Class 3 Bikes: What Do Manufacturers Know That We Don't Know?

[retiredNH]

Interesting to me that this thread was started yesterday and already has three full pages of posts. (I only read all of the first page.)

I feel fortunate to be able to ride country trails that tend to have few other people using them. Today (Thurs.) we rode fire roads and saw no one.

Yes. I live in a rural area where the only "bike paths" are rail trails maintained by snowmobilers, so they're terrible for biking, but our back roads are wonderful. I rarely see other bikes on our rides and only a few non-aggressive cars. What we do see lots of is hills, and lakes and soon, fall colors.

 

[jabberwocky]

The answer to the OPs post is that manufacturers have decided the writing on the wall is class 1 for mountainbikes and class 2/3 for everything else and thats what they are designing/selling to. It does create problems for people in states that haven't adopted the 3 class legislation (like my home state of PA), but most of those states are probably just a matter of time.

 

[Ken M]

The answer to the OPs post is that manufacturers have decided the writing on the wall is class 1 for mountainbikes and class 2/3 for everything else and thats what they are designing/selling to. It does create problems for people in states that haven't adopted the 3 class legislation (like my home state of PA), but most of those states are probably just a matter of time.

The Americans with Disabilities Act alone will shoot down the local trail managers that don't like Class 2 throttle-assist ebikes. Compliant LSEBs with throttle-assist do not do any more harm to trails and are not a safety impact so the bias against them by local trail managers is entirely based on them viewing them as "motorized vehicles" of the past that are still banned on most natural surface paths and trails. Instead of pandering to the local decision makers people need to question their decisions to reverse these poor decisions that make people that "Class 1" is the only acceptable mountain bike class.

Hopefully all the issues with 3-class legislation is it's ultimate undoing if my petition fails.

 

[jabberwocky]

The Americans with Disabilities Act alone will shoot down the local trail managers that don't like Class 2 throttle-assist ebikes.

Assistance devices for disabled people are their own thing in the code (wheelchairs), and are (as they always have been) allowed most places. They are generally defined in such a way that they are much more restrictive than ebikes. The definition specifically says they must be "a device designed solely for use by a mobilityimpaired person for locomotion that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area". Ebikes are not solely designed for mobility impaired people.

Also note that the ADA does not apply at all to trails designed for hiking/mountainbiking/etc. Which is logical because basically no natural surface trail is suitable for wheelchair accessibility, and really the only way to make one so is to pave it.

If "I need help to get around this trail so you are required to let me ride what I want" were a thing, people would have sued for access via dirtbike/atv/whatever decades ago.

 

[Ken M]

Assistance devices for disabled people are their own thing in the code (wheelchairs), and are (as they always have been) allowed most places. They are generally defined in such a way that they are much more restrictive than ebikes. The definition specifically says they must be "a device designed solely for use by a mobilityimpaired person for locomotion that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area". Ebikes are not solely designed for mobility impaired people.

Also note that the ADA does not apply at all to trails designed for hiking/mountainbiking/etc. Which is logical because basically no natural surface trail is suitable for wheelchair accessibility, and really the only way to make one so is to pave it.

If "I need help to get around this trail so you are required to let me ride what I want" were a thing, people would have sued for access via dirtbike/atv/whatever decades ago.

I believe both indoor and outdoor use is covered by ADA and new devices like Segways have been accommodated. Isn't there a segway-way like device with off-road tires? Maybe a class 2 ebike would be less of a problem to accommodate on a trail.

My point was just to high light how ridiculous it is to have a pedal-assist class 1 and throttle-assist class 2 with the same power and speed specs. What was the point? When you start to consider that most cadence-assist models are essentially just on/off assist switches and that other parameters like heart rate and slope sensors are now being utilized the very concept of what a pedal-assist is a grey area.

I have yet to read a single response for anyone on EBR attempt to justify these 2 classes based on the only difference being the means of assist regulation. It would be simple to have a throttle-assist ebike that required crack rotation for the the throttle to function so spare me the claim that a class one is more bike-like because it requires the pedals to be used.

Then add that a 28mph assist ebike can not have a throttle to be legal while being restricted to use on infrastructure that every other vehicle has a throttle is even more illogical.

 

[AHicks]

E-bikes thought of as "assistance devices" is a VERY important thought. Same as the throttles on class 2 bikes, these bikes allow a LOT of people to get outside and off their butts. They further muddy the waters when the folks making/considering "rules" have to ponder them as real factors. The 3 class system, by itself, does not consider this at all.

 

[J.R.]

