My Thoughts on Mid Drive..Hub Drive and Throttle

[AHicks]

I think the one thing hub drives will never have is the gear multiplier. I think, generally speaking, they're quite good for most any application. But one place that a mid drive will always win is that huge incline where you're in your granny gears, they're just too much of a force multiplier on a good bike.

Unless I'm loosing my mind here, the geared rear hubs I'm familiar with all start with a 5:1 planetary gear set.

That may not match up with what's available in the way of a granny gear on a mid drive, but then again, not everyone with a mid drive will ever even have cause to use a granny gear....

Which might work out better for a person's application will likely have to do with how fast you normally travel, and if you do happen to have a really steep hill you need to climb regularly. Even then, comparing 250-350w mid drive performance to performance available using a 750-1000w geared hub, may surprise some.

My point is, making blanket statements like "one thing hub drives will never have is the gear multiplier. I think, generally speaking, they're quite good for most any application. But one place that a mid drive will always win is that huge incline where you're in your granny gears" or any comment stating one drive type is "better" than another, are not always true.

Consider there are 3 drive types are available, all popular for different applications, with good reason for going with each. To my knowledge, there is no "best" drive type. The better plan is to sit down and study each drive type, then pick one that seems like it will get the job done for you. Or buy multiple bikes for different missions as some have done.

 

[AHicks]

Supporting Amazon is supporting the destruction of the community in which you live. They make no donations to local events, local teams or local charities. They are destroying the retail sector in communities across the world. I would rather pay a bit more, wait a few more days and support my neighbors than give my trade to a hungry giant that is eating our society alive all for what? The convenience of one click?

I suppose that's what makes the world go round - different strokes. No apologies coming from this corner. Not when it comes to our LBS anyway. That's not to say I don't patronize other local small businesses. So I wouldn't jump to too many conclusions.... save your speech for somebody else.

For instance, if there were a LBS that gave a dam about my business, my buying habits might change.....

 

[Alaskan]

I suppose that's what makes the world go round - different strokes. No apologies coming from this corner. Not when it comes to our LBS anyway. That's not to say I don't patronize other local small businesses. So I wouldn't jump to too many conclusions.... save your speech for somebody else.

For instance, if there were a LBS that gave a dam about my business, my buying habits might change.....

Got it. I guess we are lucky in Bellingham, Washington. We have several local bike shops that are super helpful, are happy to do drop in repairs and charge reasonable amounts. We even have a Bosch authorized shop called Earle's that will pick up your bike at home, take it to the shop for repair and deliver it back home for you with no extra charge for pick up and delivery.

I had to go out of town to buy my bikes as no one carries Riese & Muller bikes around here. The local Trek and Specialized shops are withing two miles of where I live and staffed by really friendly mechanics and sales people so I want to do my part in keeping them around.

 

[FlatSix911]

Hilarious myth disproved by mathematics. Count the smallest front and largest rear sprocket. Divide front by rear. That is speed multiplication. Reciprocal is torque division. From the pictures I see very few 32 by 32 out there on mid drive bikes. 42:28 might be probable, which decreases torque by .66.
There is torque multiplication from the small sprocket on the mid drive motor to the big one that drives the crank. After the crank torque is decreased or at best, even.

Be careful making assumptions... My Shimano mid-drive has a 34 front ring and 46 rear and it is a climbing monster.

 

[Feliz]

I think everything ebikemom said in her post was in jest. My LBS sells both hub and mid drives. I asked him about this when I was bike shopping. He said he sees little difference in maintenance between the two drive types.

@Feliz , I had a 1969 BSA Lightning almost exactly like the one in your avatar picture. Is the bike yours and do you still own it?

Mine was a 66 and I totally restored it, it was better than showroom and a show winner. I rode it regularly until I turned 80 when I sold all my vintage bikes. It's sitting in some rich guys living room window now, what a shame bikes are meant to be ridden. A guy bought my 71 Norton Commando and did the same thing, it's looking out of his living room window at the ocean, I miss my motorcycles but my toys now are eBikes.

 

[Over50]

Supporting Amazon is supporting the destruction of the community in which you live. They make no donations to local events, local teams or local charities. They are destroying the retail sector in communities across the world. I would rather pay a bit more, wait a few more days and support my neighbors than give my trade to a hungry giant that is eating our society alive all for what? The convenience of one click?

I guess theory would say that with the money we are saving by using Amazon we can support other sectors whether services or direct charitable giving. As for bike shops, my locals carry little in the way of gear for example. And I'm not about to go driving or calling over town looking for a particular item. The main reason I keep as much business as possible at my LBS is because of their service department inclusive of the service plans they sell. For gear, a number of times, they have told me to buy a particular item elsewhere (whether a lock or a light etc) because they said they just couldn't get it from one of their distributors.

