2021–2022 Riese & Müller Homage

[webcurl]

So the motor does not actually run the two batteries in parallel but instead alternate.... Strange, but thank you for the Info.

There's also no power whatsoever to any wiring harness(s) when the bike is off.
So after a ride with the bike in your shed/garage if any moisture does creep into an area it shouldn't it never get's a chance to rapidly dry out (or start a fire :- )

 

[webcurl]

There's also no power whatsoever to any wiring harness(s) when the bike is off.
So after a ride with the bike in your shed/garage if any moisture does creep into an area it shouldn't it never get's a chance to rapidly dry out (or start a fire :- )

I wonder if the new Smart System batteries are like this (need 5V or whatever on the CAN line to enable the BMS to open up the main power conductors).

Also who thinks that the concept of isolating the batteries when the ebike is off was a designed feature right from the start by Bosch or an accidental benefit from them wanting to restrict users to only use Bosch chargers?

 

[webcurl]

I wonder if the new Smart System batteries are like this (need 5V or whatever on the CAN line to enable the BMS to open up the main power conductors).

Also who thinks that the concept of isolating the batteries when the ebike is off was a designed feature right from the start by Bosch or an accidental benefit from them wanting to restrict users to only use Bosch chargers?

Anyone wanna guess?

 

[Deleted member 18083]

There's also no power whatsoever to any wiring harness when the bike is off.

To switch the Homage on, I must press a button on the Nyon (or Kiox on my 2019 Homage Rohloff).

Does the electricity used to send that 'switch on' command come from the Nyon's battery rather than the PowerTubes? This is my interpretation based on what WC stated above. Did I get it right?

 

[webcurl]

>>> Also who thinks that the concept of isolating the batteries when the ebike is off was a designed feature right from the start by Bosch or an accidental benefit from them wanting to restrict users to only use Bosch chargers? <<<

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Does the electricity used to send that 'switch on' command come from the Nyon's battery rather than the PowerTubes? This is my interpretation based on what WC stated above. Did I get it right?

Logical.

 

[JVBulman]

Does the electricity used to send that 'switch on' command come from the Nyon's battery rather than the PowerTubes? This is my interpretation based on what WC stated above. Did I get it right?

The bike can be turned on from either the display or the battery.

 

[webcurl]

The bike can be turned on from either the display or the battery.

What is the state of the main + & - wires connected to the battery when the bike is off?

 

[Nycturne]

Anyone wanna guess?

Honestly, if I was I designing for an exposed environment like this, I would probably do something similar. Using a low voltage, low current signal to enable the higher current lines by itself isn’t much of a vendor lock-in. It’s not much better than locking a shed with a Master padlock with the key taped to the door. However, the power requirements for the motor are high enough it represents a hazard for people if live wiring gets exposed. I wouldn’t want to have greasy hands trying to work on this with the battery attached, or in any sort of wet conditions that lower my electrical resistance. Also seems like a decent safety measure to prevent the lines from going live the moment the battery is plugged in, but before the device is turned on.

 

[webcurl]

Honestly, if I was I designing for an exposed environment like this, I would probably do something similar. Using a low voltage, low current signal to enable the higher current lines by itself isn’t much of a vendor lock-in. It’s not much better than locking a shed with a Master padlock with the key taped to the door. However, the power requirements for the motor are high enough it represents a hazard for people if live wiring gets exposed. I wouldn’t want to have greasy hands trying to work on this with the battery attached, or in any sort of wet conditions that lower my electrical resistance. Also seems like a decent safety measure to prevent the lines from going live the moment the battery is plugged in, but before the device is turned on.

Not sure if the 2011 Bosch BMS had a 3rd wire or how many DIY'ers back then had multimeters or now. The newer batteries have a 4th line (to some how allow a 6A charger, but not sure on that).
Also not sure how many DIY'ers back then or now (if they never heard of this) would think to supply a small voltage/current that saturate's some MOSFET's to open up the main power line(s).
True it's not a super effective lock-in, that could have been done via the CAN bus itself (new Bosch smart system?).
But it would confuse the average Joe Blow DIY'er enough to allow for a semi-lock-in.
Question is, did Bosch coming from a profit point of view (just prior to helping?? VW with their Emissions scandal) design it this way as a semi-lock-in, or as a safety feature or both?

 

[Nycturne]

Not sure if the 2011 Bosch BMS had a 3rd wire or how many DIY'ers back then had multimeters or now. The newer batteries have a 4th line (to some how allow a 6A charger, but not sure on that).
Also not sure how many DIY'ers back then or now (if they never heard of this) would think to supply a small voltage/current that saturate's some MOSFET's to open up the main power line(s).
True it's not a super effective lock-in, that could have been done via the CAN bus itself (new Bosch smart system?).
But it would confuse the average Joe Blow DIY'er enough to allow for a semi-lock-in.
Question is, did Bosch coming from a profit point of view (just prior to helping?? VW with their Emissions scandal) design it this way as a semi-lock-in, or as a safety feature or both?

