Jeremy McCreary
Bought it anyway
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- Carlsbad, CA
Supersonic drag chutes have to be designed a little differently.
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Are mid drives just naturally less zippy than hub motors?
- Thread starter rjdavis4
- Start date
SC00CHB00CH
Active Member
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- USA
I spoke with the gentlemen from CHRISTINI bike he had this to say regarding his AWD bike design.
"I briefly looked at the thread. Have him read up on how AWD works. All the torque is applied to the rear wheel until the instant the rear wheel slips and then that torque is shared to the front. The freewheel clutch in the front does this by only engaging when the rear slips. Active Traction control thus it’s very efficient and only transfers power when there is a loss or rear wheel traction."- Christini inventor
Pretty much already what was said in this thread with some possible confusion about torque but it's nice for the clarification from the inventor.
christinibicycles.com
He also referenced this AUDI article.
www.slashgear.com
In a sprint to 15mph/24kmh. Here's a pro hub drive video where he says and I quote "We're both running 52volts , we're both running Phaserunners , we're both running 2500 watts , and if we use throttle only , the mid-drive will leave me for dust." -QUOTE from video
But when pedaling is involved the benefits of a mid-drive is negated.
Now I will add he has a pro-hub-drive stance and actually makes good claims for hub drive motors and why they are better in many instances. One thing I could not tell is if the mid-drive guy was shifting past the point where he "left the hub-drive in the dust", (15mph/24kmh) He doesn't appear to be shifting into higher gears. Either way this is apples to apples in a short sprint and the mid-drive "leaves him for dust."
Either way an apples to apples comparison , throttle only on a HUB-DRIVE pro video he admit that he was ""left for dust" on the starting sprint from a comparable mid-drive . Now we can argue next to Sunday whether or not the mid drive shifted after the sprint he appears not to, IMO. Because if one assumes and is logical if he beat him from a sprint in 1st gear then wouldn't every other gear do the same? PERHAPS yes ,perhaps no?
Either way in regards to zippy the winner is Frank Stallone.
"I briefly looked at the thread. Have him read up on how AWD works. All the torque is applied to the rear wheel until the instant the rear wheel slips and then that torque is shared to the front. The freewheel clutch in the front does this by only engaging when the rear slips. Active Traction control thus it’s very efficient and only transfers power when there is a loss or rear wheel traction."- Christini inventor
Pretty much already what was said in this thread with some possible confusion about torque but it's nice for the clarification from the inventor.
Home
christinibicycles.com
He also referenced this AUDI article.
How The Audi Quattro Became The Most Iconic Rally Car Of All Time - SlashGear
The first Audi Quattro was revealed at the 1980 Geneva Motor Show featuring a milestone all-wheel-drive system, earning itself a place in automotive history.
www.slashgear.com
In a sprint to 15mph/24kmh. Here's a pro hub drive video where he says and I quote "We're both running 52volts , we're both running Phaserunners , we're both running 2500 watts , and if we use throttle only , the mid-drive will leave me for dust." -QUOTE from video
But when pedaling is involved the benefits of a mid-drive is negated.
Now I will add he has a pro-hub-drive stance and actually makes good claims for hub drive motors and why they are better in many instances. One thing I could not tell is if the mid-drive guy was shifting past the point where he "left the hub-drive in the dust", (15mph/24kmh) He doesn't appear to be shifting into higher gears. Either way this is apples to apples in a short sprint and the mid-drive "leaves him for dust."
Either way an apples to apples comparison , throttle only on a HUB-DRIVE pro video he admit that he was ""left for dust" on the starting sprint from a comparable mid-drive . Now we can argue next to Sunday whether or not the mid drive shifted after the sprint he appears not to, IMO. Because if one assumes and is logical if he beat him from a sprint in 1st gear then wouldn't every other gear do the same? PERHAPS yes ,perhaps no?
Either way in regards to zippy the winner is Frank Stallone.
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AHicks
Well-Known Member
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- USA
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
IMHO, it would be easier to cut the pony tail off....
Jason Knight
Well-Known Member
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- USA
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- Keene, NH
Which strikes me as odd since I got it so that I could go fast enough on roads to get to paths, or so I can go shopping with it without feeling like I was getting run off the road. I've found people in cars seem to see me more on the e-bike and not get as pissed off with my presence.
