My Thoughts on Mid Drive..Hub Drive and Throttle

[AHicks]

That reaction is 100% guaranteed to make me turn around and never come back. One bike shop that made my cut basically said "The electrical systems are outside of our comfort zone to work on but we can take care of anything else you need taken care of." As a technical person, by profession, I can appreciate that kind of honesty. Any bike shop that doesn't treat me like some sort of pariah for having an e-bike generally ends up getting a positive review from me at the end of the day. Mainly because those shops end up providing a positive experience when all is said and done.

Same here. Those that try to baffle with BS, on any level, will usually be drawn and quartered on the spot. I'm not in that store to win any popularity contests. Incompetence, and failure to admit when they don't know the answer to your question is a pet peeve I'm afraid. All they have to do is say "I'll have to check on that for you"! I'm good with that. Skip the "creative" answers please!

 

[steve mercier]

That reaction is 100% guaranteed to make me turn around and never come back. One bike shop that made my cut basically said "The electrical systems are outside of our comfort zone to work on but we can take care of anything else you need taken care of." As a technical person, by profession, I can appreciate that kind of honesty. Any bike shop that doesn't treat me like some sort of pariah for having an e-bike generally ends up getting a positive review from me at the end of the day. Mainly because those shops end up providing a positive experience when all is said and done.

Any bike shop that hates Ebikes will soon be out of biz since it is the only sector of the industry that is growing.

 

[tomjasz]

Not at all what I said. One asshat in charge of bike service at that store does color that store's service dep't.

I sincerely apologize for having misconstrued your comment.

 

[Nomad]

In regards to Amazon vs. shopping locally. The local shops that carry the items that I require and treat me right get my business. Unfortunately most of the shops around here don't have the items I require or have treated me like a know-nothing wallet with legs. I'm not going to prop up local businesses that don't have what I require or treat me poorly just because they are local or both.

What you want someone to actually earn your business what are you thinking!

 

[Alaskan]

I sincerely apologize for having misconstrued your comment.

No harm, no foul. Thanks

 

[Mass Deduction]

Any bike shop that hates Ebikes will soon be out of biz since it is the only sector of the industry that is growing.

I totally agree. I'm amazed at how many people here report experiences where their local shops don't sell e-bikes and/or won't work on them. Our shop's been selling e-bikes since 2003, and in that time has sold complete e-bikes, assisted customers with e-bike conversions, converted e-bikes, sold hub motor systems, sold mid-drive systems, you name it. We have 16 years of experimentation before settling into our current niche. So to imagine a shop that just won't go there at all... that blows my mind.

I have sympathy for a shop declining to do service when an e-bike comes in where the shop can't get parts for the system. It's an imbalanced risk/reward system when proposing that the shop do an inexpensive service job on a bike where, if something goes wrong, the shop can't get parts and the customer wants them to do something about their now non-operational $2000-ish bike. But the shop should just be honest about it. It's fine for a shop to admit that they can't get parts and/or aren't expert on that system.

Most shops around my town will work on e-bikes, but won't work on systems that aren't sold through normal retail channels due to parts availability hassles should something go wrong. Or if they do, will only work on the bicycle components, and may even make them sign a waiver that the shop's not liable for anything about the electric system, since the shop's not working on the electrical side of the bike. Shops live in fear of a problem of coincidental timing, when they didn't do anything to the electric system but as a mere coincidence the problem crops up around the time the customer picks up the bike. How does the shop prove that it was coincidental timing, and not something the shop did?

Because of this imbalanced risk/reward proposition, the shop may charge more labour for something esoteric than they would something broadly available from their suppliers. Charging more for a hub motor flat repair (vs. a mid-drive or muscle bike flat repair) is also something some shops do here.

 

[AHicks]

Hard to find fault with charging more for a hub motor flat, but when it gets down to the nuts and bolts after actually doing just a few of them, I think you'll see they shouldn't take that much longer. The biggest difference being dealing with decent torque arms. They require a few extra minutes to disconnect and reinstall. Electrical doesn't really need to be disturbed. The hub?wheel, as long as you can lift it up high enough for the gears to clear the derailleur, should let you pull the old tube out and put the new tube in on the side opposite the wiring - with the wiring intact.

