Class 3 Bikes: What Do Manufacturers Know That We Don't Know?

[tmo1620]

All I know from what I’ve just read is you Americans care way too much about the “law” lol, who cares, ride your bike and when around people slow down, not rocket science lol. Saw a cop out the other day when I was on the wife’s class 3 bike, I was at the hospital visiting the wife on lunch and he walked over to ask me how fast the bike went, I said I had just had it to 32mph on my way to the hospital, he said awesome, he was just curious because he wants to buy one but hasn’t seen many or got to talk to owners of them

 

[SwiftySanders]

At some point federal, state and local government entities will figure out they can generate additional revenue with the classification of ebikes, i.e., licenses, taxes, fees, insurance, etc.. Some other countries levy license and insurance requirements if an ebike is rated for a specific speed. Just a matter of time.

The problem is there is no money in it. Cities in California have tried it and they cancelled the programs because it costs more to administer the program than what would be gained financially. It’s more government red tape for no reason and the risks don’t justify that level of regulation. It’s too much red tape and regulation.

 

[Gmanx]

I do think k we get sucked into the weeds. In the grand scheme of things making things safer for bikers and pedestrians is end game and the biggest threat isn’t bikes and pedestrians, it’s automobile murder boxes. There needs to be federal investment in real dedicated infrastructure for pedestrians, bikes and other forms of mobility.

Otherwise we are fighting over bad design.

 

[DavidRvR]

Does not a guy say hey I think bikes should be limited not a right and privilege? Just saying.. One guys rant is another guys rights and privilege ... and he has the right to complain,, maybe stay home? would be easier?

Agreed it is a rabbit hole for sure... I believe in free speech and Stupid hurts... lol... Went on a ride today through Zion Ntl park at 35mph on the trail.. No one was on it and it was exhilarating .... Air running through my hair and had my to grand kids in tow...

Just kidding.. I was in Km not mph.. and kidding overall.. I actually find 8-10 mph is about right and I slow for anyone up front of us and tap the bell to let them know we are coming... Now I see those guys without any motors passing me at 30 mph on the same path..... I dont complain as they past to fast but again they didnt even have EBIKES.....

Same problem I see on you tube ... Bikers and Car drivers getting in fights in the streets... Cant be all the drivers of the cars can it? I think the bike riders feel they have privileges ... Be respectful and part of the problem would go away... a sticker or a limit wont fix it.. As I am the one who would make it go faster...

I was actually chased by a deer last year down the main street.. he was really on the run with antlers and all... he went about 100 feet or so but the asphalt was making it hard for him to get traction... it was fast.. Hears some noise in the bushes next to the bike path and out he came.. probably scared him... Maybe if I was doing 5mph he would have laughed at me.
Or I could have shown him my bumper sticker that said BABY ON BOARD and he would have not chased me...

Most of this is just the other end of the spectrum in discussion... One extreme to the other... Kinda hope to make one think a little is all.

 

[retiredNH]

I do think k we get sucked into the weeds. In the grand scheme of things making things safer for bikers and pedestrians is end game and the biggest threat isn’t bikes and pedestrians, it’s automobile murder boxes. There needs to be federal investment in real dedicated infrastructure for pedestrians, bikes and other forms of mobility.

Otherwise we are fighting over bad design.

This is only partially true IMHO. How many times have I seen someone jaywalking across a street while talking on their phone paying no attention to oncoming traffic? How many times have bikeriders, riding in a bike lane, blasted through an intersection without paying attention?

Bikes and pedestrians are their own worst enemies, just like car drivers are theirs. I suspect (but am no expert in this field) that most accidents, car, bike or auto, happen because of inattention. No physical design of infrastructure will solve this problem. Sadly though, I have no idea what will.

 

[Gmanx]

If you bump into another person , probably not going to be a casualty. Do that same activity in a murder box and different story. It’s not even a question - more people die from cars and people than just people. This idea that drivers were at some point attentive is make believe.

 

[SwiftySanders]

This is only partially true IMHO. How many times have I seen someone jaywalking across a street while talking on their phone paying no attention to oncoming traffic? How many times have bikeriders, riding in a bike lane, blasted through an intersection without paying attention?

Bikes and pedestrians are their own worst enemies, just like car drivers are theirs. I suspect (but am no expert in this field) that most accidents, car, bike or auto, happen because of inattention. No physical design of infrastructure will solve this problem. Sadly though, I have no idea what will.

This discounts the danger level and risk profile of each tool. No one‘s getting killed because someone jaywalks across the street. A car or truck can literally destroy whole buildings. Almost no third party is harmed by jaywalking other than maybe people having to slow down. The more dangerous the machinery the more care has to be taken to avoid harming someone else.

 

[J.R.]