But that attitude seems to be more common amongst our friends across the pond, who live in countries that have all sorts of crazy luxuries like bicycle infrastructure, flat well prepared and maintained surfaces, and drivers who actually don't mind cyclists existing, much less being on the road.
Aka "Not in 'Murica!"
That's a fair statement. I tend to do both, but I ride differently when I do either. I might barrel down route 101 or Rt 9 at 32mph trying to avoid the cars and trucks who seem to want me dead by my mere presence on a bicycle, doesn't mean I don't drop down below 15mph when on a shared use rail trail, or 10mph or less in Elmer Fudd territory. Or end up below 10mph in the highest assist mode just because I have to deal with 30+ grade hills... even on some of the bike paths.
There's a reason I think city dwelling flatlanders can **** right off with their opinions of what I "need" or "should be allowed to have."
It feels to me like a lot of riders only ride their bikes on one type of route / path, in one or two assist settings, in only one or two gears. At least that's what it sounds like when they talk about it. If you're going down the side of a main road where bikes aren't allowed on sidewalks, there are no sidewalks, and there's no breakdown or bike lane, those higher speeds are a blessing.
Doesn't mean those of us who want or even need those speeds behave like jackasses blowing down a MUP at 30!
Which is laughable since -- in my admittedly limited experience -- the top speed on throttle tends to be two-thirds or less the top speed of the highest power assist if you dial in the drivetrain properly... and tends to be slower than speeds I was able to achieve on a crappy non-electric steel framed 3 speed internal gear hub beach cruiser back when I was 100 pounds heavier! Equating the presence of throttle riding to the highest speed is the exact opposite of how throttles seem to work, and IMHO just means the people running their mouths about that have never actually ridden a bike with one!
When cyclists who are "anti-speed" talk about 20mph as some sort of "batshit" speed that's a danger to others, I wonder just what the bloody blue blazes is in the huffing tainted flavor-aid! I've seen articles by so-called "experts" talking about that, and it's like "on what freaking planet?"
If I can break 20mph on a crappy $250 Micargi Tahiti Nexus 3, being able to throttle to that speed (slowly, weakly, and kind-of uselessly) is not a "danger to others".
Both this "level" system and the whackjob "wah wah teh evil throttle" arguments really sound like people talking out their arses, utterly devoid of any concept of reality. Though admittedly, that describes 90%+ of all societal norms! Painfully and ignorantly arbitrary. Kind of like the ridiculously dumbass idea that how a piece of cloth is cut and dyed can somehow be magically gender specific. Our friends in spandex and wearing nappy's know what I'm talking about there. Or the "negative connotation" of men riding step-throughs where we basically need to tell the sexist bigots to go plow themselves.
Again, it's all about the ratios as you clearly showed. And I hear you on not being able to maintain a high cadence. I find anything over 60 near impossible to keep up with at my age. It's one of the reasons I switched to an e-bike and retired the old cruiser to a place on the garage wall.
Nice tool BTW, shame it's accessibility garbage. Web developer by trade, specializing in accessibility and efficiency. Moment I see black text on dark grey it sets off my "well here's an accessibility lawsuit waiting to happen!" alarm.
Ooh, those are nice and tall. That's another thing I get flack for is riding 170's though I'm only 5'4" tall. I find anything smaller results in not having enough leverage to pedal comfortably, but again I find high cadence pedaling difficult, uncomfortable, and unreasonable. Though if I want a higher cadence on an e-bike, just downshift.
Mentioned that on my Aventure gearing thread, people saying things like "use a smaller chainring for a higher cadence" and my thinking "if the bottom 3 gears at ANY speed are so low as to be useless unpowered, why the blazes do you not have the room to downshift for that cadence?"
It's a bit like what Kaden told Ezra about Yoda's "There is no try". I don't understand it, but people sure to like to say it a lot.
Nice. I'm still arguing with myself over switching to an 11..40 from the 11..36. The only time I'd use that bottom one is an emergency like dead battery, dead controller, dead motor, got lost because online mapping services inhale on the proverbial equine of short stature, etc. etm. Something else some folks say -- I'm saying "folks" to be polite, I mean assclowns -- is that these things aren't meant to be ridden unpowered...
Sure, that's fine, that's the ideal. But what if something breaks when you're 10 miles from home. Then what? You going to push it the whole way because it's "not meant to be ridden unpowered". It's like the people complaining about extending the highest gear ratio even when you keep the lowest ratio well within the usable range. Do these jokers just slop their ride into the highest gear and leave it there? 'Cause that's what their complaints sound like.
