E-Bike Batteries Are Catching on Fire Way Too Often And delivery workers are demanding safe charging stations.

[m@Robertson]

You have to get down to the section "Impact on Delivery Workers" to see how this law is in any way relevant.

I can't help but remember that NYC is an island unto itself that was the only place in the USA that genuinely banned ebikes (NY State only had them in a catch 22 limbo and didn't expressly outlaw them). They were the only place in the USA with police actively confiscating ebikes. The only place in the USA where police rounded up riders in dragnet operations. If you are going to find a place in the USA that is shrieking and clutching their pearls over ebikes, its this place. Anything anyone in NYC government says or does needs to be filtered through this historical lens. A city whose government hates ebikes but has only recently been dragged kicking and screaming into allowing them... sort of.

NYC is also the city whose population is the most reliant on an under-class of worker who has to rely on the cheapest and most dangerous methods of doing their job. You don't see second-hand rebuilt batteries being used en masse anywhere else (literally), nor do you see the jerry-rigged charging farms that are an inferno waiting for a spark. NYC does not have a problem with ebikes. NYC has a different problem that happens to have ebikes in it.

 

[Asher]

Vancouver has also had a problem with ebike fires. 34 in an 20 month period - haven't crunched the numbers to adjust for population, but it's significant.

Electric bike batteries creating potentially deadly fire hazard

Read these home fire safety tips that could save your life

www.vancouverisawesome.com

Poverty is not peculiar to New York, but dodgy import e-bikes en masse are. Almost anywhere else in the US, it would be more work and cost to acquire a dodgy bike with a high volume battery than to buy one from Juiced/Aventon/whoever, who have a clean record. Maybe they are sold here and there, but it's not bound up with a community of intense commercial usage.

 

[tomjasz]

The majority in my area STILL believe belt laws, no littering signs…are the work of the Gubment. Most prefer to sit on their belt.

yeah, I’ve a couple of those neighbors too. Same sort that believe Katrina was some gods punishment for gay folks.

 

[tomjasz]

Vancouver has also had a problem with ebike fires. 34 in an 20 month period - haven't crunched the numbers to adjust for population, but it's significant.

Electric bike batteries creating potentially deadly fire hazard

Read these home fire safety tips that could save your life

www.vancouverisawesome.com

Poverty is not peculiar to New York, but dodgy import e-bikes en masse are. Almost anywhere else in the US, it would be more work and cost to acquire a dodgy bike with a high volume battery than to buy one from Juiced/Aventon/whoever, who have a clean record. Maybe they are sold here and there, but it's not bound up with a community of intense commercial usage.

And yet there are a dozen really nice posters here who will argue in favor of budget batteries until their dying frying breath. Go figure.

 

[tomjasz]

Brands being sued for fires?

Yes. But blathering details jeopardizes their claims and settlements. Again, I’m aware of several here. But they’ll never risk their financial recovery to make a point. Jeebus I hate conspiracy blather but…

 

[6zfshdb]

Let's consider for a moment that our eBike batteries can have 10 times the number of cells. My earliest, 2014, 20Ah pack had over 100 cells!

Metaphorically speaking, it's the difference between a firecracker and a stick of dynamite.

 

[6zfshdb]

At least continue through the "B"s for battery ... think about the treatment millions of cordless tools receive on a job site by often untrained workers ... dropped in mud and puddles, drill and saw handles (with batteries installed) used as hammers, batteries run dead and recharged multiple times a day, etc... yet I am not aware of any tool battery related fires.

Not transportation related, I admit, but still shows what can be done to "idiot proof" a product.

Cordless tool battery fires are very rare, but they do exist. A local tractor dealership 2 miles away nearly burned to the ground due to a faulty charger. The overheated charger ignited flammables in the shop area. Not a very smart place to charge.

As @tomjasz says, it's a matter of scale. Tool batteries have a lot less inside to fail and they are more ruggedly constructed than the average e-bike battery.

Are 10 tool batteries safer than a single e-bike battery containing the same amount of energy? IMO, yes. They can be isolated from each other so if one does fail, the result would be far less catastrophic.

I've been using tool batteries on my bikes for a couple of years now with great results. I carry only as many as I need for a particular ride. That way, I can minimize weight and improve bike balance. They cost 20 to 30% more per KW than a good e-bike battery but the added safety factor is worth it to me.

 

[Robspace1]

I thought I stated "production bikes" pretty clearly, no?

"batteries and chargers supplied with production bikes can be used safely as is"

"Aftermarket" opens a whole new/different can of worms. I get that, and suggest appropriate cautions are in order when dealing with them.

You have it right. The vast majority of battery fires are from people buying junk, diy batteries from shady sellers. The most fires are happening in big cities like NY with delivery drivers. The companies are cutting costs by buying junk batteries thrown together by shady illegal operators. There's been a lot of reporting done on this problem and NY is cracking down on this sleazy business. It's not a major problem with standard ebike batteries from known bike companies.

