Are mid drives just naturally less zippy than hub motors?

[SC00CHB00CH]

I concur that hub drives do appear to be more naturally zippy. But with so many variables at play the answer could go either way. Bike weight , wattage , rider skill , controllers , gearing , etc.
I've learned a lot from the forum and have started to look at hub drives in a more positive light. I'm looking at getting one of the geared hubs for the hummingbird. The 250/500 watts stock version doesn't excite me. The simplicity of a rear hub has me excited again. I don't have to worry so much about cassette slippage under torque which took me forever to get the slippage under torque using the 11th tooth rear on a flat road at top speed it would skip. But when I sold it it was dialed in perfect no gears slipped under torque , even under load , lets say pulling up hill in the wrong gear (say 11) it still didn't slip which was kind of a small miracle.

I had to use a Lekkie BBSHD chainring on a BBS02 motor , had to core out the middle and add new holes on the ring. The offset wasn't enough on the BBS02 version of the same 52T chainring. I also used 4 spacers behind the chainring to really bring the chain in line mostly with the 11th tooth which was the Achilles heel of the build. I could get by with the 34 tooth being way out of the chain-line it would still grab fine. The 11th tooth cog was the one that slipped on a pure flat road at top speed it would skip skip skip. Finally got it dialed in just right.

Am I stupid? Probably , I've broken a collar bone , had two concussions and broke my tibial plateau riding bikes over the years and doing stupid stuff. I guess I'm a daredevil. I even got hit by a car going 40mph , got up on my bike and proceed to ride to work. The guy was like hey man "your shoulder blade is sticking out of your back you may need an ambulance." I didn't feel it.

When broke my tibial plateau doing a 20 foot jump that hurt like a B. But I made the jump. heh . well , anyways

I'm not the average biker ,probably the 1st one to say "hold my beer" and then break a femur.


But I've mellowed over the years and don't want to break any more bones which is the reason I sold the death rocket on Ebay for way too cheap. There was a close call where I hit a berm on it at good speed and the front wheel got locked into crevice , so I knew what was coming and rolled off the bike safely. I really respect everyone on this forum even the ones that blocked me , I hope you have a good life and enjoy this wonderful world , we only get one chance at it so if I can say thank you then thank you for your knowledge. I am humbled and have learned a lot. Make the best of each day you never know which one is your last so be grateful for your family and the ones you love , even your enemies need a hug. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. I'm 4 beers in so keep that in mind. haha

 

[linklemming]

I concur that hub drives do appear to be more naturally zippy. But with so many variables at play the answer could go either way. Bike weight , wattage , rider skill , controllers , gearing , etc.
I've learned a lot from the forum and have started to look at hub drives in a more positive light. I'm looking at getting one of the geared hubs for the hummingbird. The 250/500 watts stock version doesn't excite me. The simplicity of a rear hub has me excited again. I don't have to worry so much about cassette slippage under torque which took me forever to get the slippage under torque using the 11th tooth rear on a flat road at top speed it would skip. But when I sold it it was dialed in perfect no gears slipped under torque , even under load , lets say pulling up hill in the wrong gear (say 11) it still didn't slip which was kind of a small miracle.

Am I stupid? Probably , I've broken a collar bone , had two concussions and broke my tibial plateau riding bikes over the years and doing stupid stuff. I guess I'm a daredevil. I even got hit by a car going 40mph , got up on my bike and proceed to ride to work. The guy was like hey man "your shoulder blade is sticking out of your back you may need an ambulance." I didn't feel it.

When broke my tibial plateau doing a 20 foot jump that hurt like a B. But I made the jump. heh . well , anyways

I'm not the average biker ,probably the 1st one to say "hold my beer" and then break a femur.


But I've mellowed over the years and don't want to break any more bones which is the reason I sold the death rockect on Ebay for way too cheap. There was a close call where I hit a berm on it at good speed and the front wheel got locked into crevice , so I knew what was coming and rolled off the bike safely.

