RunForTheHills
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
Perhaps, but they are mid drive motors and it wasn't clear from the second video if the gearing used for the test is the same on both bikes. It could be comparing apples and oranges.
How to build a quality eMTB using Dengfu frame and Bafang motor
- Thread starter Ravi Kempaiah
- Start date
Even acknowledging the flaws in the comparison, I applaud people recording real world tests.
It reminds me of TFLcar youtube channel testing AWD SUVs against each other on Goldmine Hill or 4x4s against each other on Cliffhanger.
People complain that the vehicles don't have the same tires, and hopefully these complaints are noted with resultant better comparisons.
But I really like real world tests to the point of failure; I am an appreciative audience of this kind of comparison video.
It reminds me of TFLcar youtube channel testing AWD SUVs against each other on Goldmine Hill or 4x4s against each other on Cliffhanger.
People complain that the vehicles don't have the same tires, and hopefully these complaints are noted with resultant better comparisons.
But I really like real world tests to the point of failure; I am an appreciative audience of this kind of comparison video.
Ravi Kempaiah
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- Halifax
Not really. I thought the guy was fairly reasonable.
He documented his entire build process without masking any information and even showed the PayPal process with the Dengfu to get the frame and the cost of 840Whr at $340 USD etc.
So, I give him credit for that.
The warranty and support process between Bosch E-bike Systems and Bafang Corporation are worlds apart.
People with lots of time on their hands (Retirees), folks who like DIY, tinker with mechanical stuff enjoy working on/upgrading/ their motor parameters but most other E-bike commuters don't have time for that.
Bosch is catering to that market that wants a decent powered E-bike that works and backs that up with excellent warranty support.
We have not even considered the engineering details. The UL certification alone costs upwards of $100,000 USD and Bafang has not ponied up to do it.
The pedal-assist/torque sensor system is far superior on the Bosch drive systems. No question about that.
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Finally,
saying, "oh they should compare the ultra motor/ M620 to Bosch Gen 4" is a moot point.
The Ultra motor weighs 3x more, occupies 2x more space, has 1000W of power of nominal power.
Bosch Gen 4 was designed to be light, compact, reliable, and produce 350W of nominal power with occasional bursts up to ~750W
If Bosch were to design a 1000W motor, it would probably blow everything out of the competition.
It is not a US vs. EU debate. I don't think N.Americans need more power. They need more exercise and many people need to lose some weight.
This is a large misconception that you need 1000W of power. The number of people with knee replacements and hip replacements in the U.S alone is staggering.
Almost 4.5 million people underwent knee replacement in 2010. If they did a mild cardio E-bike activity on a decent E-bike, they would lessen the burden on hospitals and enjoy a great quality of life without all that suffering.
350W to 500W is plenty of power. The market needs an E-bike that handles like a bike, can be ridden on bike trails until the biking infrastructure is developed.
In many states, riding an E-bike is almost suicidal and until the infrastructure picks up, we need a responsible approach to E-bikes.
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Gionnirocket
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- USA
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- Y. O.
No worries Ravi... I'm really not a cheerleader of any brand.
But the handful of Bosch'ers that eat this stuff up need a little ________
But the handful of Bosch'ers that eat this stuff up need a little ________
Ebiker33
Well-Known Member
I hear your argument Ravi, but there are other arguments to be made, is it your typical overweight American like you say, perhaps a 275lb man decides to take up Ebike riding with a big fatty in a mountainous region, that Bosch motor isn't going cut it. Now take yourself, a guy in shape, on a carbon fiber frame with a lighter motor and battery, and skinner wheels, it won't be an issue. A Shimano EP8 on a Santa Cruz Heckler for example these guys have no issue with hills with that Ebike, the video makes your point and I see it. That Ebike is also 10K
But the ultra and the M600 at 120nm plus have a place for certain situations.
But the ultra and the M600 at 120nm plus have a place for certain situations.
Akrotiri
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Europe
I don’t know of any e-bike on the market that is above 300lb recommended combined rider/ebike weight. So a 275lb rider together with his e-bike will exceed the combined weight limit of 300lb by a good margin.
There are some steel frame touring bikes that are rated for 375lb (170kg) but those are non-electric.
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Haystacks
Well-Known Member
I do. Watt Wagons hydra. And it's carbon. And an Ultra. Ooops.
Akrotiri
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- Region
- Europe
Well that’s not an economical Bafang over there is it? One of the main selling points of Bafang users is that the motors are so much cheaper than Bosch based e-bikes. The hydra is how much $5-6k? And with a 1500watt motor it’s even illegal in the US on all bike trails, lanes and paths. Ooops.
The hydra lists 325lb on the WW website not 375lb.
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Haystacks
Well-Known Member
There's literally hundreds, i chose WW hydra because its very relevant, oh and......... I've ordered a Dengfu E06 plus M620 and its considerably less than the hydra also above that weight limit. And my folder is 200kg limit. You were saying? Oh thats right same as ever, chatting nonsense on an anti bafang tip. slow clap
Gionnirocket
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- USA
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- Y. O.