I have. Four times.
First two times was on a pair of Nakto. Controller died two miles from home on the first one, sent it back for another, which died in my driveway on its third ride. Got refund, saved up, ordered the Aventure.
My first misaventure being the battery died and I didn't have a spare. Second time on the current bike I got misled by bad directions and got lost riding back from an unfamiliar direction, adding 16 miles to the route. Gone right I'd have come home with 30% power left, but with the cockup It was bone dry 2 miles from home.
Must be nice to have access to stuff like that. Such infrastructure doesn't entirely exist in my town, though I did pick up one of the EV charging station to 220v adapters and the chargers from Aventon do auto-sense 110 and 220.
There's only two places that have normal outlets in "parks" or "squares" within 20 miles, and using them without permission is a $500 fine. Just like for 20 miles there is ONE EV charging location, and it costs four times what normal ones do. Though if I go the 24 miles to Troy, they have like seven locations and two of them are free.
Regionalisms and infrastructure often take a piss on "best laid plans" or what precautions you can take. It's actually something that pisses me off in biking communities is how many privileged jerks go "Just take it to your LBS" or "Just use a EV charging station" or "I only ride on the bike paths" or dozens of other things that are either restricted, unavailable, or just plain don't exist everywhe
The wealthy and certain Europeans often seem to be the worst about this with their smug, self-centered, "why don't you just" attitudes. Then I'm the bad guy when I call them out on their bullshit.
It's the biking equivalent of the old meme about how Atheists are "disrespectful" of believers.
Which is not an option for many bikes, though bringing a second or third battery is. Though in the case of the charger, where I am? To plug it in WHERE?
But then when your ride takes you 15 miles from the nearest main road much less house, having a charger with you does exactly two things.
Ash: And Jack left town.
And there it is. So what if your battery just dies? Controller dies? Mapping app is full of BS and you're in unfamiliar territory?
Stuff breaks, it can be really helpful to have a backup plan. Otherwise, why even bother putting pedals on these things? At that point take them off, call it a moped, and be done with it. It's better to have the ability to do so and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
Assuming your vender didn't use some goofball proprietary connector with a sense wire that nobody's managed to reverse engineer yet. Or that you have the hours it takes to put enough charge on it to get home... hours that could have been better spent just peddling to get home.
Much less being anywhere near an AC outlet that someone will let you use. If I'm two-thirds of the way down the Ashuelot rail trail, that's not a thing for five+ miles in any direction. Well, unless I want to try and carry the 70 pound e-bike through a waist high river.
Jason Knight
Well-Known Member
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- Keene, NH
Do not let ambition shave your prince's lock!
I sent Moses to destroy a city, he returns in triumph.
I sent you to build a city. Where is it?
m@Robertson
Merciless (on the inside)
- Region
- USA
I have never ridden an ebike with this characteristic - where throttle is less than pedal assist. They are always right up around the same. On my KT 2wd bike I have geared it so I can ride hard just over the motors' top speed, but thats a conscious choice to get a hard workout and it took some unusual gearing to make that happen. Otherwise, on any KT hub motor controller PAS is going to result in identical top speed to throttle. However on those controllers, acceleration will go to the PAS side because there are PAS settings that let PAS kick in really fast, and a separate setting lets its increment from one level to another increase, so on that same 2wd hub bike, acceleration from a stop using only PAS is so hard it is borderline unsafe unless you are ready for it. But the top end is the same. On a BBSHD, PAS and throttle are again the same. But without the incremental boost over the acceleration curve that the KT controllers have. My HDs have PAS reduced so throttle delivers 1500w and just under 30a at peak, while PAS is going to peak at 19a and about 450w. So going up a super steep segment of a hill today, I used throttle for a boost over PAS. On myu CYC X1, throttle is WAY WAY higher than PAS because PAS just cannot reach up to the level that motor can go to, which is about 10000 rpms (before it gets reduced by the planetary). You can hit 40 mph on that bike which has a 34T front chainring. A bike geared like that is great for singletrack pedaling but PAS does not deliver speed. Really that is also true of my Surly with its 35T front BBSHD chainring. Go bigger on the chainring and sure they equalize, but that bike needs the small front ring and a 46T rear to get up the kind of hills we have here.
Here again I think its the difference between leisurely sightseeing and having a meeting in an hour and needing to get to the store first and then to work. Nobody cares about the scenery you can enjoy by slowing down in the latter instance and its a completely inappropriate demand to slow down a bike so it only caters to that kind of riding.