I would consider a hub motor considerably more complicated with torque arms and all the extra wiring (I am a fan of minimalistic wiring). It does solve the issues of applying alot of torque thru the drivetrain though. Thanks to the advice from m@Robertson, a DT swiss 350 hybrid rear hub, the correct rear cassette (Shimano 9 speed HG400 in my case) and ebike specific KMC chain solves most of the issues.

I am actually much more of a mid-drive fan, but the GMAC has its place. I have it setup with a torque sensor and to be honest, without a torque sensor I would be strictly on BBSHD

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

It will be interesting to see what the new owner of my bike installs.

I would consider a hub motor considerably more complicated with torque arms and all the extra wiring (I am a fan of minimalistic wiring). It does solve the issues of applying alot of torque thru the drivetrain though. Thanks to the advice from m@Robertson, a DT swiss 350 hybrid rear hub, the correct rear cassette (Shimano 9 speed HG400 in my case) and ebike specific KMC chain solves most of the issues.

I am actually much more of a mid-drive fan, but the GMAC has its place. I have it setup with a torque sensor and to be honest, without a torque sensor I would be strictly on BBSHD

Understood thank you for your knowledge sir. Kind regards.

 

[knightrider]

It depends on if you want to ride a scooter, or a bicycle. And really the feel is based on how each controller is programmed. We have riders who say their hub motors kick in too hard even in low PAS settings, and then there are people who still want more power from their hub drive. Some complain their mid drive destroys chains from the crazy power, and they there are those who love the torque sensors and true bicycle feel. There is no general blanket that describes the rider preference nor motor preference. It's about personal styles and programming.

 

[knightrider]

It depends on if you want to ride a scooter, or a bicycle. And really the feel is based on how each controller is programmed. We have riders who say their hub motors kick in too hard even in low PAS settings, and then there are people who still want more power from their hub drive. Some complain their mid drive destroys chains from the crazy power, and they there are those who love the torque sensors and true bicycle feel. There is no general blanket that describes the rider preference nor motor preference. It's about personal styles and programming.

You are so right about the controller programming. I have one pace 500 bike that will lift the front wheel on throttle with no problem. I have another that won`t even come close. I have a 3wk old adventure aventon that reacts like a torque sensor. The motor comes in very slowly an quite subtle. Programming I suppose. We have 4 aventons with 4 diff. personalities.

 

[tomjasz]

so far.

 

[Jacko]

Not quite. The Evelo Omega I have been riding does have a throttle but the zippiness/acceleration still doesn't quite match my Juiced. I do agree that the Evelo feels a bit more bike-like than the Juiced though.

I guess I would say I like ebikes that take away the weight of the pedals while still leaving just enough resistance that I feel like I'm riding a bike and not ghost pedaling. Almost like the bike always feels like you are casually pedaling on flat ground no matter if you are taking off from a dead stop, going up a hill, or trying to reach max speed.

I'm not sure which component of the bike has the biggest effect on giving you that feeling. Motor type? Pedal assist sensor type? Controller programming? I may be rambling

I have a Evelo Aurora and it seems I have to work harder than my other bike; 500 watt rear Bafang with derail. ????

 

[Jacko]

As a analog road biker who rode 6000 miles a year, in Minnesota with a 7 month season, I know very well how to shift a manual bike tranny.

I will repeat my experience of testing all brands and never finding a mid that feels as natural as my hub Stromers. It feels like you with the legs of Mark Cavendish when you want it to.

Your experience may vary but I will keep testing different configurations. So far, hub was the most natural….

wow I'm finally realizing that. I have been riding a 500 watt hub with derail for 2 yrs. I decided to by a mid motor with a enviolo hub manual twist shifter. (Evelo Aurora SL) I just don't like the feel. I also feel I have to work way to hard to get the speed and cadence I like on the Evelo. WTF I thought these mid drives were the ticket what's going on is it me??????

 

[Jacko]

As a analog road biker who rode 6000 miles a year, in Minnesota with a 7 month season, I know very well how to shift a manual bike tranny.

I will repeat my experience of testing all brands and never finding a mid that feels as natural as my hub Stromers. It feels like you with the legs of Mark Cavendish when you want it to.