 

[tomjasz]

The sales people in REI always seem to comment on low member numbers... 459xxx from 1971!

Wrong number posted, made an order yesterday 204xxx

 

[FlatSix911]

Wrong number posted, made an order yesterday 204xxx

I think REI should offer a 10-20% discount to anyone who has over 50 years of loyal membership!

 

[erider_61]

Are you all finished hijacking this thread?

 

[Alex M]

The strongest argument is that mid-drives, all other things being equal, can climb steeper hills.

The somewhat less strong argument is that a mid-drive uses fewer watt-hours per mile, so you can go further on a given battery charge.

Doesn't quite fit the definition of a "life saving" asked by Duke, does it... If your area is hilly enough to mandate a mid because hub won't cut it, then you buy a mid. This is not a sudden scenario of something breaking down while riding within the bike specs/capabilities.

The second argument I would consider to be closer to a sudden situation, there are fewer chances to get stranded with lower watt/mile ratio of a mid drive. But then, mid systems typically have a slightly smaller battery too.

Like somebody said, we should consider our personal needs - health and terrain including. Unpredictable/low quality of many parts on <2K bikes is a curse that you choose (or don't). Good pedals, cranks and chains can still break and then hub throttle will save your ars, a mid won't (not with a chain failure). An old fact, not an argument even.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Doesn't quite fit the definition of a "life saving" asked by Duke, does it... If your area is hilly enough to mandate a mid because hub won't cut it, then you buy a mid. This is not a sudden scenario of something breaking down while riding within the bike specs/capabilities.

The second argument I would consider to be closer to a sudden situation, there are fewer chances to get stranded with lower watt/mile ratio of a mid drive. But then, mid systems typically have a slightly smaller battery too.

Like somebody said, we should consider our personal needs - health and terrain including. Unpredictable/low quality of many parts on <2K bikes is a curse that you choose (or don't). Good pedals, cranks and chains can still break and then hub throttle will save your ars, a mid won't (not with a chain failure). An old fact, not an argument even.

I can't and won't argue that if mid-drives are out of your price range, or if you live in a pretty flat area, or that you're a do-it-yourselfer, or that you want an overpowered bike that has lots of tuning options, or probably some other situations that aren't occurring to me at the moment, that a hub motor could be a solution for you.

However, I find it interesting that the potential of a chain breaking on a mid-drive is frequently cited, but the increased chance of a broken spoke on a hub motor is rarely cited. Broken chains on mid-drives appears to be a rare occurrence. Rarer than a hub motor getting a broken spoke in our experience, as we get several customers a year with broken spokes on their hub motors but I don't think we've ever had a mid-drive with a broken chain. So to raise one possibility and not raise the other possibility seems unbalanced. Unless you're proposing that you might ride home on a wheel with one or more broken spokes? I guess you could, in theory, but in practice it'll put a lot of stress on the wheel and increase the odds that by the time you get home it's now a full re-spoking of the wheel rather than just replacing a single broken spoke.

Personally, if I get a broken spoke the trip is over and I'm walking the bike to the nearest bus stop and putting the bike on the bus' bike rack, so to me a broken spoke and a broken chain are equivalent as they both end the ride. Except a broken chain on a mid-drive is a less common and less expensive repair (and one that most bike shops can repair with what they have in stock). Whereas a broken spoke on a hub motor seems to be a more common problem, is likely to be more expensive, and the bike shop is less likely to have what they need in stock to deal with it.

If your local bike shop can even get spokes for hub motors, that is. None of our suppliers offer the gauge of spokes that are typical on hub motors. Muscle bikes and mid-drives tend to use 2.0mm spokes, whereas hub motor wheels tend to use 2.4mm spokes. At one time we could get 2.4mm spokes from our BionX supplier in a few different lengths, but they didn't always have the length we needed and we can't get them any longer in any case.

TLDR; a broken spoke could happen on a mid, but a broken spoke could be just as bad (or worse) and could be more likely to happen on a hub motor.