Conditioning lets you recover a lot of that. As I keep riding, my ability to get back up to sustained high cadence increases. I'll turn 60 in a couple of weeks and today I rode out to Laguna Seca up a bunch of hills. Kept up to about 75-80 sustained throughout the entire ride, which was about 25 miles roundtrip. If I lay off riding for any length of time my peak drops quickly to around 60. Same goes for my ass's ability to sit in the saddle. Dramatic difference - provided extended daily rides continue.
Thats part of the job of building a bike that has components that don't break, and keeping them in shape. Oftentimes that means money. Traditionally with cycling, there are two classes of quality components: The lightweight ones and the indestructible ones. Ones that do both are priced in the stratosphere and as far as I can see aren't even attempted for manufacture anymore (in particular the Mavic SSC group from the 1980's). Plus carrying with me the kind of tools I'd need to handle anything except a smashed wheel or frame. It helps to have been riding my entire life to be able to look back and know what has broken in the past and be ready for that again. So on the Surly today I have tubeless wheels, but I also carry a tube if something takes out the tire so I cannot reinflate it. I have two pumps - an electric and a backup hand version. And patches that will work on a tubeless tire so the tube I carry is a backup as well. And I don't carry a few spare chain links. I carry an entire pre-sized spare chain, and chain pliers and a chain breaker so my first attempt will be to repair the broken chain before I resort to the backup replacement. And so on. The trick is not to remember to carry enough tools but to pare down what you carry so you only have what you need for what is likely to break. I've seen ebike toolkits that are ridiculous - spare controllers, wiring, connectors, wire strippers and so on. Use a quality controller and make good connections with top quality connectors and your stuff doesn't break.
But for sure starting with a quality bike that is made to last makes most of the difference. We aren't talking about a $1500 ebike here. The Surly Big Fat Dummy retailed for $3600 and that was before the motor and the battery went on. And I upgraded the brakes and wheels for added durability. I built a road bike with those Mavic parts on it and I put around 12,000 miles a year on it for many years. I didn't change the rear cluster until it had 40,000 miles (I changed cogs, but not the underlying freewheel body... freewheel: this was the 1980's). How does a freewheel get 40,000 miles on it? It sure as hell doesn't come from China and it didn't cost $10.99 on Amazon.
That picv was in Clovis CA. Its common there to have an outlet at city parks at the covered picnic tables. I charged at a park today here in Pacific Grove. Same exact deal. A live electrical outlet, under a roof next to picnic tables under the same roof. Perfect place to kick back and relax while my charger pumped in 3 amps for about half an hour into the 21ah pack on that bike. On my 2Fat bike, because it runs on remote beaches with zero inland access, and you either get home destination before the tide comes in or else, I chose a charger capable of delivering 9 amps. Nine. Not safe on storebought ebikes but this is part of the benefit of rolling your own - in this case a 32ah pack with a serious BMS inside. The state beach I usually ride out to has a live outlet on the side of the building that has the public bathrooms.
Well, here again being the one who decides what gear goes into your bike will eliminate a lot of issues. I've never had a controller fail, ever. Same with a battery. But I'm only buying batteries from highly respected USA vendors, and half the time they are custom spec'd and not off the shelf. I have a 35ah pack with a 100a continuous power BMS sitting in my shop waiting to go into my current - and possibly last ever, for myself at least - bike build. I never had taken the route I did to Laguna Seca today, and I was unsure if I had enough battery power to get there and back. Sure enough I got lost but I kept my sense of direction, found some singletrack thru some manzanita scrub to get me thru what was in my way and it worked out.
I'm the guy that decides what connectors are where, as well as the wire lengths, wire gauge etc. So again controlling the construction of the bike yields dividends. Like that 9a charger that turns hours into a 30-minute rest stop. Just enough to eat the sandwich I took the time to pack and let my ass muscles get ready to be back in the saddle.
Took this to prove I was really able to sneak onto the track today, past all the closed gates. Thats the bottom half of the Corkscrew right behind the bike.