All I know from what I’ve just read is you Americans care way too much about the “law” lol, who cares, ride your bike and when around people slow down, not rocket science lol. Saw a cop out the other day when I was on the wife’s class 3 bike, I was at the hospital visiting the wife on lunch and he walked over to ask me how fast the bike went, I said I had just had it to 32mph on my way to the hospital, he said awesome, he was just curious because he wants to buy one but hasn’t seen many or got to talk to owners of them

Might be a fair criticism if the thread was about riding, but the thread is about class 3 ebikes. It's like going to a drag race and saying where are the boats?

I can discuss what the laws state, but to me it isn't why I have a passion for riding. I don't ever think about all those weighty issues when the wheels are spinning There are plenty of threads about the lifestyle of ebiking.

When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking.

-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

 

[DavidRvR]

I actually do it with my wife but We do it for the Grand kids. When we are out at Zion we love to load her uo and get and early trek up into the canyon before the sun comes all the way up... I pay no attention to the sticker.. It just needs to get me and my cart with the child in it and all our water and snacks to the top.. THen back.. Great Deer, Turkey and other animals plus the river... cant beat it... That is what its a about.. Not the sticker or the fastest to the top ....with the kids I think 15mph is ptretty fast but going down hill we might hit 25 but still pretty fast at times.......Ill that matters is the memories we make. Anything less was a waste of time.

 

[Hasaf]

Might be a fair criticism if the thread was about riding, but the thread is about class 3 ebikes. It's like going to a drag race and saying where are the boats?

I think Priority got it right. Ship it as a Class 1 while including instructions for the user to change it to Class 3. That moves the onus to the user.

 

[OlePhart]

In the course of looking for a new ebike with an upright riding position, I discovered that most of the bike models on my short list are offered only as Class 3 machines. I also discovered that Class 3 ebikes are not permitted in my home state (PA). Furthermore, I discovered (and I think this is accurate but things change) that MOST states (approx. 29) do not permit Class 3 ebikes. My question is: why would the smart, astute, engineering and marketing people in these companies design and sell bikes that are not permitted in 29 states? Is there some sort of initiative afoot to change these laws? I hope so. To me it would make more sense to just establish a speed limit of 20 mph for bikes and use radar guns to catch violators.

Oh Hell, Jus 'Do What's Right', 'Mind Your Manners' and Ride it!

 

[Ken M]

Am I like the only one that views that the 3-class legislation is the reason for the huge mess we have with ebike regulations. No one seems to understand "use" vs "product definition" - the states are suppose to regulate "use" and the feds control 1st sale product definition and compliance.

A "use" regulation is setting a 20mph speed limit on a path / bike lane .... a "product definition" is setting an assist limit at 20mph (states are not supposed to screw around with the product definition of a federal safety agency regulated product for very good reasons - we don't want 50 different product definitions for 1st sale as no manufacturer wants to produce a different configuration for each state.

ALL and I mean ALL the corrent regulation issues are due to the 3-class "model legislation" lobbied to the states by People for Bikes ... they drank the koolaid and adopted the legislation and new problems come up daily.

 

[SwiftySanders]

I would rather they just standardize everything at the current 28mph or 45kmh. Thats good enough to appropriately keep up with city traffic (25mph) and racing cyclists if needed. Get rid of all the classes. I will add that cars can go twice as much as the highest speed limits and no one says a word about legality.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I would rather they just standardize everything at the current 28mph or 45kmh. Thats good enough to appropriately keep up with city traffic (25mph) and racing cyclists if needed. Get rid of all the classes. I will add that cars can go twice as much as the highest speed limits and no one says a word about legality.

Not many bike paths and MUPs in your area? Your proposition is equivalent to allowing pedestrians walk freely with the traffic. Or, letting motorcycles into national parks.

 

[AHicks]

Not many bike paths and MUPs in your area? Your proposition is equivalent to allowing pedestrians walk freely with the traffic. Or, letting motorcycles into national parks.

Doesn't seem to be an issue in Florida. They're huge on MUP's, with miles added frequently to encourage/attract vacation travel ($$$$). Still, I think speed limits on the bikes themselves, depending on how fast it will go or how it's equipped, are silly/backwards. Put a speed limit on the MUP if you must, or a section of the MUP for one reason or another (like traffic density), enforce it, and be done with it.

 

[J.R.]

That's how its supposed to work. Florida regulating Floridians. They decided for themselves how they want to handle it. When you consider they have inherent limitations of age, heat and humidity that other places might not have. Their paths are in open, flat terrain with fewer blind curves or hills; their paths are typically 'improved' and paved. I'm sure they did the right thing for themselves.

In PA the only option for the state Department of Conservation and Natural Resources to open the entire state to ebikes on paths and trails, was class 1. Other states like California have handled it differently. Local, state control of use and access is the right thing to do. We know our land and our specific issues and other locales know theirs. No one here is willing to pay for speed enforcement and without enforcement speed limits will never work.

The whole cars can do it arguement is a red herring. Do we want the same level of safety equipment and enforcement automobiles have? The price of ebiking would be 4 times what it is now.