As for normal day-to-day shopping, there are many things I won't likely find locally or the cost of searching, in time, effort, gas is just more than I can stand. And as far as local retail, it is dominated by Wal-Mart, Target, Kohls, Meijer, Kroger and the like. I don't necessarily consider those chains mom and pop local businesses. About the only way the local Target store gets my business over Amazon, if it happens to be a nice day and I can ride my cargo bike over there. We also shop WFM a couple of times a month. We're happy to use Amazon Prime for that and have the WFM delivered on days where the weather or time doesn't permit a bike ride to the store. And the shopper/driver minimum tip is $5. I just don't see Amazon as all bad particularly if it saves me money and time that can be spent on other things or gives me access to goods that I can't easily get locally (ie within a short distance from home).

 

[6zfshdb]

Mine was a 66 and I totally restored it, it was better than showroom and a show winner. I rode it regularly until I turned 80 when I sold all my vintage bikes. It's sitting in some rich guys living room window now, what a shame bikes are meant to be ridden. A guy bought my 71 Norton Commando and did the same thing, it's looking out of his living room window at the ocean, I miss my motorcycles but my toys now are eBikes.

I bought mine new in 69 and kept it in mint condition until I sold it in 2003 when I too gave up riding. Prior to that, I had several Ducati's, one of which I rode in competitive scrambles track.

Coincidentally, the buyer of the BSA was a collector in Washington DC. It took 6 of us to get the bike upstairs and into his living room. He had BSA parts hanging on all the walls. He even had the frame of a 70 Firebird Scrambler as the base of a coffee table! I never understood why someone would take a fine roadworthy machine and display it permanently indoors. I never heard of this before but I guess its not uncommon based on your experiences.

 

[Feliz]

Hey, nice bikes! I always rode all my motorcycles and now ride all of my eight eBikes even though most of them I keep for family and friends when they visit. I had a Ducati GT1000 it was an awesome bike. All I can do now is look at pictures and dream. That's a funny but sad story about the fellow who purchased your BSA, bikes shouldn't be on display as trophies. The guy who bought mine saw a picture on the internet and pestered me for years wanting to buy it, he sold his furniture company for 35 million so he had lots of money, he finally made me an offer I couldn't refuse, that was about a year ago. I raced but in the vintage class so I wasn't a hot shot more of a wanna be. Oh, this is an ebike forum, sorry I forgot, senile I guess

 

[tomjasz]

Supporting Amazon is supporting the destruction of the community in which you live. They make no donations to local events, local teams or local charities. They are destroying the retail sector in communities across the world. I would rather pay a bit more, wait a few more days and support my neighbors than give my trade to a hungry giant that is eating our society alive all for what? The convenience of one click?

And if your community offers no alternatives? Walmart? Or that farm store with all the AR-15’s? Decades of doing my best to be local has brought zero improvemnt to the market. Tell the mom making minimum wage that she has to shop we’re the prices are 5-20% higher. Our successes can easilt blind us to the realities of other lives. We may ride a bike that cost more than a vehicle transporting a family of 5, and they have to make payments.

I do share the frustration. The Amazon effect. I get calls every week looking for an update on the order, “I just made it...”, at 2AM, and where’s the tracking. Not sure if the genie ever goes back n the lamp.

i ordered two rubber grommets for my new charging box. $3.21 delivered Wednesday. My option? $2.49 with a $9.95 shipping charge, maybe a week. Or. Drive 50 miles round trip to another big box thief in a bigger city. wear and tear and fuel costs easily make them $12 each.

I wish it were easy, but I cannot point fingers.

 

[tomjasz]

Unless I'm loosing my mind here, the geared rear hubs I'm familiar with all start with a 5:1 planetary gear set.

mment stating one drive type is "better" than another, are not always true.

Consider there are 3 drive types are available, all popular for different applications, with good reason for going with each. To my knowledge, there is no "best" drive type. The better plan is to sit down and study each drive type, then pick one that seems like it will get the job done for you. Or buy multiple bikes for different missions as some have done.

These goofy threads are just to frequent. Apparently we need to hold our choice in bike or motor up as it were a religious experience and my experience is with a greater deity than yours.

FFS.

It’s a simple click away and the Grin motor simulator will reveal exactly what a motor is capable of, but I guess it’s kinda like staying on topic. We can’t manage reading the OP or relevant comments and just bark out some advice ”overheard” in some forum.

The choice in my experience should be made on the back of the road data where I ride. My GD 24V 250w $79 Aikema hub drive is enough motor for any public riding/walking/running flat park path.

 

[TForan]

Mine was a 66 and I totally restored it, it was better than showroom and a show winner. I rode it regularly until I turned 80 when I sold all my vintage bikes. It's sitting in some rich guys living room window now, what a shame bikes are meant to be ridden. A guy bought my 71 Norton Commando and did the same thing, it's looking out of his living room window at the ocean, I miss my motorcycles but my toys now are eBikes.

I had a couple of Commandos. Here's my last one. A Colorado Norton Works.

 

[Feliz]

Wow! That's nice, I always lusted after one of those, is he still putting them out? My Norton was a nice looker but not so nice of a bike, I sold it when I got tired of standing on the side of the road trying to kick start it.

