supposed to be much lighter.

 

[Ken M]

Well, that's very different from just a direct throttle, but I think you describe exactly what I'd like to see, too!?

Regular current-based throttle? Yes please, always!

But more similar to what you described, a slider (which stays put) to adjust the level of assistance supplied in response to pedal force, would be wonderful!

Further, a slider to adjust how acutely that assistance ramps? Oy vey, getting complicated again: How about an app that dynamically adjusts assistance based on how often you hit the More & Less buttons? I'm kidding.

The first part though, about a slider for assist level, sounds great.


True, but their biggest motor getting a bad reputation, for being jerky with poor torque sensing, & the impact that will have on future sales, might change their tune a bit on locking out the finer config features?

And failing that, some tool wrenching & parts swapping can change it, for those who find themselves otherwise unsatisfied.


Quite right! Back to topic:

https://shop.sondors.com/pages/lx
I liked the Sondors LX I rode, but there's already a Sondors in the list? The LX was actually one of the best handling fat-tire ebikes I've been on...

The "assist slide" sounds like a good idea but I would still just prefer a throttle as I have found that my brain is fully capable of adjusting the assist on the fly to what level I want pretty much immediately. Oh but the industry wants to keep programmers employed so they'll add heart rate monitors, gear sensors, grade sensors, etc. so the marketing people can claim to have the most advance assist system in the world. Just give me a throttle and I'll pedal at the excretion level I like - I just don't need programmers thinking for me (they can go create a more complicated bitcoin algorithm).

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Why buy,

when you can build

 

[tomjasz]

Why buy,

when you can build

Exactly! Those resellers depend on you becoming your own support. The lessons learned in the building make the ride much more sustainable. I just don't see Bafang's newest business model as builder friendly. Small Block LighteningRods belt drive.Simple and elegant IMO.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Wow that is a fantastic bike. Looks like a Hydra with better fork and shocks. Well done Neeko
Did it take long to gather all the parts needed to complete the bike?

Many thanks for your kind words @Rome.

The bike didn't take long to build but I explain everything in the thread on EMTB Forums.

Dengfu E22 Frame Thread

Decided to pick up one of these frames sets after receiving many enquiries through Instagram, EMTB Forums, EBR, etc. Hopefully, this thread will be of use to anyone who is considering buying/building up one. FULL DISCLAIMER It was through Carbon Cycles on Ebay which I picked one up for the...

www.emtbforums.com

The Watt Wagon Hydra is essentially a Dengfu E22 frame. I can't comment on the motor tune they've implemented on the M620 motor. But I'm sure that information exists somewhere on the EBR Forum

 

[ElevenAD]

Why buy,

when you can build

sweet! would love to see a complete review and breakdown!

 

[AtlasRearden]

I've been interested in a Frey bike for a few years now. I'm curious with the recent update to the AM1000, how would people compare the AM1000-V6 to the EX Pro? The EX Pro is only $400 more, so they are fairly comparable in price. Why would someone consider one versus the other?

I'm interested in a "do everything" sort of bike, or at least as much as possible. Something that would work well on the road when riding with my wife and carrying some gear, grabbing groceries, but then also be able to hit the trails on the weekend. I like the added range of the second battery on the EX Pro, and was thinking of optioning it out with the lights, racks, fenders, etc. to make it more versatile. It's also very hilly in my area, so the high power and hill climb capabilities of the mid-drive Bafang Ultra is attractive.

I was also looking at the Biktrix Juggernaut Ultra FS Pro 2

The Juggernaut ends up being pretty similar in price to the Freys, but the componentry does not seem as high-end.

I also looked at the CSC FT1000MD, as more of a budget option.

Even though the lower price is attractive, it still seems close enough in price, that I tend to justify spending a little bit more for the higher end parts.

