Class 3 Bikes: What Do Manufacturers Know That We Don't Know?

[J.R.]

PA is actually pretty good for emtb access, since so much trail is under state control and the state allows class 1s now. Been meaning to get my emtb to Raystown or Michaux, both place I've ridden many times on my normal mtb over the years.



The problem is that the goal isn't to expand access no matter what, its to expand access without disturbing existing user groups. I often think that ebikers think they exist in a vacuum, but almost everything we want access to was built with non-powered use in mind and has numerous, large existing user groups who already use it (be they cyclists, hikers, walkers, equestrians, etc). Often members of those user groups are the ones who lobbied for and successfully got said trail built in the first place. They tend to have influence well beyond what we have. Many of those groups have a very hostile view of powered bikes, and especially hostile views of powered bikes that operate throttle only.

A day at Raystown, a little off the trail for a picture.

 

[Gmanx]

People act like you can get to 20+ MPH on an analog bike right now lol. Nobody is mandating classes for them, with a lightweight carbon bike and an average rider, you could probably do 25-30 MPH! I agree 3 classes can be confusing, since Europe adopted standards to deal with a bigger mobility scene. It shouldn't be a one size fits all for the world and I like the idea of

Class 1 : eMTB
Class 2/3 : All else

The problem isn't the speed of ebikes, its that the infrastructure is built out exclusively for cars and now pedestrians, bikes and other forms of mobility are left fighting over essentially scraps. In the USA, Canada, and all first world countries, there is simply too much wealth and profits for this not to be addressed. There needs to be dedicated paths for walking/running, dedicated paths for bikes/ebikes (MULTIPLE) and there needs to be a way that you can live your life well without NEEDING an automobile.

Until the infrastructure gets addressed (the root of the problem), this arguing about classes is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

 

[Ken M]

People act like you can get to 20+ MPH on an analog bike right now lol. Nobody is mandating classes for them, with a lightweight carbon bike and an average rider, you could probably do 25-30 MPH! I agree 3 classes can be confusing, since Europe adopted standards to deal with a bigger mobility scene. It shouldn't be a one size fits all for the world and I like the idea of

Class 1 : eMTB
Class 2/3 : All else

The problem isn't the speed of ebikes, its that the infrastructure is built out exclusively for cars and now pedestrians, bikes and other forms of mobility are left fighting over essentially scraps. In the USA, Canada, and all first world countries, there is simply too much wealth and profits for this not to be addressed. There needs to be dedicated paths for walking/running, dedicated paths for bikes/ebikes (MULTIPLE) and there needs to be a way that you can live your life well without NEEDING an automobile.

Until the infrastructure gets addressed (the root of the problem), this arguing about classes is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

I agree with you on the arguing about the classes but they actually have a negative impact on adoption rate so they actually harm the chance for improved infrastructure. The funny thing is I actually believe that was the goal of the class system - the car industry doesn't want too much adoption as fewer miles in cars means reduces car and part sales. It was a natural defense mechanism of a much larger industry. For example, while Bosch is maybe the top ebike drive system producers their much more profitable car parts business dwarfs their ebike drive system sales so it's natural they would prefer to have some control of how fast adoption of ebikes happens especially if they get people out of cars (they are fine if most / all ebikes are for recreation as most class 1 ebikes are best for).

If eMTB are something that needs a separate class then they should be a separate federally regulated product by the CPSC because that is where 1st sale compliance is established (ridiculous to attempt this via the "use" regulations that the states have domain over). I have heard some say that all eMTBs should be assist limited to the EU 25kph/15mph but I just don't understand why there is not an open mind to common sense trail speed limits and going after riders that ride wrecklessly. The big monkey in the room that always get ignore is that any bike going downhill can achieve and sustain much higher speeds than an assist limit is established to try to prevent.

I just don't want to see eMTBs that are mostly for recreation use end up having a negative impact on urban mobility potential for ebikes which is simply where ebikes have transformational potential.

 

[jabberwocky]

A day at Raystown, a little off the trail for a picture.