Taylor57
Well-Known Member
What track?
m@Robertson
Merciless (on the inside)
- Region
- USA
Laguna Seca. You can see 'Corkscrew' up on the hillside. If I hadn't heard voices while I was finishing my sandwich I probably would have at the very least parked on the front straight for a photo op. I really REALLY wanted to go for a lap. I mean... how many times can you sneak into a venue like this and its totally deserted and you have track access? I have driven hundreds of laps @ Laguna and would have loved a shot down the Corkscrew on a bike.
m@Robertson
Merciless (on the inside)
- Region
- USA
That 80 mph thing is for real. I have driven the 'roval' at Auto Club Speedway, which includes about 2/3 of the NASCAR oval. The embankments are terrifying at first and a very different driving experience. A little like just driving up when you are in the corners. You can't really climb up them on foot when doing a track walk.
Taylor57
Well-Known Member
Shoulda gone for it. Whats the worst thing that could have happened? 1 night in jail? Big deal. We aint gettin any younger!!
WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca - Wikipedia
linklemming
Well-Known Member
I decided to try some actual data on two identical 52V 30A bikes (except for tires and motor).
Bike#1 - GMAC10T(hub drive) with phaserunner and CA3
Bike#2 - BBSHD(mid drive) with hotrod settings from Luna
Throttle only test, same battery was used for this test (52V 17AH). Note that the battery was not recharged for each run so later runs will have lower voltage and theoretically be slower
I marked out a 160ft section in front of my house
No shifting was done for this test. I will assume 1 second time needed for BBSHD shifting, real world experience is more like 2 seconds.
I used GPS race timer android app
Here is the gearing
The runs were done in the order shown
BBSHD 34t
0-10 1.6s
0-20 NA
Conclusion - very fast off the line but runs out of steam almost instantly. Totally useless in real life without shifting (cadence of 90 at 9.69mph)
unless you just want to ride it like a scooter (no pedaling)
BBSHD 23t
0-10 1.8s
0-20 NA
Conclusion - still very fast off the line but still runs out of steam too soon. Somewhat useful in real life without shifting (cadence of 90 at 14.3mph)
BBSHD 20t
0-10 2.6s
0-20 NA
Conclusion - this is the lowest gear I usually use start from a stop (while pedaling). Good compromise of acceleration without shifting (cadence of 90 at 16.41mph)
BBSHD 17t
0-10 3.1s
0-20 NA
Conclusion - motor starting to bog down, best to feather throttle (although not done for this test). Good compromise of acceleration without shifting (cadence of 90 at 19.3mph) which is why
I use this most often starting from a stop (while pedaling).
GMAC10T
0-10 2.1s
0-20 4.7s
Conclusion - Initially Slow off the line, the acceleration increases quickly like a turbo. The word Zippy comes to mind.
Overall conclusion which I and others have stated on this thread
BBSHD - definately fastest at low speeds if you are in the lowest gears and dont want to shift and 0-10 is your only priority. Runs out of steam quickly and pretty useless for anyone who likes to pedal in the gears where the BBSHD is faster. When shifting time is taken into account it looses quickly.
GMAC10T - definately bogs off the line but once it gets going...its gone. Just like my turbo gasoline cars. Shift whenever you want with 0 delay
I ride and enjoy them both alternating each day on the same trails for about 12k miles now combined.
Some other real world notes:
As mentioned by m@Robertson, its best to shift down 2 gears on the BBSHD if you want to the throttle to have any real effect while pedaling normally. Problem is your now at a higher cadence which can be too high for most people.
Top speed with any real load favors the GMAC as you can add as much human power in whatever gear/cadence you want. With the BBSHD, its a compromise of bogging down the motor in highest gear in order to be at a good cadence or just go to throttle and shift down two gears.
FWIW, I initially started with a GMAC then built a BBSHD. At one point I decided BBSHD was the best solution and had two BBSHD bikes. I came across several scenarios (tight curvy courses) where the GMAC would just be faster because you wouldnt have to constantly shift for all the turns to get the best power out of the BBSHD.
The difference is almost the same as my highly modified Jetta TDI (turbo diesel) vs my turbo miata track toy. The Jetta had around 300ft-lbs of torque down low and was a monster off the line.....until you had to shift which came up soon due to the low redline. Due to the heavy flywheel, you had to take you time shifting at which point you lost. The miata started out slower but once it go going...it was gone (270rwhp)
Bike#1 - GMAC10T(hub drive) with phaserunner and CA3
Bike#2 - BBSHD(mid drive) with hotrod settings from Luna
Throttle only test, same battery was used for this test (52V 17AH). Note that the battery was not recharged for each run so later runs will have lower voltage and theoretically be slower
I marked out a 160ft section in front of my house
No shifting was done for this test. I will assume 1 second time needed for BBSHD shifting, real world experience is more like 2 seconds.
