E-Bike Batteries Are Catching on Fire Way Too Often And delivery workers are demanding safe charging stations.

[PCeBiker]

I am of course also using a 12-hour manual cutoff timer but in this case I'm charging so slow the 12 hour charge time is not enough to overcharge the pack - not even close.

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My WAMPTEK bench power supply just arrived.
I've got the new automatic model without the fine adjustment knobs.

I'm going to charge the same way, nice and slow and only charge to 80% charge, then charge the battery to 100% once a month or so to balance the cells.

It is has a 5 amp maximum output, but I'm never going to turn it up past half.
It is Chinesium so I don't want to run it at max.

 

[AHicks]

Well I’ve stayed on this in helping a shop build a new business and that attitude can cost more than most are willing to pay. Another production fire was brought to my attention. Big name maker. House and 3 vehicles reduced to bare charcoal studs and warped steel. I now know of 4 fires in litigation and lawyers mitts. Those that keep claiming it’s just cheap batteries are kidding themselves. Until sodium or other chemistries come into play I’ll continue to consider my packs as mines. They can be handled safely but a wrong move, poor judgement, bad practices, and flippant attitude can spell disaster. Mark my words. The volcano of regulations is building pressure and will erupt sooner than later.

Comes down to your comfort zone, your personal level of paranoia, doesn't it?

I've been in radio controlled models for a REALLY long time now. I've come up through the ranks with the advances made in each new battery tech. and the changes they require to use/operate them with a reasonable level of comfort. That comfort level is not going to be swayed by the opinion of a handful of people who know about "4 fires in litigation and lawyers mitts, or some dumb a$$ with 100 (or 1000?) RAD bikes.

In that 100 Rad bike owner's case, how many of those employees (non english speaking delivery drivers?) received instruction on specifics regarding the proper care and feeding of an e-bike battery? What facilities were provided to them for that purpose? Who exactly, supervised that activity? The potential for a frozen battery for instance. Was there somebody there that might have picked up on that? What about a badly flooded battery, no longer chemically able to be charged?

So back to comfort level. Let's consider the potential for you to be turned into a hood ornament on your next bike ride? How many times a day do you hear/read about something like that, as compared to "battery fires"? How about the potential for getting into a debilitating car wreck the next time you're behind the wheel? Same scenario, where that wreck is the fault of some space cadet or drunk? Does the fact I'm willing to ride MY bike in public, or drive MY car on an errand indicate I have a "flippant" attitude? Hell no it doesn't. It's much more likely to indicate I've considered the potential for trouble, found it within MY PERSONAL COMFORT LEVEL, and am proceeding - just like a few million others.....

To close, I'm pretty comfortable walking around outside, knowing full well what the potential is for me to be struck dead by a flash of lightening. You make your call. If it's different than mine, don't try convincing me mine is wrong.......-Al

 

[m@Robertson]

My WAMPTEK bench power supply just arrived.
I've got the new automatic model without the fine adjustment knobs.



I'm going to charge the same way, nice and slow and only charge to 80% charge, then charge the battery to 100% once a month or so to balance the cells.

It is has a 5 amp maximum output, but I'm never going to turn it up past half.
It is Chinesium so I don't want to run it at max.

My two with the fine adj knobs are still going strong. I don't think I would want to do without the fine knobs as the coarse ones have pretty big jumps with slight changes.

I bought that model after I saw a guy do a teardown of one, evaluate its innards and declare it to be of good quality. With that said though, I used to have three of them. One just died one day a month or so after I bought it. So only 2 out of 3 success stories there at 90 bucks a pop. After #3 died I decided I would stick with the Mean Wells and their bulletproof success rate.

Still, I really like the display and adjustability, and the one I have at the office is used every day and is about 2 years old.

Both of them are hooked up to that same countdown timer in your picture. 0.3a current being run on this one below. On my biggest batteries - 32ah and 35ah - I have cranked that sucker right up to max if I need a fast charge. A pack that size can take it, and when they start getting near peak voltage they roll down the current so you don't get big power coming out for the last hour or more of the charge cycle.

