Juggernaut FS Ultra vs Frey EX

Hey Roshan, I still might be interested in the ultra fs PRO model but I wanted to know if I would be able to buy a second battery and a rear fender of some sort to store it on? And would the rear shock be ok with that weight on it? I wouldn't be doing jumps.
Since Roshan didnt see this I will chime in....There are definitely options to store a 2nd battery on a rack and jumping with the 2nd battery strapped down securely is not an issue.

The Wren fork is something I would pass on... I am the only one that has had is separate at the drop out but its very concerning to me. Kevin and Russ at Wren immediately took care of me and sent me a new Stanchion tube/drop out combo but this fork is not meant for freeriding. If you have seen my videos you will know why it died, I dont video my jumping but it has seen 4-6ft drops with roll out.

I have a Mastodon on the way and the IRT valve. I have another fork coming from overseas to test out....Top Secret.

I would like to add that a 2nd battery could be easily added to this system with available hardware from Biktrix. Perhaps they will have an extended pro option or you can just buy the Dualizer and the battery with mount and mount it to the water bottle bosses like the other company has done. If you have followed or subscribed to my Youtube channel you can see what I have done to get another inch of suspension travel. Next couple of videos should be really good just waiting on parts to arrive, any day now.
 
The tuning on the ultra motor is better on the Biktrix than the Frey from customers that upgraded the Frey to the X1 they said a huge difference.
Roshan has tested the X1 one on his Ebikes with not a huge difference, I don't know what special secret sauce Roshan programs with; but clearly it is working very well.
Plus support in North America.
 
All of the programming settings you find online are little more than a guide, they don't suit anyone in particular. Which is why you see so many complaints.

Its also why Specialized has brought out "Infinite tuning", to address user complaints of the same nature. Unfortunately this isn't available for the Bafang.

I have to say, the Frey bike is fine (i own one), it seems to get a bad rep on here about its controller that's not wholly justified, its a quality bike and rides fantastic, and Frey have been great when it comes to support.
 
All of the programming settings you find online are little more than a guide, they don't suit anyone in particular. Which is why you see so many complaints.

Its also why Specialized has brought out "Infinite tuning", to address user complaints of the same nature. Unfortunately this isn't available for the Bafang.

I have to say, the Frey bike is fine (i own one), it seems to get a bad rep on here about its controller that's not wholly justified, its a quality bike and rides fantastic, and Frey have been great when it comes to support.
I think the Frey CC is a great Ebike for sure, it's in my top six Ebikes for consideration on my next buy.
I just think they don't do anything with the Ultra, whatever is stock from Bafang goes on the machine with no tinkering at all, other companies have found ways to improve the ultra once it gets to them.
Luna, Biktrix, Watt Wagons and so on. We also know those improvements are worth having for those that have had both and compared them.
 
I watched the Watt Wagons video on their controller differences compared to stock and it looks like it has very good improvements. One I really like is that the motor still gets a little bit of current when pas is set to 0 to reduce drag. So it doesn't really give you assistance but prevents the "reverse emf" I think he called it.

I'm still a little anxious about the Hydra battery since I would have preferred 21ah but it should be enough since its more efficient with the x1 controller and the lighter bike.
 
I think the Frey CC is a great Ebike for sure, it's in my top six Ebikes for consideration on my next buy.
I just think they don't do anything with the Ultra, whatever is stock from Bafang goes on the machine with no tinkering at all, other companies have found ways to improve the ultra once it gets to them.
Luna, Biktrix, Watt Wagons and so on. We also know those improvements are worth having for those that have had both and compared them.

The Stock settings aren't that bad.... I do wonder how this impression has been created that it falls far behind the others...

I've compared many of the settings available, like from Luna, Biktrix etc... and sure you might think they're better depending on your particular use-case... But the differences aren't huge. Honestly its hard to tell the difference between most of them. There is only so much these settings do...

I feel people are expecting a bit too much from the "programming" possibilities of this motor.
 
I watched the Watt Wagons video on their controller differences compared to stock and it looks like it has very good improvements. One I really like is that the motor still gets a little bit of current when pas is set to 0 to reduce drag. So it doesn't really give you assistance but prevents the "reverse emf" I think he called it.

I'm still a little anxious about the battery since I would have preferred 21ah but it should be enough since its more efficient with the x1 controller and the lighter bike.
It's a good point, it's one thing to have no power just to get more exercise but you are already on a extra heavy bike, for there to be added drag on top of that is just too much.
 
The Stock settings aren't that bad.... I do wonder how this impression has been created that it falls far behind the others...

