Everyone is different. Sometimes it’s hard to explain to someone why they should pay an extra $200 for what looks like the same thing.
E-Bike Batteries Are Catching on Fire Way Too Often And delivery workers are demanding safe charging stations.
- Thread starter Solarcabin
- Start date
mschwett
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
not the only one, but perhaps a minority these days. generally people seem to want more rather than better. otherwise walmart and the like would not exist.
mschwett
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
it should really just be a legal requirement - although i don’t have the expertise to say what the certification should be - there should be some.
imagine if when buying a car you had the choice of one with a properly designed, isolated, protected fuel tank, or one which just had a cheap bladder in a crumple zone for $500 less. the latter isn’t going to cause you any problems at all! unless you get into an accident involving that portion of the vehicle with a full tank! it might even offer a larger fuel capacity, just like a cheaper ebike battery on a per dollar basis. and just like batteries, some would say “i’m a responsible experienced user, i don’t need all those safeguards on my tank.”
My perception is much of the electronic stuff available on Amazon at a low price is overpriced for what it is.
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
I've heard of a few bike shops that are refusing to work on e-bikes because of the perceived fire hazard. Can't really blame them. Fortunately my LBS is Bosch-certified so that isn't a problem there.
One thing I wonder about is fake certifications. I've bought a lot of electronics on the semi-gray market and there were a lot of things I bought that were in no imaginable way up to standard yet they had all of the UL and CE certification labels. For me, not wanting to wear my electrical engineer hat all day is reason enough to stick to name brand battery and charging systems. Although there will probably be fakes even of those...
One thing I wonder about is fake certifications. I've bought a lot of electronics on the semi-gray market and there were a lot of things I bought that were in no imaginable way up to standard yet they had all of the UL and CE certification labels. For me, not wanting to wear my electrical engineer hat all day is reason enough to stick to name brand battery and charging systems. Although there will probably be fakes even of those...
Thus the problem, labels can be fakes also. I tend to buy electronic products from companies that have something to loose if there is a serious problem. I wouldn't trust online companies with names like Lim Ho, LTD (made up name).
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
Someone I know who is involved in safety certifications wrote to me about CE label.
Note that CE label doesn't mean much on hardware piece and I would much rather trust UL or CSA.
Please rease below..
-------------------------------------------------------------
I get this question a lot from startups on where and how you get CE "certified". CE is short for Conformité Européenne(French for European Conformity). It's a sticker/symbol placed in your hardware product to let the user know that you are conforming to all directives by the European protection standards. So as a rule of thumb, if your product is marked "CE" you can freely sell your product in the European Union. This is NOT a certification mark. Please understand that.
So back to the question how do you get it? CE is a self-declaration process, meaning you as a manufacturer can put the CE logo on your product. Once it's placed on the product, it's assumed that you as a manufacturer have taken the effort to test all the relevant directives and have passed all quality and safety standards mentioned by the EU. The onus is on the manufacturer, they can slap a logo on the product and not have done any of that. Therein lies the problem of CE, where people think just because it's marked as CE means that the product is of the highest quality. Again, CE is not a Quality or Certification Mark.
In a proper workflow, if you need to affix the CE symbol on your hardware product, you need to create something known as a Technical file, which details all the product specifications, test safety reports, standards compliance reports, instructions of use etc. This document is to be produced to EU authorities when asked for or when a dispute is raised. You can be penalised if your product doesn't adhere to some standards which you may have missed. Then there is a document called Declaration of Conformity which is an undertaking mentioning that your product adheres to a list of EU directives. This is to be signed by some person in your company taking ownership saying these standards are met.
When you do put the logo on your product, please make sure that you follow the CE Logo's standard design guidelines. There is a myth floating about that the China Export logo is a similar logo found on products shipped from China and you should look at the spacing to ascertain that it's an actual CE logo. Actually, a logo like that doesn't exist. I don't think it's hard for any manufacturer to adjust the spacing on symbols to fool you if they want. Just because you see CE in a product it doesn't mean anything. Always remember that.
Note that CE label doesn't mean much on hardware piece and I would much rather trust UL or CSA.
Please rease below..
-------------------------------------------------------------
I get this question a lot from startups on where and how you get CE "certified". CE is short for Conformité Européenne(French for European Conformity). It's a sticker/symbol placed in your hardware product to let the user know that you are conforming to all directives by the European protection standards. So as a rule of thumb, if your product is marked "CE" you can freely sell your product in the European Union. This is NOT a certification mark. Please understand that.
So back to the question how do you get it? CE is a self-declaration process, meaning you as a manufacturer can put the CE logo on your product. Once it's placed on the product, it's assumed that you as a manufacturer have taken the effort to test all the relevant directives and have passed all quality and safety standards mentioned by the EU. The onus is on the manufacturer, they can slap a logo on the product and not have done any of that. Therein lies the problem of CE, where people think just because it's marked as CE means that the product is of the highest quality. Again, CE is not a Quality or Certification Mark.
In a proper workflow, if you need to affix the CE symbol on your hardware product, you need to create something known as a Technical file, which details all the product specifications, test safety reports, standards compliance reports, instructions of use etc. This document is to be produced to EU authorities when asked for or when a dispute is raised. You can be penalised if your product doesn't adhere to some standards which you may have missed. Then there is a document called Declaration of Conformity which is an undertaking mentioning that your product adheres to a list of EU directives. This is to be signed by some person in your company taking ownership saying these standards are met.