Akrotiri
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- Europe
Nothing you said proved me wrong guy. Especially when you can’t cite links to the 400lb weight limit of the folder. You’re talking nonsense. Have no idea why you’re so angry and get hysterical. You have to accept that people won’t always agree with you. Don’t take it personal.
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Akrotiri
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- Europe
For people who like to sing the praises of bafang yea it is since you’re the one that always talks about the low cost of bafangs even in this thread.So now cost is a legitimate concern...
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Gionnirocket
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- Y. O.
ohh Bafang, you beautiful budget beauty of a beast
Ravi Kempaiah
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- Halifax
No worries, guys! I am not here to propagate pollyanna about one particular brand.
I am not trying to disparage Bafang folks. I am sure there are many hard-working engineers and mechanics at the Bafang factory and the company is run by well-meaning executives and engineers.
Tests that were done by Rob or the e-MTB channel can only add to the collective knowledge and it will ultimately result in companies offering better products to the end-user.
If Bosch is currently charging a high price on their batteries, maybe they will try to re-think or offer better value in some other way.
If Bafang were producing sub-standard products, then they will try to offer a better torque sensor/controller. A healthy dose of criticism is good for the end-user and the companies.
I am not trying to disparage Bafang folks. I am sure there are many hard-working engineers and mechanics at the Bafang factory and the company is run by well-meaning executives and engineers.
Tests that were done by Rob or the e-MTB channel can only add to the collective knowledge and it will ultimately result in companies offering better products to the end-user.
If Bosch is currently charging a high price on their batteries, maybe they will try to re-think or offer better value in some other way.
If Bafang were producing sub-standard products, then they will try to offer a better torque sensor/controller. A healthy dose of criticism is good for the end-user and the companies.
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
Whether I agree or disagree with what is being discussed in these Youtube videos, I'm glad there are people out there (like Rob) making them.
Keep on making those videos, Rob.
Keep on making those videos, Rob.
RunForTheHills
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
I know you are being facetious, but think about how bikes actually fail under excessive weight. Spokes break, cranks bend, pedals break, the frame cracks under stress from repetitive bumps and potholes, seat posts break, etc. These types of failures happen even if you don't exceed the maximum recommended weight on the bike. Manufacturers need to warrant the equipment against these kinds of failures, so they use a conservative number when they publish specifications to avoid excessive warranty claims. Of course you can exceed the weight limit. It likely that your bike easily exceeds the manufacturers recommendation. Maybe it breaks as soon as you push off for the first time. Maybe it is tenth time.
@Ravi Kempaiah this is one of the few times that I will disagree with you.
This statement reminds me the ones like "Oh Tesla is nothing if Toyota/Ford wanted to they would have easily built far superior electric cars" which were said in Tesla's early days. We all know what happened, Tesla singlehandedly created the electric car market and now those so called big players can only copy Tesla's designs.
Bosch is just another company. It has some products that do not live up to their price tags and some that do. In my opinion their ebike motors are good products.
However the technology for designing an ebike motor is mature, if there is demand a small group of engineers can easily match what Bosch can do.
---- Back to the subject ------------
Although testing is not the best, I also think Rob proved a point and that is when it comes to mtb, Bosch is better than m500. It seems when the cadence is very low, like the final part of the climb where he can barely pedal, Bosch seems to be still going strong but m500 seems like it stops giving support. This may be fixed by a software update or maybe the supplied controller is simply not good enough. But for now it is what it is.
Interesting question. Apparently both Wattwagons and Zen's new models have recently undergone frame durability fatigue stress testing following sort of ASTM/DIN standards at some official TUF/UL testing facility (maybe). Perhaps passing these tests at some level allows manufacturer's to claim certain weight capacity limits to meet whatever legal liabilities they incur just by marketing their bikes. They and/or their lawyers would likely know how to answer this and the difference the static load of the bike's weight vs the dynamic load of a pedaling rider would make is this claimed specification.
tomjasz
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- USA
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- Minnesnowta
After 6 years of BBSxx support I recognize they are the best MD option FOR ME.
I remain a fan of Bosch and their direct competitors. They’re just WAY more expensive and I’ve never seen a Bosch drive on a flatfoot frame that I was happy with.
a neighbor has 12,000 miles on his Trek/Bosch. Impressive from my view.
if Bafang would finally offer real support to kit resellers I’d be ecstatic. But I’m not holding my breath.
We waited nearly three years for a BBSxx parts stream. Now the shop is adding more 510/600 parts but access is still spotty. I’ve tried for years to have a parts list and data accessible for the changes by serial number. That doesn’t affect users as much as the businesses trying to offer exemplary Service to DIY kit builders.
I remain a fan of Bosch and their direct competitors. They’re just WAY more expensive and I’ve never seen a Bosch drive on a flatfoot frame that I was happy with.
a neighbor has 12,000 miles on his Trek/Bosch. Impressive from my view.
if Bafang would finally offer real support to kit resellers I’d be ecstatic. But I’m not holding my breath.
We waited nearly three years for a BBSxx parts stream. Now the shop is adding more 510/600 parts but access is still spotty. I’ve tried for years to have a parts list and data accessible for the changes by serial number. That doesn’t affect users as much as the businesses trying to offer exemplary Service to DIY kit builders.
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