 

[tomjasz]

Comes down to your comfort zone, your personal level of paranoia, doesn't it?

No comes down to your willingness to be aware. You’re the best, and have nothing but my respect, but these aren’t RC batteries. Our eBike packs are far more powerful. It’s a poor comparison.

paranoia

 

[fooferdoggie]

No comes down to your willingness to be aware. You’re the best, and have nothing but my respect, but these aren’t RC batteries. Our eBike packs are far more powerful. It’s a poor comparison.

yes but you charge those rc packs far faster at higher amps and they are drained far faster too. plus they don't have any electronics in them.

 

[tomjasz]

yes but you charge those rc packs far faster at higher amps and they are drained far faster too. plus they don't have any electronics in them.

So? Your cells don’t have electronics. Your point eludes me. Those RC packs are far smaller than your ebike packs.

 

[PCeBiker]

My two with the fine adj knobs are still going strong. I don't think I would want to do without the fine knobs as the coarse ones have pretty big jumps with slight changes.

My model combines the course and fine knobs. I can scroll through the digits individually to set them.

I bought that model after I saw a guy do a teardown of one, evaluate its innards and declare it to be of good quality. With that said though, I used to have three of them. One just died one day a month or so after I bought it. So only 2 out of 3 success stories there at 90 bucks a pop.

110 bucks for me,..

After #3 died I decided I would stick with the Mean Wells and their bulletproof success rate.

Yeah, I know about the MeanWell drivers and power supplies.

I have 2 Chinesium voltage supplies feeding my plant.
(you're allowed to grow 4 plants in Ontario for recreational purposes.)

They cost $40 each.
A proper MeanWell LED driver would cost me $400-$700.

Still, I really like the display and adjustability, and the one I have at the office is used every day and is about 2 years old.

Me Too !!!
I don't have an office, but I really do feel like a two year old on Christmas day.

Both of them are hooked up to that same countdown timer in your picture. 0.3a current being run on this one below. On my biggest batteries - 32ah and 35ah - I have cranked that sucker right up to max if I need a fast charge.

I ain't be crankin my Chinesium supply past half.
2.5 Amps max.

A pack that size can take it,

I don't care about what the pack can take.
I care about what my power supply can deliver in the long term.

and when they start getting near peak voltage they roll down the current so you don't get big power coming out for the last hour or more of the charge

I'm not too concerned about my power supply failing, as long as it doesn't set my on fire while doing so ..

I intend to treat my battery and charger real tenderly.

 

[m@Robertson]

My model combines the course and fine knobs. I can scroll through the digits individually to set them.

So the Output button switches the buttons between coarse and fine modes?

They cost $40 each.
A proper MeanWell LED driver would cost me $400-$700.

Yeah if I had to spend that I'd be looking for alternatives too. What I used as an onboard charger on my most recent build is a 185w unit set to feed 3a and 58.8v... I spent about US$45 on it a couple years ago on Ebay but Jesus the damn things are US$75 today. The 320w units are wired together in series and used as Zero motorcycle chargers. I got two of them for US$40 from some guy who apparently didn't know what he had. Cut them apart and boom two weatherproof chargers able to go to 58v that can easily be set up to 5a. If they weren't so damn big and heavy I would have used one of them for the onboard charger instead of the 185w unit.

I intend to treat my battery and charger real tenderly.

That approach has always served me very well, yielding to me batteries that last years with zero measurable degradation.

 

[m@Robertson]

Never mind on the adjustment. I see how they work it. The one I have, the set amperage tends to drift over time so, if that no longer happens, then this method would be great. Otherwise it will be tedious.

What happens is - apparently - it is not quite CC+CV. Or maybe its the Chinese version of CC+CV. It seems that when the unit is in CC mode, its algorithm is sort of set to at least try and favor continuous watt output. Not quite... its as if there's a ball and chain dragging output very slowly down and, if you sit and stare at it long enough, it seems as if the damn thing is trying to maintain wattage output at the expense of amps. It will still bump up as voltage increases, but if you start out at say 1.00 amps, and come back a couple hours later, even if you are a couple volts low of the target (i.e. it is nowhere near switching to CV mode), amperage will have decreased to, say... 0.979. You fix it with a slight tap on the fine-adjust knob.