Your experience may vary but I will keep testing different configurations. So far, hub was the most natural….

 

[mschwett]

for those who think there’s some inherent difference based on the placement of the motor, think about it this way :

a mid drive has a motor with a clutch/freewheel between the pedals, which allows the chainring to spin faster/harder than your pedaling force only would allow. the top side of the chain is in tension to the rear hub/cassette.

a rear hub drive has a rigid connection between the pedals and the chainring, the top side of the chain is in tension to the rear hub… which has a clutch/freewheel that allows the motor to spin the wheel harder than your pedaling force only would allow.

basically the clutch is moved from “before” the chain to after. either system can control the motor power based on whatever sensors are present - cadence, speed, torque, heart rate, whatever. if you programmed a mid drive to go to full power regardless of speed as soon as the pedals moved, it would have that same scooter feeling that a throttled hub drive can have. similarly, a hub drive with smart programming based on a torque sensor can feel incredibly natural.

i have two very similar e-bikes at the moment - one mid drive, one rear hub. both in the 200-300w range. torque sensors. similar controllers. there are differences but they feel remarkably similar.

here are five meaningful differences, IMO :

the weight of the rear hub drive is at the back, not the middle, which can be very awkward if the motor is heavy. when you’re pedaling with the motor off, you are spinning motor parts around. for a lightweight hub with a small diameter this isn’t noticeable, but a very heavy large diameter motor, it takes work to spin it up.

even at high power, the hub drive can be shifted without easing off on the pedals, since it’s not pulling on the chain. this is surprisingly cool in real life, since most modern electric drivetrains shift really well under the moderate load of a rider pedaling, and you can just ease off for a split second if you choose without needing to let the motor stop.

the mid drive motor needs to be designed for more torque and less speed, because it’s affected by gearing. remember that for use with human legs most bike gearing ranges from 1:4 to 1:1. the wheel is turning much faster than the cranks, generally. some MTB will have gearing approaching 1:2, but the high gear is still 3:1 or more. the hub motor has to be designed for a much wider range of speeds, because it’s directly coupled to the wheel speed!

on a mid drive, you can use standard wheels. on a hub drive, you can use standard cranks. both types are improving here - there are TQ powered mid drives with 2x road drivetrains and the mahle x20 rear motor uses a standard through axle and cassettes, virtually indistinguishable from a normal wheel at first glance.

visually, the mid drive looks much less like a “normal” bike. some may care about this, i doubt most do.

 

[PedalUma]

which allows the chainring to spin faster

I personally like the mid's that are always synced to pedal speed. Pedal pressure is monitored continuously as well as pedaling speed. The chainring moves only at the exact rate of pedaling cadence pulling the chain, with no lag ever, or over-run lag; Good bikes are Immediate, responsive. Feels like a bike. Trashy systems have lag, surge, over-run, and can be ghost pedaled, meaning the chainring speed does not correspond to the pedaling speed. Chainring speed must be the the same as pedaling speed with no lag, surge, or over-run on a decent eBike.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

for those who think there’s some inherent difference based on the placement of the motor, think about it this way :

a mid drive has a motor with a clutch/freewheel between the pedals, which allows the chainring to spin faster/harder than your pedaling force only would allow. the top side of the chain is in tension to the rear hub/cassette.

a rear hub drive has a rigid connection between the pedals and the chainring, the top side of the chain is in tension to the rear hub… which has a clutch/freewheel that allows the motor to spin the wheel harder than your pedaling force only would allow.

basically the clutch is moved from “before” the chain to after. either system can control the motor power based on whatever sensors are present - cadence, speed, torque, heart rate, whatever. if you programmed a mid drive to go to full power regardless of speed as soon as the pedals moved, it would have that same scooter feeling that a throttled hub drive can have. similarly, a hub drive with smart programming based on a torque sensor can feel incredibly natural.

i have two very similar e-bikes at the moment - one mid drive, one rear hub. both in the 200-300w range. torque sensors. similar controllers. there are differences but they feel remarkably similar.