 

[Robspace1]

Thomas, you're welcome to be cautious as you like, but to sit there and try to scare people with production bikes, using suggested charging practices per owners manual, into being as cautious as you prefer, is something you can count on being called out on every time I see it. As can EASILY be seen by the lack of reported fires nation wide, your cautions are overkill, period.

I doubt seriously that we would be seeing the kinds of sales numbers we're seeing if the chances of a fire were even close to what you are implying. If you can't/wont agree, we'll need to agree to disagree on this point and move on.... -Al

Thanks, A Hicks for putting it in perspective and keeping it grounded. Some folks will over blow everything. lol

 

[Robspace1]

I don't want to get a war going here, but my bet is if that operator, with 100 Rad bikes being charged regularly in a commercial environment (red flags going up yet?), was following ALL suggested practices (for instance avoiding charging a frozen or overheated battery?), using chargers that have not been abused (eg charge jacks yanked from batteries by pulling on the cable?) their chances of that fire would have been greatly reduced.

Further, if RAD (or anyone else) did have a big issue with the batteries they were using, wouldn't it figure this guy wouldn't be the only one complaining? How many battery fires have been noted in the RAD thread here? I've been following it for quite a while, and I don't remember seeing one, let alone enough of them to get me real concerned about potential issues....

I am not saying it's impossible to have an issue with a production bike battery. My point is that given NORMAL usage, by a retail end user, the chances of a fire are pretty remote.

You do as you like.....

Bike rental places get real busy in the summer. Hot days, hot batteries. Throw in a busy day and I can easily see how this could happen. No battery cool down time.

 

[Robspace1]

The delivery people can go back to traditional bicycles if they have a problem with the cheap eBikes and chargers they use. It worked for probably 100 years before eBikes were available.

Or the greedy delivery companies can stop buying cut rate batteries thrown together in someone's basement.

 

[Robspace1]

Ravi which brands of bikes have UL certified batteries? Is this only the big brands like specialized etc?
Or do Rad power , etc have them too?

What about EM3?

Ecotric is UL Certified

 

[Robspace1]

Ok now I am terrified. My new Luna on the way. Should I charge inside the bike or take the battery out? I live on the beach so I’m wondering if Salt air going to be an issue. It seems like charging on the bike would make the battery much hotter. Any advice appreciated.

Relax. Salt air won't hurt it. Just keep it out the water. lol Charge with battery on bike. Allow 2 hr. cool down after riding before recharging. Enjoy.

 

[Robspace1]

Comes down to your comfort zone, your personal level of paranoia, doesn't it?

I've been in radio controlled models for a REALLY long time now. I've come up through the ranks with the advances made in each new battery tech. and the changes they require to use/operate them with a reasonable level of comfort. That comfort level is not going to be swayed by the opinion of a handful of people who know about "4 fires in litigation and lawyers mitts, or some dumb a$$ with 100 (or 1000?) RAD bikes.

In that 100 Rad bike owner's case, how many of those employees (non english speaking delivery drivers?) received instruction on specifics regarding the proper care and feeding of an e-bike battery? What facilities were provided to them for that purpose? Who exactly, supervised that activity? The potential for a frozen battery for instance. Was there somebody there that might have picked up on that? What about a badly flooded battery, no longer chemically able to be charged?

So back to comfort level. Let's consider the potential for you to be turned into a hood ornament on your next bike ride? How many times a day do you hear/read about something like that, as compared to "battery fires"? How about the potential for getting into a debilitating car wreck the next time you're behind the wheel? Same scenario, where that wreck is the fault of some space cadet or drunk? Does the fact I'm willing to ride MY bike in public, or drive MY car on an errand indicate I have a "flippant" attitude? Hell no it doesn't. It's much more likely to indicate I've considered the potential for trouble, found it within MY PERSONAL COMFORT LEVEL, and am proceeding - just like a few million others.....

To close, I'm pretty comfortable walking around outside, knowing full well what the potential is for me to be struck dead by a flash of lightening. You make your call. If it's different than mine, don't try convincing me mine is wrong.......-Al

BAM! There it is!

 

[Asher]

Or the greedy delivery companies can stop buying cut rate batteries thrown together in someone's basement.

The delivery companies don't own anything. It's the deliveristas themselves.

 

[tomjasz]

vast majority

Citation?

Ecotric is UL Certified

I missed that can you link us? All I can find is UL Certified. No reference to their battery. These EOM-insulated Chinese makers direct-to-customer companies are well known for obfuscating the details. I'd STFU if it is true. And please remember that many CE ratings have turned out to be balderdash.

No battery cool down time.

Well-designed systems will not need a cool down.

Salt air won't hurt it.

Again based on what? We've seen issues here from time to time. And having lived in the Caribbean that's a misrepresentation to those seeking advice. WA and the tropics are very different places.

greedy delivery companies

insulate themselves by using drivers with their own bikes and then paying miserable wages. I agree this is awful!

BAM! There it is!

Yeah, three old guys thinking we know better...

I hope I'm wrong.

 

[tomjasz]

Ecotric is UL Certified

Well, I just proved myself wrong,

GENERAL​

This category covers the electrical systems of e-bikes.