 

[steve mercier]

I had a hub drive that kept breaking spokes among other issues... I chucked it after 6000 km . Currently have 15000+ km on a mid drive . No broken spokes and no broken chains so far. Replacing a chain is infinitely easier than replacing broken spokes on the wheel with the hub motor.

 

[Ken M]

I can't and won't argue that if mid-drives are out of your price range, or if you live in a pretty flat area, or that you're a do-it-yourselfer, or that you want an overpowered bike that has lots of tuning options, or probably some other situations that aren't occurring to me at the moment, that a hub motor could be a solution for you.

However, I find it interesting that the potential of a chain breaking on a mid-drive is frequently cited, but the increased chance of a broken spoke on a hub motor is rarely cited. Broken chains on mid-drives appears to be a rare occurrence. Rarer than a hub motor getting a broken spoke in our experience, as we get several customers a year with broken spokes on their hub motors but I don't think we've ever had a mid-drive with a broken chain. So to raise one possibility and not raise the other possibility seems unbalanced. Unless you're proposing that you might ride home on a wheel with one or more broken spokes? I guess you could, in theory, but in practice it'll put a lot of stress on the wheel and increase the odds that by the time you get home it's now a full re-spoking of the wheel rather than just replacing a single broken spoke.

Personally, if I get a broken spoke the trip is over and I'm walking the bike to the nearest bus stop and putting the bike on the bus' bike rack, so to me a broken spoke and a broken chain are equivalent as they both end the ride. Except a broken chain on a mid-drive is a less common and less expensive repair (and one that most bike shops can repair with what they have in stock). Whereas a broken spoke on a hub motor seems to be a more common problem, is likely to be more expensive, and the bike shop is less likely to have what they need in stock to deal with it.

If your local bike shop can even get spokes for hub motors, that is. None of our suppliers offer the gauge of spokes that are typical on hub motors. Muscle bikes and mid-drives tend to use 2.0mm spokes, whereas hub motor wheels tend to use 2.4mm spokes. At one time we could get 2.4mm spokes from our BionX supplier in a few different lengths, but they didn't always have the length we needed and we can't get them any longer in any case.

TLDR; a broken spoke could happen on a mid, but a broken spoke could be just as bad (or worse) and could be more likely to happen on a hub motor.

You brought up a great point. While I mainly ride a DD hub drive ebike, I have had 3 spokes break in about 5,000 miles. I have no clue why the OEMs that push hub drives have not solved this. I think it's mainly due to the rims not allowing the increased nipple angles so the spokes tend to experience a dramatically higher bending force right where the spoke enters the nipple. I haven't tried this yet myself but my guess is the rim can be countersunk a bit differently to allow the nipple to align with the spoke angle to prevent the bending. Fix that and just utilize 12 gauge spokes and my guess is spokes would last many many miles.

Note: I don't want to be negative about this but the bike industry (driven by bean counters that care more about profits than good products) allow the broken spoke issue to exist because it's a service and parts money maker. Not until some of the companies fix the problem and brag about will the bad bean counters get ignored.

You are also right about chains. They rarely break (unless the rider just doesn't understand how to shift an ebike) they just stretch a bit faster.

I think my biggest issue with mid-drives (and it's rarely mentioned in these comparisons) is that gear ratio that helps their climbing at slow speeds has a negative impact on performance at high speeds when the ratio dramatically reduces the torque transmitted to the rear wheel. Hub drives do have less torque at slower speeds but if you have ridden ebikes at speeds over 20mph much you quickly realize why most mid drives have 20mph assist cut-offs (they really don't help much above 20mph unless very high torque and/or the Kt of the motor is optimized for the higher speeds).

 

[indianajo]

Hub drives do have less torque at slower speeds but if you have ridden ebikes at speeds over 20mph much you quickly realize why most mid drives have 20mph assist cut-offs (they really don't help much above 20mph unless very high torque and/or the Kt of the motor is optimized for the higher speeds).