When you do put the logo on your product, please make sure that you follow the CE Logo's standard design guidelines. There is a myth floating about that the China Export logo is a similar logo found on products shipped from China and you should look at the spacing to ascertain that it's an actual CE logo. Actually, a logo like that doesn't exist. I don't think it's hard for any manufacturer to adjust the spacing on symbols to fool you if they want. Just because you see CE in a product it doesn't mean anything. Always remember that.
vincent
Well-Known Member
Wow this is all super confusing, and I am dumbfounded at all the stuff like this that is policed and certified by the companies themselves
So basically if you have enough money/years to sue them and prove they lied because your house burned down you are ok but if not you are out of luck
So basically if you have enough money/years to sue them and prove they lied because your house burned down you are ok but if not you are out of luck
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
This is indeed confusing and the market is flooded with shoddy quality batteries/chargers with 6-month or 1-yr warranty.
But it is important that people put emphasis on safety and use higher-quality batteries.
Correct. The CE mark is for the entire product. The directives that you are self certifying to typically drill down eventually to component level standards; which is what UL tests. Component level is a tricky one also, because a UL listed device is often made up of individal components.
Bottom line if there are safety implications, I'd stick with the big boys.
A little context to the most recent article on "ebike" fires in NYC.
www.bicycleretailer.com
There's going to need to be a strong education campaign. I'll bet 99% of the content in this thread would go over the head of most of the general public.
Approximately none of the recent 'e-bike fires' in New York involved an e-bike
NEW YORK (BRAIN) — Many of New York's tragic and highly visible fires have involved e-scooters and e-motorcycles. Does the distinction matter?
www.bicycleretailer.com
There's going to need to be a strong education campaign. I'll bet 99% of the content in this thread would go over the head of most of the general public.
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Great link thanks. But then the article offers this ridiculously callous and completly off base quote.
“Fritz said a quality battery pack sells for about $300, so it’s unlikely that a complete bike that includes such a battery could retail for $800.“
Rock Bottom wholesale price without shipping or hazmat fees.
“Fritz said a quality battery pack sells for about $300, so it’s unlikely that a complete bike that includes such a battery could retail for $800.“
Rock Bottom wholesale price without shipping or hazmat fees.
Yep, I tend to pretty much ignore specific dollar figures in press articles unless they define exactly the product in question ... which doesn't usually make it into an edited article that's designed for that totally ambiguous "general public". But I get the point about how much of the price of an ebike a good quality battery makes up. I know in my case (DIY point of view) using retail prices that a good quality 750w battery (shipped as hazardous goods) made up about half of a moderately powerful quality kit from Grin, and that was about 1/2 the price of a good quality (Surly) donor bike. Substitute a lower quality kit and bike and a similar battery is going to be 1/3rd or more of the total price (and likely cost).
I have to wonder when the shipping and insurance companies will really start to push back - demanding standards or hiking prices when dealing with those products that aren't certified. I also really feel for guys like Ravi who want to fight the good fight only to have one hand tied behind their backs (cost wise).
I have to wonder when the shipping and insurance companies will really start to push back - demanding standards or hiking prices when dealing with those products that aren't certified. I also really feel for guys like Ravi who want to fight the good fight only to have one hand tied behind their backs (cost wise).
Neverlost99
Member
Ok now I am terrified. My new Luna on the way. Should I charge inside the bike or take the battery out? I live on the beach so I’m wondering if Salt air going to be an issue. It seems like charging on the bike would make the battery much hotter. Any advice appreciated.
m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
It shouldn't matter (heat). I would, however, charge at low amperage on general principles. Which Luna is it?
Its never going to hurt to take the battery out of the bike and charge it separately. I personally never do. I ride bikes daily-driver style and that means with that kind of frequency, its not practical to be fussing around with pulling the pack, placing it in a bunker etc. etc. Last night I charged my 32ah Bullitt battery overnight in the bike. But I also charged at 0.20a (thats one fifth of one amp). So I was only putting out 11 watts. this morning I increased it to 1 amp for the remainder of the 12 hour charge cycle, followed by 4.5a for the last hour or so as it topped up (and ramped down the amp rate) to a peak of 58.8v at which time (which is after I finish this post) I leave for my ride across town.
I am of course also using a 12-hour manual cutoff timer but in this case I'm charging so slow the 12 hour charge time is not enough to overcharge the pack - not even close.
Bikeknit
Active Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Kansas City
They have to compete with delivery people on ebikes so probably not.
tomjasz
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- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Well I’ve stayed on this in helping a shop build a new business and that attitude can cost more than most are willing to pay. Another production fire was brought to my attention. Big name maker. House and 3 vehicles reduced to bare charcoal studs and warped steel. I now know of 4 fires in litigation and lawyers mitts. Those that keep claiming it’s just cheap batteries are kidding themselves. Until sodium or other chemistries come into play I’ll continue to consider my packs as mines. They can be handled safely but a wrong move, poor judgement, bad practices, and flippant attitude can spell disaster. Mark my words. The volcano of regulations is building pressure and will erupt sooner than later.
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