here are five meaningful differences, IMO :

the weight of the rear hub drive is at the back, not the middle, which can be very awkward if the motor is heavy. when you’re pedaling with the motor off, you are spinning motor parts around. for a lightweight hub with a small diameter this isn’t noticeable, but a very heavy large diameter motor, it takes work to spin it up.

even at high power, the hub drive can be shifted without easing off on the pedals, since it’s not pulling on the chain. this is surprisingly cool in real life, since most modern electric drivetrains shift really well under the moderate load of a rider pedaling, and you can just ease off for a split second if you choose without needing to let the motor stop.

the mid drive motor needs to be designed for more torque and less speed, because it’s affected by gearing. remember that for use with human legs most bike gearing ranges from 1:4 to 1:1. the wheel is turning much faster than the cranks, generally. some MTB will have gearing approaching 1:2, but the high gear is still 3:1 or more. the hub motor has to be designed for a much wider range of speeds, because it’s directly coupled to the wheel speed!

on a mid drive, you can use standard wheels. on a hub drive, you can use standard cranks. both types are improving here - there are TQ powered mid drives with 2x road drivetrains and the mahle x20 rear motor uses a standard through axle and cassettes, virtually indistinguishable from a normal wheel at first glance.

visually, the mid drive looks much less like a “normal” bike. some may care about this, i doubt most do.

Excellent engineering analysis. Amazing how people get emotionally tied to something as inanimate as a drivetrain configuration and then lose sight of the physical realities involved.

Not saying that mid-drives and hub-drives have identical ride-feels. But I have decades of cycling under my belt. I know what pedaling an unmotorized bike feels like, and the power delivery on my torque-sensing hub-drive feels pretty natural to me. Anyone who thinks otherwise should come ride it.

 

[Rome]

Zippy the pinhead here like join you guys conversation.
Honestly I prefer mid drive motors because it's more easy for me to maintain. Owned an Aventon level but found out it wasn't suitable for my daily commute which is mostly flat unpaved pathways. It was zippy on asphalt then I bought an emtb with Brose motor, that was the beginning of my search for a more powerful mid drive ebike motor. I settled on Bafang M620 ultra Biktrix came out with Monte Capro to me it was was the perfect emtb and it doesn't disappoint. I've had it for al little over a year and it still satisfies my zippy cravings.
I want to add that hub motors are throttled that alone will make it zippy.

 

[BigNerd]

I have a rear hub motor with a torque sensor and on flats it's okay but uphill less zippy. It's also a smaller motor so that may be another consideration.

 

[PedalUma]

should come ride it

That is it. You must ride them, then feel the difference. It is like talking about wines without ever tasting. Ride it Ride it, You Got'ta Ride it Ride it. Ride it Ride it. Come on. Woo.

 

[PCeBiker]

Zippy the pinhead here like join you guys conversation.
Honestly I prefer mid drive motors because it's more easy for me to maintain.

I prefer my rear hub drive because there is no drive chain maintenance when you don't pedal unless you have to.

My ebike has nearly 4000 km on it with about 30 km on the chain and sprockets.

 

[Rome]

I've been wanting another ebike and I'm doing some searching for a 3rd ebike
preferably LBS supported.
Not full on cargo ebike but with racks to attach panniers. No trailers anything like that but I want it zippy comfortable and maneuverable. Just for doing light errands to give my other ebikes a break.
I've deleted my handlebar bags and have been using back pack.
3lbs of banana 2lbs of oranges add 3lbs more of Korean pears a pineapple and some mangoes. Weight adds up on my back.

 

[PCeBiker]

I use my ten dollar e-bike to get groceries.
Up to 70 pounds in the box.

It's a good thing that my batteries are heavy.
It keeps the nose down.

 

[Rome]

Those are not your conventional ebike batteries man, they remind me of batteries for a small electric boat.

 

[PCeBiker]

Those are not your conventional ebike batteries man, they remind me of batteries for a small electric boat.

Ohh yeah!, no s*it!!
There's three 12V SLA batteries Zip-Tied to my floorboards.

These Sealed Lead Acid batteries were the conventional power source before lithium ion.

That e-bike is 25 years old.