Not enough to lose any sleep over. But a minor nit that, with any luck, they have corrected on this later model.

 

[PCeBiker]

,.. amperage will have decreased to, say... 0.979. You fix it with a slight tap on the fine-adjust knob.

Not enough to lose any sleep over. But a minor nit that, with any luck, they have corrected on this later model.

My concern is whether or not the display is accurate and not reading 0.979 amps when it's actually putting out 1.000 amps.

It's even more important with the voltage.
48.5 volts is only about 1% more than 48.0 volts, but that 1% difference means a lot when it comes to lithium batteries.

But, as you mentioned earlier, if I only charge to ~80%, I've got some wiggle room for small inaccuracies.

 

[PCeBiker]

That approach has always served me very well, yielding to me batteries that last years with zero measurable degradation.

I do the same thing with my plant.
The LED strips can handle 700 mA each but then you need to install a heat sink and maybe fans to cool them.
I just run the strips and power supplies at half max, then I don't have to worry about heat.
Everything lasts way longer and I don't have to worry about starting any fires.

 

[Nomad]

If you eliminate poorly made batteries and changers and people weren't leaving their batteries on chargers for excessive long amount of time battery firers would be rare. Manufacturers and irresponsible people are currently causing most of the problems. That is not to say that all manufacturers and people, but the numbers are unacceptable.

 

[AHicks]

No comes down to your willingness to be aware. You’re the best, and have nothing but my respect, but these aren’t RC batteries. Our eBike packs are far more powerful. It’s a poor comparison.

Tom, the end result of abuse, crappy quality, poor construction, and/or ignorance is usually the same, a fire. Sure, a bike pack contains more cells, but generally speaking, it's ONE cell that sets off a chain reaction. NOT a poor comparison at all. An RC pack sitting on a bench is every bit as capable of burning your house down as an e-bike pack.....

That said, I'm not going to stop using either size pack because of that potential, and I'm not going to make a lot of noise because of a couple of idiots. This is mainstream stuff now. Imagine where we would be if the volatility of the energy stored in your gas tank was more widely covered.... -Al

 

[tomjasz]

Tom, the end result of abuse, crappy quality, poor construction, and/or ignorance is usually the same, a fire.

Sadly as the data becomes more available and more lawsuits are filed, that isn't as accurate as I once thought.

Look, trying to color concern as paranoia or an overreaction helps no one.

There are brand name fires reported by respected active members here. But again those non-disclosures and the need for the victims to not jeopardize their lawsuits keep important information hidden.

So a reader has two choices. I'm FOS or the deniers are FOS. Take your pick. But having seen the horrible psychological effects of a fire taking a lifetime of memories in a matter of minutes makes me take good care and additional protective measures are warranted.

Just as a curiosity, not a criticism, did you have time to read the Consumer Reports story?

It does report, "Specific data on the brands causing these fires aren’t available, but fire experts say they suspect that low-quality batteries from fringe players are often to blame."

But the fact remains, "Specific data on the brands causing these fires aren’t available.."

However, there is growing evidence that those luxury brands have their share of issues. This is why we see Ford and CATL, CATL with a 35% market share of EV batteries) building multibillion-dollar factories and moving to sodium and other far safer chemistries.

 

[Art Deco]

Sadly as the data becomes more available and more lawsuits are filed, that isn't as accurate as I once thought.

Look, trying to color concern as paranoia or an overreaction helps no one.

There are brand name fires reported by respected active members here. But again those non-disclosures and the need for the victims to not jeopardize their lawsuits keep important information hidden.

So a reader has two choices. I'm FOS or the deniers are FOS. Take your pick. But having seen the horrible psychological effects of a fire taking a lifetime of memories in a matter of minutes makes me take good care and additional protective measures are warranted.

