New Frey Owners

[TomD]

Innotrace is replacing controllers for European customers for ~$500 but won't do it for North America. Watt Wagons, exclusive retailer for North America, is only offering to replace controllers for their existing customers (for now). They will sell the motor + controller for $1400-1800:

Motors

Watt Wagons makes the Hydra, Helios, and the Ultimate Commuter Pro - the new generation of automotive grade, nearly maintenance free e-bikes right here in USA. Powered by Bafang motors, Kindernay Hub, and Belt drive.

wattwagons.com

Not sure why it's more expensive than just buying the motor for ~$600 from China and having Innotrace replace the controller. Would be less painful if Frey was able to sell bikes with the aftermarket controller, sounds like that may be in the works.

Benefits described here: https://wattwagons.com/blogs/news/archon-x1-controller

 

[brake034]

2) Frey M600 2.0 has an ingegrated battery but is overpriced. Why would anyone pay $3K + sipping for a bike with outdated Chinese FS frame with long chainstay?

The M600 2.0 has a 460mm chainstay, the X1 shows 458mm?? The AM1000 is 474mm.

 

[TomD]

I'm going from memory but I recall it had the same chainstay length as the AM1000, seems that was an error as the current specs are 460mm, my mistake. Still, I think the M600 2.0 is a hard sell for Frey in North America trying to compete with the Luna X1.

 

[brake034]

Innotrace is replacing controllers for European customers for ~$500 but won't do it for North America.

I believe Innotrace doesn't have UL registration, therefor they cannot safely offer their controller to end users?!

 

[byunbee]

I believe Innotrace doesn't have UL registration, therefor they cannot safely offer their controller to end users?!

Watt Wagons got the UL certification.

 

[brake034]

Watt Wagons got the UL certification.

For the complete motor?

 

[byunbee]

For the controller. Watt Wagons is the exclusive distributor for that controller in North America.

Just curious, do you work for Frey?

 

[brake034]

Just curious, do you work for Frey?

I am not an employee and Frey doesn't pay me, but I do have a Frey email address
I was at the 2019 Frey event, look for the tallest guy

And I help them a bit with international marketing.

 

[TomD]

Can you clarify what that means? Are you a consultant?

 

[brake034]

Can you clarify what that means? Are you a consultant?

Yes, I am but I don't get a financial reward from Frey, consider me a Brand Ambassador......
Edit, as a disclaimer, whatever I say and state is my personal opinion only, I do not communicate on behalf of Frey.

 

[byunbee]

Yes, I am but I don't get a financial reward from Frey, consider me a Brand Ambassador......

Ah...so YOU'RE Ivy's boyfriend!! It's all clear now.

 

[brake034]

Lol, Ivy's husband is Ambition, I live in Thailand remember?

 

[byunbee]

Lol, Ivy's husband is Ambition, I live in Thailand remember?

Ok...Grace then. Thailand is only a short flight away.

 

[brake034]

Nope, my wife is Pun and she is on the video too.......

 

[TomD]

brake034, if you are just helping them out of the goodness of your heart, good for you, but it seems there might be more than you are disclosing? I'm just reading between the lines here.

 

[brake034]

brake034, if you are just helping them out of the goodness of your heart, good for you, but it seems there might be more than you are disclosing? I'm just reading between the lines here.

No, there is nothing more, I actually do paid consultancy work for a company in Shanghai, so I was in China often till just before covid struck.
In my spare time I help Frey as I like the people and what they are doing, no hanky panky here

 

[byunbee]

Anyway kidding aside...Is Frey thinking about changing the default controller to Innotrace controller? I'm sure you already know, but it's pretty common for most people that have bought Frey bikes to complain about the lack of finesse and jerkiness with the power. It may be necessary move to the new controller if they want to differentiate themselves from the other 10k Chinese ebike manufacturers that use Bafang mid drives. Another problem they need to solve is the shipping costs. I don't believe they are competitive anymore in terms of total cost that includes shipping when compared to the big name brands like Trek, Giant, Haibike, Bulls. When given a choice most people will lean towards them vs Frey given that there is no local support where price is similar.

 

[TomD]

I don't think most people looking at Frey bikes are that discerning when it comes to the refinement of the Ultra motor - they tend to be power junkies wanting a quality build and are quite happy with their bikes in that regard. If they were looing for a refined euro-spec eMTB they wouldn't be looking at Frey. Apples vs. oranges. From a reputation standpoint Frey has a significant competitive advantage vs. other Chinese manufacturers.

 

[brake034]

Is Frey thinking about changing the default controller to Innotrace controller?

There is contact between Frey and Innotrace, Innotrace uses Frey platforms to test prototypes.
I think Frey wants to do more internal tests before they make a decision to offer the Innotrace controller as an option.

I could consider mounting Innotrace controllers here in Thailand but I would need a exempt from import duties and taxes, which is possible with an ATA Carnet.
Shipping both ways on the cheap would be about 150$ and the controller plus mounting work would be less than 500$, including cleaning and grease repacking.

 

[byunbee]

I don't think most people looking at Frey bikes are that discerning when it comes to the refinement of the Ultra motor - they tend to be power junkies wanting a quality build and are quite happy with their bikes in that regard. If they were looing for a refined euro-spec eMTB they wouldn't be looking at Frey. Apples vs. oranges. From a reputation standpoint Frey has a significant competitive advantage vs. other Chinese manufacturers.

I agree on the power junky factor, but if you look at other ebike manufacturers on Alibaba that use the Bafang mid drive many of them use same or similar frame and also offer the option to pick and choose upgrades just like Frey. In my eyes the primary advantage Frey has is their customer service and the fact that they monitor and participate on ebike forums in the U.S. in particular, the ES forum. That allowed Frey to build momentum via word of mouth giving them more presence in the U.S market. But that’s still minuscule when compared the more known brands. It just my opinion in that if they want to avoid losing what reputation they’ve already built, they need to do more. I also believe that vast majority of people that buy Frey ebike aren’t enthusiasts. Rather they are relatively new to ebikes, and buy Frey because they think it the best bang for the buck. But given that their total cost hovers around $3600-$4200 for their mid to higher end models, I don’t believe the average consumer will buy a Frey when they can buy a Trek, Giant, or Haibike for similar price locally.