 

[AHicks]

That's how its supposed to work. Florida regulating Floridians. They decided for themselves how they want to handle it. When you consider they have inherent limitations of age, heat and humidity that other places might not have. Their paths are in open, flat terrain with fewer blind curves or hills; their paths are typically 'improved' and paved. I'm sure they did the right thing for themselves.

In PA the only option for the state Department of Conservation and Natural Resources to open the entire state to ebikes on paths and trails, was class 1. Other states like California have handled it differently. Local, state control of use and access is the right thing to do. We know our land and our specific issues and other locales know theirs. No one here is willing to pay for speed enforcement and without enforcement speed limits will never work.

The whole cars can do it arguement is a red herring. Do we want the same level of safety equipment and enforcement automobiles have? The price of ebiking would be 4 times what it is now.

On the bold, that may have been the only way for them to get a consensus at the time, but still, the logic behind that is stupid when the idea is (should be) to get people outdoors/off their butt. With that rule, they have alienated a huge number of the potential riders who may depend on a throttle to enable them to ride (for whatever reason). I believe it was you who mentioned that the powers that be would not hesitate to hand out passes to those that need them, so all they have done is effectively increased the amount of red tape involved. This gains what in the grand scheme of things? Are there signs informing people that they can ride their class 2 bikes if they apply for/jump through the necessary hoops? My bet is not, and if that is the case, they're discouraging a large percentage of their potential user base. That's NOT performing in the best of user interest to my way of thinking. That's public property, paid for by the residents of PA. ALL state residents pay for it's maintenance, and ALL should be encouraged to use it - without that stupid class 1 rule to restrict them.

My biggest point is that the majority of e-bike rider/owners are older folks. Rules should cater to them, rather than alienate them. My opinion, FWIW.

 

[J.R.]

I believe it was you who mentioned that the powers that be would not hesitate to hand out passes to those that need them, so all they have done is effectively increased the amount of red tape involved.

It's easier than getting a handicapped parking permit. If the logic were sound, we wouldn't need designated handicapped parking spaces and permits. We should be able to say the 10 closest spaces are for people that need them and all should be well. As we know people use the spaces now that don't need them. Having a permit is a way of enforcement of the rules.

I've said it many times we wanted class 1 and 2 to be treated the same. We worked for that end. The general public said no. The powers came up with a compromise. We are a tiny minority of users, a compromise was the only option for now.

The idea isn't to get people off their butts at all cost, that would be stupid and irresponsible. The idea is to give the most access to the most people of all pursuits. At the moment we are a minority within a minority of cyclists. Our rights end where other's rights begin.

I wrote this on another thread:

I've been surprised a few times over the past couple years, with regard to access for ebikes. First it was the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources changing their mind and allowing class 1 ebikes to ride anywhere bikes are allowed in state forests, game lands and parks. It took some work to achieve this, mostly driven by hunters. PA has a lot of state land. America's first professional forester was Gifford Pinchot, he was the man behind all the national land conservation in the Theodore Roosevelt administration. At one point he was Pennsylvania Governor and he set out to make sure every resident of Pennsylvania was within 25 miles of park land. Big state, a lot of bike trails that are now open to class 1 ebikes.

Arguably more access for ebikes in state owned land than any other state. I could be wrong, but I checked the acreage and miles of trails and paths and I believe it's true.

 

[Ken M]

Not many bike paths and MUPs in your area? Your proposition is equivalent to allowing pedestrians walk freely with the traffic. Or, letting motorcycles into national parks.

Why does it seem everyone believes that if an ebike assist faster than 20mph that those riders will always be ridding at the fastest assist speed all the time. That does not happen with cars and motorcycles and it would not happen with ebikes. For some reason the EU decided to limit assist speed to 25kph/15mph which really makes no sense but then creating classes became the model for other countries and now regulations are a mess everywhere. A 250-750W ebike will never be a serious speed demon ebike but that seems to be ignored in the conversation.

 

[jabberwocky]

Arguably more access for ebikes in state owned land than any other state. I could be wrong, but I checked the acreage and miles of trails and paths and I believe it's true.

PA is actually pretty good for emtb access, since so much trail is under state control and the state allows class 1s now. Been meaning to get my emtb to Raystown or Michaux, both place I've ridden many times on my normal mtb over the years.

On the bold, that may have been the only way for them to get a consensus at the time, but still, the logic behind that is stupid when the idea is (should be) to get people outdoors/off their butt. With that rule, they have alienated a huge number of the potential riders who may depend on a throttle to enable them to ride (for whatever reason).

The problem is that the goal isn't to expand access no matter what, its to expand access without disturbing existing user groups. I often think that ebikers think they exist in a vacuum, but almost everything we want access to was built with non-powered use in mind and has numerous, large existing user groups who already use it (be they cyclists, hikers, walkers, equestrians, etc). Often members of those user groups are the ones who lobbied for and successfully got said trail built in the first place. They tend to have influence well beyond what we have. Many of those groups have a very hostile view of powered bikes, and especially hostile views of powered bikes that operate throttle only.