 

[indianajo]

Be careful making assumptions... My Shimano mid-drive has a 34 front ring and 46 rear and it is a climbing monster.

Based on the specs Court puts in his reviews, I estimate the proportion of rear sprockets 46 & larger on e-bikes to be 1:100000. On the page today there were many 28's, a couple of 32's and a 36. One $5900 Bulls copperhead MTB had a 52 tooth rear sprocket. So does HonoraryOrange have a top end MTB that multiplies torque with 46:52 or whatever?

 

[TForan]

Wow! That's nice, I always lusted after one of those, is he still putting them out? My Norton was a nice looker but not so nice of a bike, I sold it when I got tired of standing on the side of the road trying to kick start it.

Yes, I think he still is. I bought it used for a good price. I bought a new one in 72 for $1300 OTD. A beautiful bike but a little small for me.

 

[steve mercier]

Alaskan,
I can so relate to your experience with pedal replacement. Some years ago on a new nonpowered bike, I switch the pedals and inadvertently cross treaded one pedal. Of course it was the odd reverse-threaded left pedal and within 5 miles it loosened and fell off. Had to call hubby for a ride. Fortunately only the first turn or two on the crank was destroyed, otherwise I would have had to replace crank (and maybe axel??)
Now I'm fairly paranoid of repeating the experience so I simply bring whatever bike into my lbs and they switch out pedals for free. Have a great relationship with them but I think in secret they chuckle at me.

I am sure they are happy to have you as a customer and likely have many many less mechanically inclined than you.

 

[Toomanycats]

NOTE: Everything written below is in jest!

You can support bike techs with all you pay in maintenance if you are a high-mileage, high-speed rider of a mid-drive bike! My local bike tech definitely is feeling that love! Whenever I am there and he has a mid-drive on the rack he tells me that the bike's owner has spent lots of $$ on maintenance. Meanwhile, for me he does ... tires and lots of freebie adjustments.

You could get a T-shirt:

"Support your local bike tech... buy a mid-drive ebike!", cutely illustrated with a mid-drive bike up on a repair rack.

Maybe so- but I love my mid drive, and would never replace it for a hub drive. And yes, I do a LOT of preventative maintenance. I am an older woman who rides alone often, so I have Velofix on speed dial.
But actually the maintenance has had nothing to do with the motor. New chain, new tires, new tubes, and frequent tuneups. 2500 miles ridden in less than a year.
But there are lots of hills where I live, and I love the responsive, interactive mid drive experience. I could swear that my Bosch motor has “learned” exactly how I pedal, and responds with exactly the right amount of power.
I rode a hub drive, and it just wasn’t the same. That’s not to say that there’s anything the matter with hub drives. Riding a mid drive is just worth it to me..

 

[steve mercier]

Maybe so- but I love my mid drive, and would never replace it for a hub drive. And yes, I do a LOT of preventative maintenance. I am an older woman who rides alone often, so I have Velofix on speed dial.
But actually the maintenance has had nothing to do with the motor. New chain, new tires, new tubes, and frequent tuneups. 2500 miles ridden in less than a year.
But there are lots of hills where I live, and I love the responsive, interactive mid drive experience. I could swear that my Bosch motor has “learned” exactly how I pedal, and responds with exactly the right amount of power.
I rode a hub drive, and it just wasn’t the same. That’s not to say that there’s anything the matter with hub drives. Riding a mid drive is just worth it to me..

Tannus Armour inserts will boost your flat protection.

 

[steve mercier]

Regarding Mid vs Hub drives, I had a hub drive that could climb anything and much faster than my mid drive . But it was just a powerful piece of junk that lasted 6,000 km before I stripped it. I sometimes think that I will use that motor again if I can bother to get it set up in my old Norco Charger 29" Acoustic bike. It has way more power than my Bosch CX but I like the natural pedal feel and excersize I get on the Bosch. Anyways I think there is a place for both types ( if I can build a rear wheel which does not repeatedly break spokes), and I can imagine a time when I am too old to pedal much but still can keep my balance and will need a throttle.

 

[TForan]

I think the need for maintenance on mid drives is a bit over done on this forum. I'm no mechanic but most things just aren't that hard. I'm totally happy with mine and I don't say that about too many things I buy.

 

[indianajo]

I had a hub drive that could climb anything and much faster than my mid drive . But it was just a powerful piece of junk that lasted 6,000 km before I stripped it. I sometimes think that I will use that motor again if I can bother to get it set up in my old Norco Charger 29" Acoustic bike. It has way more power than my Bosch CX but I like the natural pedal feel and excersize I get on the Bosch.

I mostly ride without power, so the bike left with 12 lb hub+battery feels just like the 75 lb steel bike I had before I bought an aluminum frame. But if the wind is in my face, I've already had 3 hours of pulse >140 , I'm too hot and there are 10 more miles of this, I turn on the motor & let it drag me home. I'm on the couch quicker than calling a taxi.