Beautiful! Never ridden the north end by the dam. I've always ridden the allegrippis trails maybe 5 miles south. Super fun. flowy trail system with 25ish miles of trails along the lake up to the ridge above. Some absolutely brutal climbs. Like a lot of the more modern, flowy IMBA style trail, I suspect that riding it on an ebike makes it feel like it was designed with ebikes in mind. The wife and I will get up there eventually.

 

[J.R.]

Beautiful! Never ridden the north end by the dam. I've always ridden the allegrippis trails maybe 5 miles south. Super fun. flowy trail system with 25ish miles of trails along the lake up to the ridge above. Some absolutely brutal climbs. Like a lot of the more modern, flowy IMBA style trail, I suspect that riding it on an ebike makes it feel like it was designed with ebikes in mind. The wife and I will get up there eventually.

The hills there require me to take a spare pack. I cheated up top, trucking my bike up there. There are some trails to ride, but the best mtb trails are down around the lake.

I've done a lot of fishing there over the years. Deep water, big stripers!

Michaux has a lot of mixed use trails as well, but you have to be careful of the ATV's on ORV trails. Beautiful sights though. Safer on the MTB trails.

 

[jabberwocky]

The hills there require me to take a spare pack. I cheated up top, trucking my bike up there. There are some trails to ride, but the best mtb trails are down around the lake.

I've done a lot of fishing there over the years. Deep water, big stripers!

Michaux has a lot of mixed use trails as well, but you have to be careful of the ATV's on ORV trails. Beautiful sights though. Safer on the MTB trails.

Last time I rode Michaux was 7-8 years ago with 6" of snow on the ground. Challenging day! Riding there you also need to watch for the AT, which doesn't allow bikes and crosses the mtb trails in many places. Usually signed but occasionally you just need to watch for the white blazes. I've heard there are some good gravel loops there that I'd like to try as well. I have a few friends who go up there to ride gravel sometimes. Have a few loops saved on my ridewithgps account that friends sent but haven't taken the time to try it. Its on the way to visit family (dad and two brothers still live west of Philly and I get up occasionally, though not much during the pandemic).

I've done dirtfest at Raystown a few times, which usually is down at the campground on the lake, and every ride starts by climbing the road to the top, which is about a 500ft climb. You're definitely warmed up when you hit the trails.

 

[mschwett]

...with a lightweight carbon bike and an average rider, you could probably do 25-30 MPH!

not unless you're going downhill, lol. the average person can probably sustain around 150 watts of output for a reasonable duration. a professional cyclist or very fit trained amateur cyclist, perhaps 300.

that's good for maybe 17 mph. 300w (again, sustaining this is pro cyclist territory!) might get you 21. in typical condition 25 mph takes over 400 watts of energy, and 30 is off the charts.

the people who came up with the 20 mph limit for class 1/2 bikes aren't idiots. it's pretty well calibrated to match or slightly exceed the speeds that a wide range of people are able to achieve.

 

[m@Robertson]

not unless you're going downhill, lol. the average person can probably sustain around 150 watts of output for a reasonable duration. a professional cyclist or very fit trained amateur cyclist, perhaps 300.

Its more than do-able with modern equipment. I was clocked at a steady 32 mph, with a peak at 34 mph, on a road bike in the late 1980's. Not a professional racing bike but very, very close to one. 19 lbs and change for a 59cm (big) frame. Of course... I weighed 135 lbs and with an inseam of 34 and a 6 ft height I was all leg muscle and no fat. A modern carbon bike is going to be at least that fast and likely faster. You put three or four riders in a line and have them rotate being at the front and when trying hard you'll easily be able to sustain that kind of speed.

I guess it all depends on what we call an average rider. An average ebike rider hell no. An average cyclist who hasn't been softened up by electricity... hell yes.

For me, those days are long gone, but I still remember them

 

[Stefan Mikes]

not unless you're going downhill, lol. the average person can probably sustain around 150 watts of output for a reasonable duration. a professional cyclist or very fit trained amateur cyclist, perhaps 300.

that's good for maybe 17 mph. 300w (again, sustaining this is pro cyclist territory!) might get you 21. in typical condition 25 mph takes over 400 watts of energy, and 30 is off the charts.

the people who came up with the 20 mph limit for class 1/2 bikes aren't idiots. it's pretty well calibrated to match or slightly exceed the speeds that a wide range of people are able to achieve.