I used GPS race timer android app
Here is the gearing
The runs were done in the order shown
BBSHD 34t
0-10 1.6s
0-20 NA
Conclusion - very fast off the line but runs out of steam almost instantly. Totally useless in real life without shifting (cadence of 90 at 9.69mph)
unless you just want to ride it like a scooter (no pedaling)
BBSHD 23t
0-10 1.8s
0-20 NA
Conclusion - still very fast off the line but still runs out of steam too soon. Somewhat useful in real life without shifting (cadence of 90 at 14.3mph)
BBSHD 20t
0-10 2.6s
0-20 NA
Conclusion - this is the lowest gear I usually use start from a stop (while pedaling). Good compromise of acceleration without shifting (cadence of 90 at 16.41mph)
BBSHD 17t
0-10 3.1s
0-20 NA
Conclusion - motor starting to bog down, best to feather throttle (although not done for this test). Good compromise of acceleration without shifting (cadence of 90 at 19.3mph) which is why
I use this most often starting from a stop (while pedaling).
GMAC10T
0-10 2.1s
0-20 4.7s
Conclusion - Initially Slow off the line, the acceleration increases quickly like a turbo. The word Zippy comes to mind.
Overall conclusion which I and others have stated on this thread
BBSHD - definately fastest at low speeds if you are in the lowest gears and dont want to shift and 0-10 is your only priority. Runs out of steam quickly and pretty useless for anyone who likes to pedal in the gears where the BBSHD is faster. When shifting time is taken into account it looses quickly.
GMAC10T - definately bogs off the line but once it gets going...its gone. Just like my turbo gasoline cars. Shift whenever you want with 0 delay
I ride and enjoy them both alternating each day on the same trails for about 12k miles now combined.
Some other real world notes:
As mentioned by m@Robertson, its best to shift down 2 gears on the BBSHD if you want to the throttle to have any real effect while pedaling normally. Problem is your now at a higher cadence which can be too high for most people.
Top speed with any real load favors the GMAC as you can add as much human power in whatever gear/cadence you want. With the BBSHD, its a compromise of bogging down the motor in highest gear in order to be at a good cadence or just go to throttle and shift down two gears.
FWIW, I initially started with a GMAC then built a BBSHD. At one point I decided BBSHD was the best solution and had two BBSHD bikes. I came across several scenarios (tight curvy courses) where the GMAC would just be faster because you wouldnt have to constantly shift for all the turns to get the best power out of the BBSHD.
The difference is almost the same as my highly modified Jetta TDI (turbo diesel) vs my turbo miata track toy. The Jetta had around 300ft-lbs of torque down low and was a monster off the line.....until you had to shift which came up soon due to the low redline. Due to the heavy flywheel, you had to take you time shifting at which point you lost. The miata started out slower but once it go going...it was gone (270rwhp)
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SC00CHB00CH
Active Member
- Region
- USA
I can shift super fast. I didn't have a gear shift sensor which cut power to the motor. I took this to a bike shop which had all sorts of bike varieties , hubs , bosch mids , front hubs , normal bikes , custom this and that and the other. All the kids there said "wow this little thing is fast"
With a mid drive wouldn't you need a front chain-ring the size of a metal trash can lid to not have the ghost pedal effect at top speeds?
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linklemming
Well-Known Member
I also do not not use a shift sensor, no need as I know how to shift. That being said, I dont shift under load and 1 second seems reasonable especially considering the fact that you most likely are changing more than 1 gear at a time as you zippety zip. Im guessing due to my lifelong cycling experience(including racing), I shift better and faster than you.
Do you shift at full power (58.8 x 25A = 1470W)? Most likely you do not.
FWIW, my results were for a BBSHD at 30A. Your BBS02 is 25a
SC00CHB00CH
Active Member
- Region
- USA
No I cut the throttle just a second right before I shift. Sort of like a reverse clutch. I get to top speed in each gear then shift. Kind of like a car where you hit redline then shift , I don't skip gears. I concur you are a legend of cycling. I wasn't born in 1969 and raced bikes all my life.
Djangodog
Well-Known Member
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- USA
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- Claremont, NH
I find it, I’ll say, “interesting” that people that are ebike “enthusiasts” try so hard to make their ebikes so un-bikelike. I understand that a cargo bike weighs more and requires more power, but commuter or recreational ebikes that are not street legal because of wattage or speed or that weigh so much that a lift or hoist is required to work on them, these things make little sense to me.