Curious what feedback the Bafang Ultra Pros would have. I'm tempted by the talk of building, but don't really know where to begin, and the whole CAN vs. UART discussion makes me think that would be more than I want to wrap my head around.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Its funny you should bring this up @AtlasRearden. I've been asked this question about the differences between the UART protocol vs CANBus. Here's my take on it after tinkering with both,
1. It is 'speculated', that CANBus improves communication. Thereby eliminating (my like reducing), the communication errors associated with the UART protocol. This is (to a certain extent) true. However, it must be recognised that Bafang 'did not' create the UART protocol standard. Moreso, they implemented this 'already invented and established' communication protocol into their systems. As such, this left Bafang in a position whereby their system could be interacted with by those who could interfere with their system.
2. Moving forward, Bafang will only be making subsequent motors (2022 motors), in CANBus. This should not be disheartening to those who have (or opt) for the UART protocol motors like the M620, M400, BBS01, BBS02, BBSHD etc. Internal components such as clutches, planetary gears etc can be obtained either aftermarket or from the place of origin you brought the motor from. Hence what I explained on EMTB Forums, Bafang remains the only motor manufacturer to continue to produce motors which are considered old and have not discontinued motors.
3. Yes, as many will explain. CANBus cannot be programmed as freely or easily compared to UART. But this coincides with point 1. Bafang didn't create the UART protocol (hell, they didn't create CANBus). Moreso, they have implemented a communication protocol whilst ensuring that only their proprietary kit is compatible.

Anywho, in answer to your question concerning which bike to buy. My only peice of advice is as follows:-

1. Make sure that whichever ebike you buy, find out where else you can buy components from. For fear that the place of origin goes bust or, it proves more difficult to buy.
2. Buy tools. 9/10, you'll be put in a position whereby something will need to be removed
3. Ask yourself whether or not you care to program the M620. I only say this because some just want the power and don't care about the range or subsequent issues as they will buy additional batteries if required.
4. Make sure the battery is atleast a 48v 17.5amp. Anything less, your range will be low.
And most important,
5. Whilst I do recognise that at the time I'm writing this, the choices of CANBus bafang displays are somewhat limited. Therefore, research which display you would envision using or buying. This usually determines whether you'll go with CANBus or UART (moreso than programming in my opinion).

Hope this helps and apologies for the lengthy post

 

[Csubi]

I am waiting for my Watt Wagons Hydra. They have a few Ready-Ship bikes available now too!
Link to their site

 

[AtlasRearden]

@Neeko DeVinchi Ha.. Hmm.. Perhaps you are pulling my leg, but to be clear, I did not intend to ask any questions about CANBus or UART, and only mentioned the terms in passing to highlight how little interest I have in getting into that level of tinkering (at least at this stage).

Rather, I'm interested in a Bafang Ultra powered eMTB or Fat bike in the $3k - $6k range, and trying zero in on the best value and fit for my interests. I posted a couple other models I looked at thinking they would be relevant to this thread, but have sort of zeroed in on the AM1000-V6 and EX Pro, and am kind of curious about how these would compare. I'm not so sensitive to the long wait times.

Regarding your advice:
1. All things being equal, I'd prefer a local company, but Frey has a good value proposition, and unless I'm mistaken, the frame is the only proprietary component that could not be purchased/replaced in my home market.
2. Check--no issues there.
3. NO, I'd rather not if I can get away with it.
4. Ok.. Of the 4 bikes I mentioned, it appears only the AM1000-V6 and Biktrix meets this recommendation.
5. I wish I could just forget I ever heard the terms "CANBus or UART" if possible...

I am waiting for my Watt Wagons Hydra. They have a few Ready-Ship bikes available now too!
Link to their site

Good thought--I have read about a lot of people that seem to be fans of the Watt Wagons. Perhaps the Hydra Black should be considered alongside the Frey models I was looking at.

 

[Csubi]

@Neeko DeVinchi Ha.. Hmm.. Perhaps you are pulling my leg, but to be clear, I did not intend to ask any questions about CANBus or UART, and only mentioned the terms in passing to highlight how little interest I have in getting into that level of tinkering (at least at this stage).