You are still lumping DD hub motors & geared hub motors in the same category. THEY ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!!! Geared hubs have lots of low end torque, and enough speed to bruise my **** on the pavement we have around here.
Plus about spokes, the angles are less extreme on the geared hubs, because the DD hubs are so big. I haven't broken any in 3000 mi, have a motor that cost a whole $221, and am waiting for the shoe to drop. The rim is cheapo double wall, & I don't think the quality of the steel spokes I bought were all that great, but with 330 lb gross no problems yet. If I break a spoke I carry cutters long enough to cut the broken one off if it causes a flat. I rode for months on 35 spokes on my schwinn mtb, I can't imagine an electric wheel is all that much worse. I don't jump curbs or ride on picnic tables, that's my limitation that causes sane spoke performance.

 

[steve mercier]

You are still lumping DD hub motors & geared hub motors in the same category. THEY ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!!! Geared hubs have lots of low end torque, and enough speed to bruise my **** on the pavement we have around here.
Plus about spokes, the angles are less extreme on the geared hubs, because the DD hubs are so big. I haven't broken any in 3000 mi, have a motor that cost a whole $221, and am waiting for the shoe to drop. The rim is cheapo double wall, & I don't think the quality of the steel spokes I bought were all that great, but with 330 lb gross no problems yet. If I break a spoke I carry cutters long enough to cut the broken one off if it causes a flat. I rode for months on 35 spokes on my schwinn mtb, I can't imagine an electric wheel is all that much worse. I don't jump curbs or ride on picnic tables, that's my limitation that causes sane spoke performance.

Yeah that is how I had to ride my Motorino hub bike. Stop and hold it's hand while it went over a bump. Anyways I only have experience with 2 hub motored bikes. The one cheap but powerful Motorino spoke breaker bike and the lightweight underpowered Yunbike C1 which never came close to breaking anything. If a company cares enough about reliability instead of simply the lowest price I am sure they can overcome this issue. But I think there may be many more who do not care.

 

[Mass Deduction]

You are still lumping DD hub motors & geared hub motors in the same category. THEY ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!!! Geared hubs have lots of low end torque, and enough speed to bruise my **** on the pavement we have around here.
Plus about spokes, the angles are less extreme on the geared hubs, because the DD hubs are so big. I haven't broken any in 3000 mi, have a motor that cost a whole $221, and am waiting for the shoe to drop. The rim is cheapo double wall, & I don't think the quality of the steel spokes I bought were all that great, but with 330 lb gross no problems yet. If I break a spoke I carry cutters long enough to cut the broken one off if it causes a flat. I rode for months on 35 spokes on my schwinn mtb, I can't imagine an electric wheel is all that much worse. I don't jump curbs or ride on picnic tables, that's my limitation that causes sane spoke performance.

My point wasn't that hub motors break spokes all the time, it was the opposite. Hub motor bikes break spokes more frequently, but still only occasionally. Mid-drives break chains even less frequently. So neither is a big issue, yet the mid-drive breaking chains point is brought up disproportionately frequently to how minor a potential issue it is IMO. Yet a slightly more frequent issue (hub motors breaking spokes) is rarely if ever brought up.

I certainly wouldn't make either broken spokes *or* broken chains a significant factor in any e-bike purchasing decision!

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I think it should be pointed out, in fairness, that an acoustic bike might also have a chain or a spoke break. If you are riding any kind of bike you should have some way of dealing with equipment failure, even if it involves calling your mom for a ride.

 

[MechaNut]

The correct quick link for a chain is pretty cheap, light, and easy to keep in an emergency repair kit along with a basic chain tool. I'd say that the drive break that is hard to deal with is a carbon belt. Mainly because you have to completely replace the belt and not everyone has a spare on hand. Then again belts last a lot longer, don't require regular maintenance, and handle higher torque motor applications better than a bike chain so it is less of an issue.

 

[AHicks]

You are still lumping DD hub motors & geared hub motors in the same category. THEY ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!!! Geared hubs have lots of low end torque, and enough speed to bruise my **** on the pavement we have around here.

My pet peeve as well. Direct drive and gear driven rear hub performance characteristics are light years apart, so people refering to both by saying just "hub drive" without qualifying what they are thinking of more clearly with the use of "gear" or "direct", I have to assume don't know what they are talking about. That, or they are trying to deliberately mislead. Unfortunately for those following, that are still trying to get a grip on the different drive systems, they loose out, as they are getting either incomplete or misleading info. No way around that....