With my mid drive with a measly 250 watts, (500 peak), left in mid gear, 46:21, I can go from 0-20 mph in approximately 3 seconds and 0-10 mpg in a little more than 1 second, with or without assistance. That’s zippy enough for me and I can get about 70 miles from my 500 wh battery. I recently rode 63 miles with over 4,000 feet of climbing and finished with 10% left in the tank.
Maybe the desire is to have an electric moped that flies under the radar. Once you exceed the specifications that define an ebike, it is no longer an ebike. If zippy isn’t the result of the rider’s input, then bragging seems misplaced.
With my mid drive with a measly 250 watts, (500 peak), left in mid gear, 46:21, I can go from 0-20 mph in approximately 3 seconds and 0-10 mpg in a little more than 1 second, with or without assistance. That’s zippy enough for me and I can get about 70 miles from my 500 wh battery. I recently rode 63 miles with over 4,000 feet of climbing and finished with 10% left in the tank.
Maybe the desire is to have an electric moped that flies under the radar. Once you exceed the specifications that define an ebike, it is no longer an ebike. If zippy isn’t the result of the rider’s input, then bragging seems misplaced.
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m@Robertson
Merciless (on the inside)
- Region
- USA
@linklemming nailed it. You either shift or you top out at a slow speed on a mid which renders it slower, unless your actual goal is a race from 0-10 mph in which case then sure the mid drive wins that one. Factor in a shift - I don't care how fast it is - and you interrupt the power curve and set yourself behind the 8 ball versus a bike that has an uninterrupted power/speed curve with a regular upward slope.
didn't I already say this like 100 posts back?
On @SC00CHB00CH's little folder, those 20" tires will give a torque advantage, reach peak speed at a lower level and help pop the wheel up, but the big 52T front cog will tamp everything down and increase the top speed.
On my twin hub bike, I have two 80 Nm motors, two 35a controllers, two displays I can turn off the slow-start setting on and one big 30ah 14S9P 52v battery with a 90a continuous BMS rating. If I nail both of those throttles without the slow-start on, I will leave a 2-ft power skid with the front wheel and chirp the back wheel. Take-off is fast enough to make you giggle and the way to stop that front wheel spin is to do a 1-count after you hit the rear throttle to join it with the front. No shifting up to 30-34 mph. No 52v/30a BBSHD can touch that. And you know what? A bike with a BBSHD plus another one of those front motors on can't touch it either. I have one of those too.
didn't I already say this like 100 posts back?
On @SC00CHB00CH's little folder, those 20" tires will give a torque advantage, reach peak speed at a lower level and help pop the wheel up, but the big 52T front cog will tamp everything down and increase the top speed.
On my twin hub bike, I have two 80 Nm motors, two 35a controllers, two displays I can turn off the slow-start setting on and one big 30ah 14S9P 52v battery with a 90a continuous BMS rating. If I nail both of those throttles without the slow-start on, I will leave a 2-ft power skid with the front wheel and chirp the back wheel. Take-off is fast enough to make you giggle and the way to stop that front wheel spin is to do a 1-count after you hit the rear throttle to join it with the front. No shifting up to 30-34 mph. No 52v/30a BBSHD can touch that. And you know what? A bike with a BBSHD plus another one of those front motors on can't touch it either. I have one of those too.
- The fat twin hub rules on flat pavement and muddy construction sites. The only thing faster is a big badass but not too-big hub like a QS 203 with say 72v. In fact I've seen a bike with two of those, too. I can't even guess as to how fast it would take off.
- The fat dual mid+hub rules on hills and really, really awful terrain (like miles of riptide-slanted deep, coarse sand)
- The mid alone is the Swiss army knife. It does well on almost anything but is best wherever its steep.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Amen...
I would add another as well. The bigger the elec. motor, the less picky it's going to be about being in the right gear for max acceleration -OR- it's need to be shifted as quickly.
Point being, with the smaller 500w motors I used in my tests, and the need for the 500w mid to be shifted almost immediately (as compared to the geared hub), will be much more apparent.
"Zippy"
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SC00CHB00CH
Active Member
- Region
- USA
I concur that hub drives do appear to be more naturally zippy. But with so many variables at play the answer could go either way. Bike weight , wattage , rider skill , controllers , gearing , etc.