You mean this guy?

129.7 miles with average speed of 18.7 mph with estimated average input of 199 W. A friend of mine. (Such is his typical daily ride).

 

[J.R.]

A lot of people think cyclists can ride faster than they actually can. Short bursts and sprints maybe, but they can't sustain it for any real distance.

"The average speed for professional cyclists while traversing on flat terrain is 25-28 mph. The average amateur cyclist travels about 17-18 mph while on flat ground. For many pro athletes racing in the Tour de France, being able to maintain a fast speed on flat terrain allows them to simply stay competitive with the other athletes. It is in the climbing portions of the Tour de France that the best gain separation from the peloton."

"In the 2019 Tour de France, the athletes averaged 12.8 mph while trudging through the infamous climbs of the race."

https://www.flobikes.com/articles/6...e-bike-speed-compare-with-tour-de-france-pros

Stats are all over cycling sites. An average adult cyclist can generate between 75 to 150 watts of power for an hour. Using any online calculator that isn't enough to sustain speeds of a class 1 ebike.

 

[Ken M]

Here we are again with some trying to justify an assist limit of 20mph. Why doesn't anyone support the federal definition for a motor alone power speed of 20mph and allowing that much power (per the constraints in HR727) to continue past 20mph. This 300W or so allows slightly faster top speeds but nothing really out of the typical historic speed distribution for bikes but the "hitting the wall effect of an assist cease is eliminated."

No ebike rider would prefer the cease of assist over a 20mph power limit if they understood the federal definition vs the 3-class system definitions (states were suppose to stick to "use" regulations but just hard to get everyone on the same page as to what a "product definition" is vs what "product use" is.

 

[Gmanx]

I love how it's morphed away from the general premise - most countries are automobile centric and most issues are because of poor design and lack of infrastructure to some banal goal post moving claim about sustained average speed lol(not what I said at all)

People can bike faster than 20 MPG without the aid of an ebike, of this there is no dispute. So this thought that its a magical catch all speed laughable and evokes an old man yells at cloud rigidity.

We need to invest just as much into infrastructure for pedestrian and bikes as we have for automotives, full stop. Then we can quibble over speeds for those that like to do those things.

 

[Ken M]

I love how it's morphed away from the general premise - most countries are automobile centric and most issues are because of poor design and lack of infrastructure to some banal goal post moving claim about sustained average speed lol(not what I said at all)

People can bike faster than 20 MPG without the aid of an ebike, of this there is no dispute. So this thought that its a magical catch all speed laughable and evokes an old man yells at cloud rigidity.

We need to invest just as much into infrastructure for pedestrian and bikes as we have for automotives, full stop. Then we can quibble over speeds for those that like to do those things.

You will learn that those that support the 15mph assist limit in Europe and the 20mph assist limit in the US don't come to the table with any legit supportive data. Typically they are so worried about trail access that they ignore we need to get more people out of cars so ebikes must provide a better solution than a 20mph cease of assist can provide. I get pummeled for supporting the federal definition of a compliant "low speed electric bicycle" as just a bike as if allowing the constrained power of a definition written by a PhD Electrical engineer will have ebikes zipping around at 55mph everywhere.

 

[DavidRvR]

Until the infrastructure gets addressed (the root of the problem), this arguing about classes is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

This is not the problem....Giving the kids the American Express black card and never getting accountability.

This problem has and is the same ..Spend spend spend and add Pork and then spend some more.... I think we cut back some of the pork... How many Federal employees are there now? Look that one up... Thats your Needed money they have squandered or filtered to their Families.. Dont need More spending to fix these problems...

I agree that one size doesnt fit all... and My bike I have had over 28mph... Kinda fun .. but Wouldnt do that all the time... I tote the Grandkids behind and we average 8-11 Mph For the most part and that is just peddle assist with no pushing on my end on #2 setting.

Through the years the cars have gotten smaller and when we was in Europe they had small cars and smaller roads.. Hard to squeeze 2 cars opposite directions ...