Here’s the thing, security through obscurity doesn’t work. It just takes one DIYer with enough EE to prod around to find out how it works, and then share the results of that discovery with everyone else. You can call it “semi-lock-in”, but the reality is that unless I’m being very uncharitable to the engineers, they had to have known it would fall to the first person to hook up any sort of equipment to this thing and analyze it. And while there are many DIYers not skilled with electronics, it’s not as if folks with EE experience aren’t part of these communities. I just focus my skillset to other hobbies with limited time in the day and all that.

While my EE is rusty, since I went the software route after college, there’s not really any reason in my mind to make a lock-in system this simple. Especially if you already have CAN running alongside the power wires. This is the sort of electronic lock someone would design in their first year.

I honestly think this is more a CYOA style safety feature where the cost of implementing this would be less than the eventual (if somewhat rare) issue of someone getting injured via a battery discharge, momentary shorts at time of battery connection, etc.

 

[webcurl]

Here’s the thing, security through obscurity doesn’t work. It just takes one DIYer with enough EE to prod around to find out how it works, and then share the results of that discovery with everyone else. You can call it “semi-lock-in”, but the reality is that unless I’m being very uncharitable to the engineers, they had to have known it would fall to the first person to hook up any sort of equipment to this thing and analyze it. And while there are many DIYers not skilled with electronics, it’s not as if folks with EE experience aren’t part of these communities. I just focus my skillset to other hobbies with limited time in the day and all that.

While my EE is rusty, since I went the software route after college, there’s not really any reason in my mind to make a lock-in system this simple. Especially if you already have CAN running alongside the power wires. This is the sort of electronic lock someone would design in their first year.

I honestly think this is more a CYOA style safety feature where the cost of implementing this would be less than the eventual (if somewhat rare) issue of someone getting injured via a battery discharge, momentary shorts at time of battery connection, etc.

OK, i almost give up, you're right!
I did forget to mention that their connectors are most likely either manufactured in-house or by a close-by German company that has signed a non-distribution agreement, can't buy them anywhere, i looked extensively:

https://www.fietsparts.nl/5599-thickbox/bosch-acculader-elektrische-fiets-4-amp-active-performance-line.jpg

 

[BMWzenRider]

Project Update:
R&M did approve the change to the belt drive gear ratio on my Class-1 (20mph) Homage GT Rohloff bike.
It took a few tries for my LBS to properly coordinate with the R&M tech team to get the bike hooked up to the R&M computers through the internet.
Once the remote connection was accomplished, the software that R&M downloaded into my bike now recognizes the new gearing ranges, and no more error codes or loss of assist.
The LBS ended up charging me $45.00 USD for the remote connection service, which I consider reasonable.

Have not had time to put any miles on the updated bike, but from riding around inside the LBS, I can tell that the new primary belt drive gear ratio makes a significant difference.
First gear is a TRUE granny gear now, and with the eMTB mode, should climb like a mountain goat now when off pavement.
And if my previous observations are correct, when on paved or well graded trails I should now spend almost all of my time in the upper range of the gearbox.
That is where the Rohloff is most efficient, and by avoiding regular shifting through the 7th/8th gear transition between the upper and lower gear range of the Rohloff, which takes longer to actuate, and has been where I have noticed false shifts if I don't back off the pedal pressure for long enough.

I will provide a more complete report about how the new belt drive ratio affects the bike as I am able to put more miles on it.
Hopefully that will be happening in the coming weeks, as I am planning to bring the bike along when I travel to the American Southwest to get out of the cold, snow, and gloom of Wisconsin.

Happy Trails!

 

[Tregurtha]

Crank length and seat height/drop is much more related to your inseam versus overall height.
I am just over 5'-10" (1.78m), but seem to have a shorter than normal inseam for my height of only 28" (711mm).

My preference is for either 160mm or even the set of 155mm cranks I have tried with my inseam.
Others are happy with the longer 165mm cranks, and some stick with the stock 170mm ones.

YMMV

After 2,000 miles in 6 mths I've hit the sweet spot having an inseam of 840mm and a 54cm frame. I have swapped the cranks for 160mm with Shimano T8000 XT SPD pedals and XM9 SPD Winter boots. Raising the saddle by 10mm for the cranks + a further 15mm has lifted the dropper post clear of the frame. Clip pedals need concentration on a 40Kg bike but my knee lift on each cadence is reduced and more comfortable at cadence of 75-80 with greater ground clearance.

Crank length and seat height/drop is much more related to your inseam versus overall height.
I am just over 5'-10" (1.78m), but seem to have a shorter than normal inseam for my height of only 28" (711mm).

My preference is for either 160mm or even the set of 155mm cranks I have tried with my inseam.
Others are happy with the longer 165mm cranks, and some stick with the stock 170mm ones.

YMMV

 

[Mraverage]

Homage + Thule Velospace Carrier…

View attachment 109398

View attachment 109399

Riese & Müller Homage
Thule Velospace 3-bike carrier​

The Homage is not the easiest ebike to carry on a car rack. Here's my solution using a foldable towball-mounted Thule Velospace 3-bike carrier. Despite being a long ebike, the Homage doesn't exceed the car's width as much as my iPhone might suggest!