I've learned a lot from the forum and have started to look at hub drives in a more positive light. I'm looking at getting one of the geared hubs for the hummingbird. The 250/500 watts stock version doesn't excite me. The simplicity of a rear hub has me excited again. I don't have to worry so much about cassette slippage under torque which took me forever to get the slippage under torque using the 11th tooth rear on a flat road at top speed it would skip. But when I sold it it was dialed in perfect no gears slipped under torque , even under load , lets say pulling up hill in the wrong gear (say 11) it still didn't slip which was kind of a small miracle.
I had to use a Lekkie BBSHD chainring on a BBS02 motor , had to core out the middle and add new holes on the ring. The offset wasn't enough on the BBS02 version of the same 52T chainring. I also used 4 spacers behind the chainring to really bring the chain in line mostly with the 11th tooth which was the Achilles heel of the build. I could get by with the 34 tooth being way out of the chain-line it would still grab fine. The 11th tooth cog was the one that slipped on a pure flat road at top speed it would skip skip skip. Finally got it dialed in just right.
Am I stupid? Probably , I've broken a collar bone , had two concussions and broke my tibial plateau riding bikes over the years and doing stupid stuff. I guess I'm a daredevil. I even got hit by a car going 40mph , got up on my bike and proceed to ride to work. The guy was like hey man "your shoulder blade is sticking out of your back you may need an ambulance." I didn't feel it.
When broke my tibial plateau doing a 20 foot jump that hurt like a B. But I made the jump. heh . well , anyways
I'm not the average biker ,probably the 1st one to say "hold my beer" and then break a femur.
But I've mellowed over the years and don't want to break any more bones which is the reason I sold the death rocket on Ebay for way too cheap. There was a close call where I hit a berm on it at good speed and the front wheel got locked into crevice , so I knew what was coming and rolled off the bike safely. I really respect everyone on this forum even the ones that blocked me , I hope you have a good life and enjoy this wonderful world , we only get one chance at it so if I can say thank you then thank you for your knowledge. I am humbled and have learned a lot. Make the best of each day you never know which one is your last so be grateful for your family and the ones you love , even your enemies need a hug. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. I'm 4 beers in so keep that in mind. haha
I've learned a lot from the forum and have started to look at hub drives in a more positive light. I'm looking at getting one of the geared hubs for the hummingbird. The 250/500 watts stock version doesn't excite me. The simplicity of a rear hub has me excited again. I don't have to worry so much about cassette slippage under torque which took me forever to get the slippage under torque using the 11th tooth rear on a flat road at top speed it would skip. But when I sold it it was dialed in perfect no gears slipped under torque , even under load , lets say pulling up hill in the wrong gear (say 11) it still didn't slip which was kind of a small miracle.
I had to use a Lekkie BBSHD chainring on a BBS02 motor , had to core out the middle and add new holes on the ring. The offset wasn't enough on the BBS02 version of the same 52T chainring. I also used 4 spacers behind the chainring to really bring the chain in line mostly with the 11th tooth which was the Achilles heel of the build. I could get by with the 34 tooth being way out of the chain-line it would still grab fine. The 11th tooth cog was the one that slipped on a pure flat road at top speed it would skip skip skip. Finally got it dialed in just right.
Am I stupid? Probably , I've broken a collar bone , had two concussions and broke my tibial plateau riding bikes over the years and doing stupid stuff. I guess I'm a daredevil. I even got hit by a car going 40mph , got up on my bike and proceed to ride to work. The guy was like hey man "your shoulder blade is sticking out of your back you may need an ambulance." I didn't feel it.
When broke my tibial plateau doing a 20 foot jump that hurt like a B. But I made the jump. heh . well , anyways
I'm not the average biker ,probably the 1st one to say "hold my beer" and then break a femur.
But I've mellowed over the years and don't want to break any more bones which is the reason I sold the death rocket on Ebay for way too cheap. There was a close call where I hit a berm on it at good speed and the front wheel got locked into crevice , so I knew what was coming and rolled off the bike safely. I really respect everyone on this forum even the ones that blocked me , I hope you have a good life and enjoy this wonderful world , we only get one chance at it so if I can say thank you then thank you for your knowledge. I am humbled and have learned a lot. Make the best of each day you never know which one is your last so be grateful for your family and the ones you love , even your enemies need a hug. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. I'm 4 beers in so keep that in mind. haha
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