But then I see the Utube vids of guys fighting over who was doing what wrong or whatever.. First world problems...

 

[rawlus]

The matter isn’t really about logic or emotion or what we believe constitutes a bike.
The matter is about whether we believe the land will be locally governed, that while some things are regulated federally, vast majority of things that affect our ability to go about our daily lives, are governed or regulated locally at the state, county, city, community level…. which is what makes it possible to actually have an impact as a concerned citizen by getting involved locally, getting others on your side and making the change to the things around you.

achieving what you desire in your community is more relevant than holding the rest of the nation to your version of good.

 

[Gmanx]

I'm not sure what you're talking about David but I'm talking about government spending. You don't seem to have a problem with the billions of dollars invested in infrastructure for roads for automobiles, that pedestrians are killed on every year and contribute to global climate change. You draw the line at building new mobility infrastructure? Help me understand that. Just because you don't want to go certain speeds doesn't mean we should hold everyone to that standard.

People have no problems going 50-80 MPH in murder boxes and there are 10's of thousands of deaths every year from accidents, and people are up in arms about 8 mph and less than 30 MPH with total weight of less than 500 lbs? Imagine how many pedestrians would still be alive if they were hit by 500 lbs not 5,000?

 

[Ken M]

I'm not sure what you're talking about David but I'm talking about government spending. You don't seem to have a problem with the billions of dollars invested in infrastructure for roads for automobiles, that pedestrians are killed on every year and contribute to global climate change. You draw the line at building new mobility infrastructure? Help me understand that. Just because you don't want to go certain speeds doesn't mean we should hold everyone to that standard.

People have no problems going 50-80 MPH in murder boxes and there are 10's of thousands of deaths every year from accidents, and people are up in arms about 8 mph and less than 30 MPH with total weight of less than 500 lbs? Imagine how many pedestrians would still be alive if they were hit by 500 lbs not 5,000?

It is ludicrous that many on this forum do freak out about an 8mph faster assist limit. Then they forget the much less logical ebike regulation was local level derived and the federal definition was in place 12 years earlier and was working fine in the states that recognized it.

 

[rawlus]

I'm not sure what you're talking about David but I'm talking about government spending. You don't seem to have a problem with the billions of dollars invested in infrastructure for roads for automobiles, that pedestrians are killed on every year and contribute to global climate change. You draw the line at building new mobility infrastructure? Help me understand that. Just because you don't want to go certain speeds doesn't mean we should hold everyone to that standard.

People have no problems going 50-80 MPH in murder boxes and there are 10's of thousands of deaths every year from accidents, and people are up in arms about 8 mph and less than 30 MPH with total weight of less than 500 lbs? Imagine how many pedestrians would still be alive if they were hit by 500 lbs not 5,000?

i don’t quite understand the analogy? apologies.

cars going 50mph on the road is not the same as people with pets on a path walking 4-5mph, cyclists at 5-10, and ebikes at 10-30 in mixed traffic.

most of the local regulations aren’t really about the top speed of the bike as much as it’s about managing the total range of speeds among all path users. the closer all those mixed users are to each other the inherently safer it is.

in my community you can go as fast as the bike will allow if you want to use the road. but the path has limits because of shared use. and while the paths around me actually do have a lot of mixed users (it’s NOT a deserted path where i’d be the only rider for miles), even if it were relative deserted, because it’s a public benefiting asset it should still accommodate all types of uses if so designated.

life is full of compromises. in the grand scheme of things. my complaining about not being able to go as fast as possible on a shared path with walkers, joggers, pets, babies etc would make me feel kind of petty, and first-world-problemish.

road speeds on the road fixes the issue.

 

[John from Connecticut]

If you ride safe, be cautious around other people you encounter on trails, I would not worry about bike class. Most cops and park folks don’t have a clue about ebikes or their differences. My bike is class 3, I ride where I want on streets and parks by me while not doing anything stupid to draw attention to myself. Folks worry way to much about bike classes here with very little being said about a bad encounter with the law or a ticket being issued. Enjoy your bike whatever class and ride safe. The po po have better things to worry about than an ebike on a trail somewhere.