Rather, I'm interested in a Bafang Ultra powered eMTB or Fat bike in the $3k - $6k range, and trying zero in on the best value and fit for my interests. I posted a couple other models I looked at thinking they would be relevant to this thread, but have sort of zeroed in on the AM1000-V6 and EX Pro, and am kind of curious about how these would compare. I'm not so sensitive to the long wait times.

Regarding your advice:
1. All things being equal, I'd prefer a local company, but Frey has a good value proposition, and unless I'm mistaken, the frame is the only proprietary component that could not be purchased/replaced in my home market.
2. Check--no issues there.
3. NO, I'd rather not if I can get away with it.
4. Ok.. Of the 4 bikes I mentioned, it appears only the AM1000-V6 and Biktrix meets this recommendation.
5. I wish I could just forget I ever heard the terms "CANBus or UART" if possible...



Good thought--I have read about a lot of people that seem to be fans of the Watt Wagons. Perhaps the Hydra Black should be considered alongside the Frey models I was looking at.

The Hyrda Black are less customizable than the Hyrda. Having said that, both are great choices especially with the X1 controller and the company resides in Boston.
As I mentioned earlier, they currently have a few Ready-Ship builds available as well.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

My apologies @AtlasRearden. From the looks of things, you seem to have already narrowed down your decision.

Nevertheless, their will be more M620 emtb's and fatbikes released this year so keep a watchful eye. You'll find something.

Alternatively, you could build your own like what I have (I've built 6 ultra emtb's so far and have saved alot compared to buying complete builds).

Anywho, take it easy

 

[AHicks]

Re: CANbus/UART M620's, there's a TON of available info here, but just briefly, the OEM Bafang programming for either leaves a lot of performance on the table, in every single category, but generates the most complaints regarding LOW SPEED performance and control, not high speed.

Interested UART based M620 owners can do something about the terrible OEM programming very easily.
Those with CANbus M620's CANNOT, despite what you read about the potential. My understanding is those with programming knowledge have been able to make some changes, but nothing noteworthy. The dealers and the bike manf's are NOT able to make changes either.

Those shopping for M620 equipped bikes SHOULD be very aware of the CANbus vs. UART differences PRIOR to purchase.

 

[AtlasRearden]

Those shopping for M620 equipped bikes SHOULD be very aware of the CANbus vs. UART differences PRIOR to purchase.

Fair enough--and I was partly joking. It was just starting to feel like I have to take a computer programming class as a prerequisite to ride a bike! But I understand and appreciate the points made.

@Neeko DeVinchi No apologies needed--appreciate the insights.

Alternatively, you could build your own like what I have

What would you estimate the savings at--building vs buying? 20% Less for the same components? 30%? More?

In some hobbies, you don't build versus buy to save money--it's more about being able to precisely customize what you want. And that's completely fine, but I have lots of irons in the fire, so I'm a little gun shy about taking on a big project where I don't know what I'm doing.

 

[AHicks]

In some hobbies, you don't build versus buy to save money--it's more about being able to precisely customize what you want. And that's completely fine, but I have lots of irons in the fire, so I'm a little gun shy about taking on a big project where I don't know what I'm doing.

If you're considering building, realize the M620/Ultra needs a special bracket to hold the motor. It would need to be aligned, then welded into place. For that reason, you don't see many Ultra home builds. The much more common option would be the Bafang BBSHD. The BBSHD is still able to be found (I understand) with a UART based controller, giving you the option to go as crazy as you'd like making it "your way". Pretty bullet proof reputation too. Power comparable to the Ultra, just missing the torques sensing. TSDZ is a popular option as well.

I like the clean lines of the later model production bikes with the built in batteries. Buying into something like that, then customizing to your needs/hearts content is the way I've been doing it.

 

[JRA]

Got a bulk email from LUNA today that they are taking orders on Z1's that are due to ship in mid April. Still advertising UART motors. $4499 pre-order before shipping with the same parts spec.