Just as a curiosity, not a criticism, did you have time to read the Consumer Reports story?

It does report, "Specific data on the brands causing these fires aren’t available, but fire experts say they suspect that low-quality batteries from fringe players are often to blame."

But the fact remains, "Specific data on the brands causing these fires aren’t available.."

However, there is growing evidence that those luxury brands have their share of issues. This is why we see Ford and CATL, CATL with a 35% market share of EV batteries) building multibillion-dollar factories and moving to sodium and other far safer chemistries.

The truth is these LI batteries aren't really safe, no matter how you baby them. And the manufacturers really don't care until they lose their first lawsuit or two. Just like cars before " Unsafe at Any Speed" was published, it's just not an issue yet, but it will be soon.

We used to sleep in our campervan with the ebikes maybe 18 inches from our heads on the rear racks. That's stupid. Never again...

 

[AHicks]

Sadly as the data becomes more available and more lawsuits are filed, that isn't as accurate as I once thought.

Look, trying to color concern as paranoia or an overreaction helps no one.

There are brand name fires reported by respected active members here. But again those non-disclosures and the need for the victims to not jeopardize their lawsuits keep important information hidden.

So a reader has two choices. I'm FOS or the deniers are FOS. Take your pick. But having seen the horrible psychological effects of a fire taking a lifetime of memories in a matter of minutes makes me take good care and additional protective measures are warranted.

Just as a curiosity, not a criticism, did you have time to read the Consumer Reports story?

It does report, "Specific data on the brands causing these fires aren’t available, but fire experts say they suspect that low-quality batteries from fringe players are often to blame."

But the fact remains, "Specific data on the brands causing these fires aren’t available.."

However, there is growing evidence that those luxury brands have their share of issues. This is why we see Ford and CATL, CATL with a 35% market share of EV batteries) building multibillion-dollar factories and moving to sodium and other far safer chemistries.

My concern is the exact opposite of yours. Your notes seem to paint a picture indicating that rookies looking for info on the topic should not buy an e-bike because of the danger of a battery fire. I find that totally unacceptable - worthy of nothing but to be put in the "bad information" bin.

That said, I think we CAN agree that the chance of a fire go down with better educated users..... -Al

 

[Art Deco]

My concern is the exact opposite of yours. Your notes seem to paint a picture indicating that rookies looking for info on the topic should not buy an e-bike because of the danger of a battery fire. I find that totally unacceptable - worthy of nothing but to be put in the "bad information" bin.

That said, I think we CAN agree that the chance of a fire go down with better educated users..... -Al

I disagree strongly. An ignorant user or an expert user makes no damn difference unless you are as paranoid as Tom J.

He is right about batteries...like cars they can/will kill you... use caution and deal with it.

Not you specifically @AHicks, I've read enough of your posts to know you are aware of the issues, but it's important that we don't pretend these things are actually really really safe or some newbie will get killed from pure ignorance.

Yes, they are worth the risk, but the risk isn't trivial. Not at all.

 

[tomjasz]

paranoid as Tom J.

Yeah, I remember when many thought belt laws were silly and the work of paranoid legislators.

Paranoid? Who me?

 

[Art Deco]

Yeah, I remember when many thought belt laws were silly and the work of paranoid legislators.

Paranoid? Who me?

In today's world, being a bit paranoid is probably healthy. The alternative is a naive faith that nothing bad will happen ... until it does.

 

[Asher]

The truth is these LI batteries aren't really safe, no matter how you baby them. And the manufacturers really don't care until they lose their first lawsuit or two. Just like cars before " Unsafe at Any Speed" was published, it's just not an issue yet, but it will be soon.

We used to sleep in our campervan with the ebikes maybe 18 inches from our heads on the rear racks. That's stupid. Never again...

There's a certain kind of guy who always wants to blame the user, not the manufacturer, when the manufacturer's whole marketing pitch is here's this new carefree way to get around. This guy gets off on feeling superior to the average Joe.

The answer is almost always going to be make the experts do their job and create an idiot proof product. Not make every consumer into a hazmat expert.