I've compared many of the settings available, like from Luna, Biktrix etc... and sure you might think they're better depending on your particular use-case... But the differences aren't huge. Honestly its hard to tell the difference between most of them. There is only so much these settings do...

I feel people are expecting a bit too much from the "programming" possibilities of this motor.
Well I leave to those that own this and have done it to further explain it to you, my information is second hand.
 
Well I leave to those that own this and have done it to further explain it to you, my information is second hand.
I don't need it explaining to me. I do own the bike and have done it..

If you want to believe in the secret sauce programming then go ahead but trust me it tastes a lot like Heinz ketchup.
 
I agree with MartsEbike to a point. The big difference with the Archon X1 controller is in efficiency. There's a little more smoothness with the X1 but it's not night and day difference. Efficieny wise it IS night and day.
 
I agree with MartsEbike to a point. The big difference with the Archon X1 controller is in efficiency. There's a little more smoothness with the X1 but it's not night and day difference. Efficieny wise it IS night and day.
Maybe a bit mistaken, I'm comparing the differences in programming of the stock controller. The belief is that certain brands have better settings/programming than Frey. But my point is the differences are still only minor no matter which you choose.

The X1 Controller is an improvement! I hope to get it myself later this year but I'm not expecting miracles... If its a bit more efficient and smoother I'll be happy. :)
 
Is the rear suspension on the Ultra FS Pro a DNM air suspension? The pictures on the website does not show an air module like the pics posted here do.
 
Looks like a nice upgrade from the 2020 FS. I like the new battery design and the coil shock. Are the specs right that the boost hub leads to a 10 lb weight savings over the fat setup? That's significant.

I absolutely love my 2020 FS (4" tires), it is almost a perfect "jack-of-all-trades" ebike (with some accessories like lights, dropper post, rack, etc.). If there were 2 things that would make it the perfect ebike, it would be about 20 less pounds and a Gates belt/Kindernay/Rohloff setup. And maybe an integrated dropper.
 
Figured I'd chime in on the X1 Archon controller, even if a bit off topic: they kinda suck. Feels gutless and from what I can tell, the efficiency gains they pulled off were by making the Ultra perform more like a Prius than say, a Mustang. I tried two configurations, one was full unlimited power and it still felt less sporty and exciting than stock Biktrix unlimited Ultra.

If secret sauce tunings taste like Heinz ketchup, the X1 kinda tastes like sugar-free organic ketchup. 😂
 
I've ridden a few ebikes (& mopeds, & scooters, & standup scooters, & mobility scooters, & haphazardly motorized contraptions), but nothing with any power to speak of; so take my opinions with a giant cubical crystalline grain of salt:

My expectation would be that each ebike brand gets their controllers with a few settings fixed in place permanently, & what can be done with UART/CAN-bus by the end-user/aftermarket-shops will be a subset of features: For instance, some people with Ultra motors sold through different brands have reported differences in what level of max wattage will be accepted in their controller settings, despite the software theoretically being able to change that setting.

Then there's other differences which can foul a comparison: The power settings for each (percentile!) speed range will work best when tuned for each very specific drivetrain & tire combo. Even if gears & chainline are all equal, the Juggernaut Ultra FS Pro runs [email protected] or 52V@16Ah, while the EX runs 48V@14Ah or 48V@28Ah; so on top of (hopefully minor) voltage differences under load, & accordant range differences at any given programming, each of those packs also has a different weight. Plus, rider weight & limb dimensions alone result in wildly different ideal tunings for different people. Then too, the torque sensor assembly itself can make a huge difference in performance and feel, & I've gotten the impression that an ebike with a Bafang Ultra may come with a different torque sensor depending on which ebike brand one buys from.

The only reliable comparisons to be had are like-to-like: Same equipment, same rider, two tunings. Try the same two tunings with a different rider or components & the results may flip to a different winner.

In particular, without prior experiments having shown so, we couldn't reasonably take programming that worked great on a Frey AM1000, & expect that tuning to improve a Juggernaut FS, or vice versa. We might get lucky in some cases where one brand set lower limits than another, but the only good bet is for each ebike to come tuned for that ebike as equipped, & then have local shops or owners tweak each controller for its rider's weight, & control preference.

Unfortunately, I'm not yet clear on what's programmable so far on a CAN-bus Bafang Ultra from Frey if that's indeed what they're shipping (someone recently received a UART model?)... nor do I have yet an AM1000, programming cable, & app (hopefully all arriving this fall!), to compare for myself! Frey sold me a programming cable with promise to provide additional data upon arrival (???) so hopefully it's not completely locked out (ostensibly, I can still do much more than just choose between two or three firmware setups). The question of how programmable they are will go a long way toward determining whether I sign off on purchasing other Bafang-based bikes, going forward.