• white rag : protection for down tube
• green strap : for my peace of mind (for example, over traffic-calming humps)
• 10mm x 1.2m plastic-coated cable with Abus lock (near rear shock valve)

Trivia:

• double-sided velcro next to orange strap on front carrier (holds brake on ; for example, on trains)
• Fidlock magnetic water bottle mount on down tube

Hi Dave, since the last comment I posted on using this rack for my Homage last year - I’ve found an even better rack than the Thule EasyFold XT you picture (it’s not marketed as Thule Velospace here in U.K.). The new rack I have is the Cykell, been around years, done in both 2 & 3 bike versions. Can also be found as the Whispbar Or more lately the Yakima Just Click 2/3. This rack is considerably lighter that the Thule, placing much less strain on the tow bar. I only ever carry two bikes, so I got shut of the Thule 3 bike carrier once I discovered the even better Cykell, the back rail is even higher than the Thule, meaning it can handle the Homage with ease. Another tip I picked up, buy some sheets of clear 3M sticky plastic film and cut to shape to stick to the seat stem, it saves all that wrapping with a rag business, great! The build quality is excellent, equal to Thule, the tilt and ball lock mechanism is superior to Thule I believe, what’s more in Europe they’ve been around years so are cheap used, got mine for £130 as new condition! Also has a ramp, which clicks in place on the rack for storage, built in wheels for moving around, was designed by cyclists for cyclists. The big problem with the Homage is the required height of the clamp arms on the carrier is nearly always much higher than most carrier designs, leaving you unable to get a good hold of the seat stem, the 3 bike Thule does the job, but the Cykell does it better.

 

[rudym]

Hi Dave, since the last comment I posted on using this rack for my Homage last year - I’ve found an even better rack than the Thule EasyFold XT you picture (it’s not marketed as Thule Velospace here in U.K.). The new rack I have is the Cykell, been around years, done in both 2 & 3 bike versions. Can also be found as the Whispbar Or more lately the Yakima Just Click 2/3. This rack is considerably lighter that the Thule, placing much less strain on the tow bar. I only ever carry two bikes, so I got shut of the Thule 3 bike carrier once I discovered the even better Cykell, the back rail is even higher than the Thule, meaning it can handle the Homage with ease. Another tip I picked up, buy some sheets of clear 3M sticky plastic film and cut to shape to stick to the seat stem, it saves all that wrapping with a rag business, great! The build quality is excellent, equal to Thule, the tilt and ball lock mechanism is superior to Thule I believe, what’s more in Europe they’ve been around years so are cheap used, got mine for £130 as new condition! Also has a ramp, which clicks in place on the rack for storage, built in wheels for moving around, was designed by cyclists for cyclists. The big problem with the Homage is the required height of the clamp arms on the carrier is nearly always much higher than most carrier designs, leaving you unable to get a good hold of the seat stem, the 3 bike Thule does the job, but the Cykell does it better.

Whenever I’m transporting Ebikes the very first thing I think about is weight? What’s the weight rating of the carriers? Kuatt is my go to rack with the 2.5 inch receiver. Added benefit of a maintenance stand feature makes it a winner!

 

[rudym]

Here is a kuatt using the optional ramp loaded in the walk mode.

 

[Mraverage]

Whenever I’m transporting Ebikes the very first thing I think about is weight? What’s the weight rating of the carriers? Kuatt is my go to rack with the 2.5 inch receiver. Added benefit of a maintenance stand feature makes it a winner!

Hi Rudym. The Cykel/Yakima rack weighs 17.3kg in 2-bike form and can legally carry 2x30kg bikes (60kg), this is very important here in Europe, where most cars have around a 80kg hitch weight limit. It costs about £450 brand new, but can be found used for as little as £125, which makes it very competitive. It has built-in stand feature and wheels and can be stored in most car boots (trunks) when the car is left unattended. Whilst perhaps not as substantial as the very solid looking Nuat, it can carry a similar capacity I believe, whilst at the same time not overloading the tow hitch of the average saloon car. Most manufacturers seem to provide 3 or 4 bike versions of their tow-hitch carriers, but from a point of view of carrying e-bikes I wouldn’t recommend them for the average European car, it places too much leverage on the hitch. The Nuat looks like a well-made piece of kit, but even on Amazon here in the U.K. it starts at £850 and goes up to £2500! The main problem with it for most apart from the price, will be the weight at 25kg, this eats heavily into my 80kg max limit for my hitch. I really like the maintenance stand feature.

 

[Spiffyflyer]

Other question for Homage users.
4. If you configure the Homage with the Higher torque Bosch CX, is the assist artificially limited to 20mph or also 28mph?

The CX is limited to 20mph only. Both the CX and the speed have the same torque. The Cx Has the torque curve lower in the range.

 

[RAB63]

New Homage owner - speed motor and Rohloff. Curious the most efficient gear for very steep hills. Assuming I will be in Turbo mode. Too low of a gear feels like I am not going anywhere. Too high a gear and I run out of “gas” part of the way up (at which point it is too late to downshift). What is the best gear to take advantage of the max power/torque of the motor on long steep hills. I do realize that everybody’s fitness level is different. Thank you in advance.