I completely agree with your post. Way too much time, bandwidth : ) is spent on the Class of an e-bike. I've owned two e-bikes for 3 years, 8000 miles
between them. One is a Class 3 the other is a Class 2 emtb with a Speed Box Speed delimiter making it a Class 3. I ride safely, responsibly,
always yielding to trail walkers /pedestrians etc. I always slow down when approaching slower cyclists and walkers. I assume they are going to step
into my lane of travel so I stay alert for that.

I other words I don't ride like a jerk. I respect others and watch out for them. I'm not some 'Strava wannabe' Racer looking to move up
some Virtual Leader Board. All the laws, legislation, rules etc can't fix stupid.

If you'd like to alert folks as you approach and do it in a welcoming, non threatening, non jerk-like ( "Get out of my way ! )
buy a knog bell. People have actually said "Thank you" and smiled as I passed..

https://www.knog.com/product/oi-classic-large/

John

 

[DavidRvR]

I'm not sure what you're talking about David but I'm talking about government spending. You don't seem to have a problem with the billions of dollars invested in infrastructure for roads for automobiles, that pedestrians are killed on every year and contribute to global climate change. You draw the line at building new mobility infrastructure? Help me understand that. Just because you don't want to go certain speeds doesn't mean we should hold everyone to that standard.

People have no problems going 50-80 MPH in murder boxes and there are 10's of thousands of deaths every year from accidents, and people are up in arms about 8 mph and less than 30 MPH with total weight of less than 500 lbs? Imagine how many pedestrians would still be alive if they were hit by 500 lbs not 5,000?

You are correct you missed my point... We need infrastructure repair/Replacement Revamp or whatever title or description works for you.. I think its needed also... but We have a bloated system that takes enough earned cash from You/ Me and the rest. I think we have enough waste and time for accountability. Throwing more money at the problem (which the money never makes it to where the problem is,, Remember those shovel ready jobs?) ...

I could care less if you drive 5mph or 120mph ... But when you get caught breaking the law you pay to play and so on.
Murder Boxes? Lol 19,000 people die taking showers every year... No wonder french dont wash up (sarc)...Toss the tubs?
Think we agree on a the basics but not on how we get their from here.... If you get out of the city you will find a new world and a lot of roads and less traffic and lessClimate Change as you call it. Well then you add in the cow farts and I guess we are back to climate change...I agree some climates change with infrastructure with more concrete and Asphalt..

I think everyone in this age feels their opinion matters to everyone... It doesnt. Everyone feels they need to have some control over the next (HOA). Used to be a day when some things were settled the old fashioned way and they let there hands talk to each others Noses...

Seems the older i get I hear everyone crying of one thing or another like everyone should hear them or listen..Everyone has a complaint anymore and less respect.

I live outside the city sort of.. No sidewalks or street lights... I can walk run or ride down the street at anytime. I cart my grand daughter to the store or down the road and she enjoys it.... I have a major intersection 3 blocks down I avoid and when I cross it I wait for a good clearing to do it safely. We ride down to the shopping center where they have dinner and shopping.. Let the little one play in the little park or get wet as they have a water sprinkler feature..

I dont like people who think they need to rule or voice opinions and make rules because they feel people are to stupid to rule themselves ... Warning labels are for the kids some of us raised.... Phones and social media has just put people in a bad place in common decency ..

Life is short and we are going to argue about how fast an ebike goes? Or what sticker it has? Or you or anyone else wants to ride on the side of the road with a big car and not get hit? Take the side streets.. There are safer ways of doing things... and avenues of going around obstacles .... Use common sense.. I ride against traffic so I can see the cars coming.. Been hit.. Not fun..

When your life is over... Complain to whoever you see then about why they didnt come out with a class 3.5 ebike with an air ride suspension..

And remember Stupid hurts... so if you are hurt, well then...


Next thing you know... They will put signs up and you wont be able to go fast than the posted speeds.. Oh wait.

You do what is right and you would be amazed at who would follow... If people act like jerks? More people jump in and act like jerks... Just saying.