I am filled with anticipation and trying to reign in my expectations. In fact, I plan to avoid modifying the programming at all until we've concluded some fleet evaluations & are well outside of any question of "warranty". With several distinctly different use-cases in mind, we may actually desire several different tunings, on several almost identical Frey bikes!

... Hopefully everyone at Frey enjoys great success and I get to ride my first ebike of my very own, before any big snows come!
 
I've ridden a few ebikes (& mopeds, & scooters, & standup scooters, & mobility scooters, & haphazardly motorized contraptions), but nothing with any power to speak of; so take my opinions with a giant cubical crystalline grain of salt:

My expectation would be that each ebike brand gets their controllers with a few settings fixed in place permanently, & what can be done with UART/CAN-bus by the end-user/aftermarket-shops will be a subset of features: For instance, some people with Ultra motors sold through different brands have reported differences in what level of max wattage will be accepted in their controller settings, despite the software theoretically being able to change that setting.

Then there's other differences which can foul a comparison: The power settings for each (percentile!) speed range will work best when tuned for each very specific drivetrain & tire combo. Even if gears & chainline are all equal, the Juggernaut Ultra FS Pro runs [email protected] or 52V@16Ah, while the EX runs 48V@14Ah or 48V@28Ah; so on top of (hopefully minor) voltage differences under load, & accordant range differences at any given programming, each of those packs also has a different weight. Plus, rider weight & limb dimensions alone result in wildly different ideal tunings for different people. Then too, the torque sensor assembly itself can make a huge difference in performance and feel, & I've gotten the impression that an ebike with a Bafang Ultra may come with a different torque sensor depending on which ebike brand one buys from.

The only reliable comparisons to be had are like-to-like: Same equipment, same rider, two tunings. Try the same two tunings with a different rider or components & the results may flip to a different winner.

In particular, without prior experiments having shown so, we couldn't reasonably take programming that worked great on a Frey AM1000, & expect that tuning to improve a Juggernaut FS, or vice versa. We might get lucky in some cases where one brand set lower limits than another, but the only good bet is for each ebike to come tuned for that ebike as equipped, & then have local shops or owners tweak each controller for its rider's weight, & control preference.

Unfortunately, I'm not yet clear on what's programmable so far on a CAN-bus Bafang Ultra from Frey if that's indeed what they're shipping (someone recently received a UART model?)... nor do I have yet an AM1000, programming cable, & app (hopefully all arriving this fall!), to compare for myself! Frey sold me a programming cable with promise to provide additional data upon arrival (???) so hopefully it's not completely locked out (ostensibly, I can still do much more than just choose between two or three firmware setups). The question of how programmable they are will go a long way toward determining whether I sign off on purchasing other Bafang-based bikes, going forward.

I am filled with anticipation and trying to reign in my expectations. In fact, I plan to avoid modifying the programming at all until we've concluded some fleet evaluations & are well outside of any question of "warranty". With several distinctly different use-cases in mind, we may actually desire several different tunings, on several almost identical Frey bikes!

... Hopefully everyone at Frey enjoys great success and I get to ride my first ebike of my very own, before any big snows come!
Your post peeks my curiosity. Especially your next to last sentence here. Do you own a bike shop? :)
 
Your post peeks my curiosity. Especially your next to last sentence here. Do you own a bike shop? :)
Nope. I am pleased to be surrounded by them, though!
Not so much with transit infrastructure... Hopefully a few decent ebikes can improve upon several of our current transportation and recreation options, around here.

... I wish one of the local shops had felt like ordering a dozen or more Freys around this time last year (even one, to compare?) but the timescales & up-front costs are understandably daunting.

After more than enough time researching, deciding to wait, wait, always waiting to see something that looked good as-equipped or obviously fit (and available!) for easy kitbashing, this year was the first time a long range mid-drive with respectable components on an extra-large bike presented itself within a budget that looked almost reasonable.

In fact no less than half a dozen really good bikes have caught my attention since Q4 2018: It just so happened that when funding presented itself, many either weren't taking orders or cost significantly more to get comparable components to the Frey bike. The AM1000 hit a sweet spot in parts I was looking for at pricing I could almost afford. When practical externalities also converged on "picking out" & purchasing a high watt-hour ebike for as I'd been wanting to do, with the possibility of then ordering more for everybody if it worked out... who was I to say no?
 
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