E-bikes are defined as two- or three-wheeled electrical/mechanical devices provided with functional pedals that include one or more electric motors to either assist the rider when pedaling (EPAC versions) or provide motive power to the wheels when the rider is not pedaling.

E-bikes include an electronic controller (speed governor) which stops the motor from producing mechanical power when a maximum speed specified by the manufacturer has been reached.

The electrical systems of e-bikes include, but are not limited to, the motor, motor controller, user interfaces/controls, battery pack charging circuit and charger either on-board or off-board. The combination of battery pack/battery management system and charger is investigated to address the risk of electric shock and fire hazards associated with the electrical system.

Injury associated with hazards arising from physical operation or braking of the e-bike by the rider, or to a passenger or pedestrians is not included in the scope of the certification.

These products have not been investigated to address the mechanical integrity of the bicycle upon which the electrical system is mounted nor that of the braking mechanism. Compliance with 16CFR1512, "Requirements for Bicycles," is not verified by this certification. It is the manufacturer's responsibility to conform to the federal regulations.

PRODUCT INSTRUCTIONS​

E-bikes are provided with instructions for proper use including charging, discharging, storage, washing and cleaning, and operation.

These instructions include temperature limits, charging and discharging limits associated with the battery.

An e-bike provided with a detachable battery pack intended to be removed from the bicycle for charging purposes is provided with instructions for the safe handling of the battery pack, including removal and insertion into the e-bike, during charging, and during storage of fully charged batteries.

PRODUCT MARKINGS​

E-bikes are marked with:

the manufacturer's name, trade name, trademark or other descriptive marking that may identify the organization responsible for the product,

the part number or model number,

the electrical rating, and

the date of manufacture.

On-board systems intended to be charged by an off-board charger are marked "Use only ____ charger." The blank contains charger-specific identification information.

An e-bike that is manufactured at more than one factory is marked to uniquely identify the factory of manufacture.

PRODUCT IDENTITY​

One of the following product identities appears on the product:



E-Bike Electrical System



Electric Bicycle Electrical System

Electrical Systems for E-Bicycles

RELATED PRODUCTS​

Electrically powered motorcycles for over-the-road use and their electrical systems are covered under E-Motorcycles (FEBL).

Electrically powered scooters for over-the-road use and their electrical systems are covered under E-Scooters (FEBR).

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION​

For additional information, see Electrical Equipment for Use in Ordinary Locations (AALZ).

REQUIREMENTS​

The basic standard used to investigate products in this category is CAN/UL 2849, "Electrical Systems for eBikes."

UL MARK​

The Certification Mark of UL on the product is the only method provided by UL to identify products manufactured under its Certification and Follow-Up Service. The Certification Mark for these products includes the UL symbol, the words "CERTIFIED" and "SAFETY," the geographic identifier(s), and a file number.

The Certification Mark for this category requires the use of a holographic label, except for e-bikes, for which use of a holographic label is required effective July 2, 2022.

Additional Certification Markings​

Products covered under this category are additionally marked with the following information:

UL 2849
AS TO ELECTRIC SHOCK AND FIRE HAZARDS ONLY
Alternate Marking Options

For products with limited space for markings, the Certification Mark includes the UL symbol, the words "CERTIFIED" and "SAFETY," and a file number. In addition, the product's user manual or instructions will contain the complete Certification Mark as described above.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

UL, in performing its functions in accordance with its objectives, does not assume or undertake to discharge any responsibility of the manufacturer or any other party. UL shall not incur any obligation or liability for any loss, expense or damages, including incidental or consequential damages, arising out of or in connection with the use, interpretation of, or reliance upon this Guide Information.

Last Updated on 2020-08-27​

 

[Robspace1]

It is a only a paid Good Housekeeping 'Seal.' That is all. UL is off the hook no matter what. 'No liability!' Read above.
View attachment 148334

Why should they be sued if some fool wrecks the bike or overheats the battery causing a fire? No inspection in the world can be done that will prevent stupidity on the part of an operator or a part failure at some future point. There no legal way to say for certain what will happen to any inspected part after it's been inspected. How can anyone say for sure? It simply means the bike was inspected and found to be safe from dangerous defects at the time of inspection. Legally, that's as good as it gets from anyone.

 

[Robspace1]

Why UL Certification? https://www.getcleartouch.com/4-rea...l-certification-and-not-other-certifications/

 

[Asher]

That respected member will not be returning to EBR. Many insurance policies state no comment with anything pending. They want a quiet settlement without the big, 'Special' known maker admitting their fires publicly. IMO it is like Harvie Weinstein's protectors before he got busted. Rapist. F-ing Rapist. At 70 he now has 39-years behind bars.
View attachment 148332 View attachment 148333

California actually passed a great law saying sexual assault/harassment can't be gagged by employers under an NDA.

The crazy thing is that all kinds of abuse, fraud and crime still CAN be bound by NDA, for corporations everywhere. I'm not sure if the plaintiffs sign the NDA for more money, less risk, or because they can't afford a full trial, but regardless, there is way too much under NDA.