People needing an ebike other than the standard approved should contact their local parks department or Department of Conservation and Natural Resources to see if their bike can be permitted for their use. The first concession we received when we were lobbying for access was for less abled riders to get a free permit to ride. It was easy to obtain and the land managers were happy to oblige.

 

[AHicks]

People needing an ebike other than the standard approved should contact their local parks department or Department of Conservation and Natural Resources to see if their bike can be permitted for their use. The first concession we received when we were lobbying for access was for less abled riders to get a free permit to ride. It was easy to obtain and the land managers were happy to oblige.

Nice enough for sure. But to my way of thinking, I shouldn't need to jump through those hoops for every state or municipal park I ride in.

I think it would be nice if it were a senior thing. Something like showing your AARP card could/should guarantee unrestricted passage. KISS!

 

[jabberwocky]

I believe both indoor and outdoor use is covered by ADA and new devices like Segways have been accommodated. Isn't there a segway-way like device with off-road tires? Maybe a class 2 ebike would be less of a problem to accommodate on a trail.

ADA covers some powered accessibility devices, but note that its normal to limit them to walking speed (or some number that is less than class 1 ebike limits; my local park dept limits them to 10mph). I get the feeling that people on this forum hoping to use the ADA as a runaround on ebike limitations aren't interested in being limited to walking speed.

I have yet to read a single response for anyone on EBR attempt to justify these 2 classes based on the only difference being the means of assist regulation. It would be simple to have a throttle-assist ebike that required crack rotation for the the throttle to function so spare me the claim that a class one is more bike-like because it requires the pedals to be used.

Sigh. A few people have addressed this. Speed may not be different, but perception difference can be massive. I know you don't acknowledge other user groups or land managers having to manage those groups or anything but that perception difference can actually create huge issues. Trails systems and users/managers thereof have been dealing with powered vehicles (dirt bikes, atvs, etc) poaching trails for decades. Users of those trails have been trained that if you see someone motoring along, you call the cops/rangers/whatever. Its just a really hard sell with some trail systems and will likely remain so.

 

[J.R.]

Nice enough for sure. But to my way of thinking, I shouldn't need to jump through those hoops for every state or municipal park I ride in.

I think it would be nice if it were a senior thing. Something like showing your AARP card could/should guarantee unrestricted passage. KISS!

I would like to see a statewide permit. It's so frustratingly complicated. I wanted to see class 1 & 2 treated the same. We really were fortunate, over a year plus I got to meet some really good people in government. To start they just said flat out ebikes were banned, but they listened and learned and showed up in large numbers for demo rides. I also met a few frustrating closed minded people.

As @jabberwocky mentions perceptions do matter. Some people just don't want to see riders throttling along. Fair or not.

I do have a theory in this class 2 issue. No proof, just arrived at it from being involved and observing. I now see a lot of class 2 on class 1 trails.

The community doesn't want throttles. There are more of them than us, a lot more. They turn out to public meetings in force and make their wishes known. These are public spaces that rely on donations and memberships. Taxes don't pay the bills. "We have rights", they have rights. Park paths, rail trails, mups are use at your own risk venues. As long as the managers take reasonable precautions to protect the public, they can't be sued. Banning throttles is one such precaution. That is one of the toughest things to overcome. Insurance for these venues is actually cheap because there's little risk. Insurance goes up with more risk.

I don't see those class 2 riders getting ticketed or thrown off the trails. Theory: are the powers that be turning a blind eye? If they say throttles are banned, is that enough to say they took reasonable precautions? I don't know the answer. They could start enforcement at any time. They can and will if there's a problem.

 

[jabberwocky]

Personally, I think once class 1s have been normalized for a little bit (a few years) the throttle thing will become much less of an issue. Once people get used to ebikes and the idea that some vehicles have a low power motor and things are still largely ok it won't be as difficult an issue to push, at least in some venues. I anticipate real MTB trails to be no-throttle for a very long time though, just because ebikes in general remain a difficult goal and the pushback against anything motorcycle-ish will be very intense there for the forseeable future. Just IMO.

 

[retiredNH]

I think a big part of the resistance to throttles is because the speed freak outliers mostly use throttles, since it's hard to peddle many Class 3 bikes all that fast. We read all the time on this board about folks looking for the highest wattage motors possible, so they can zoom up hills with throttle only. Imagine what those same motors could do on a bike path.

So the perception of the public is very different for someone speeding along without peddling from someone speeding along while peddling furiously, and probably rightly so.

Land (park and recreation area) managers are largely no ebike users. There's not a lot of real data regarding problem riders and risks for them to make informed decisions. Is it any wonder that their decisions are arbitrary? Yet how many folks riding a path against the rules have been disciplined? I bet a very small number...

I'm so thankful that I live in an area where trails are not an issue. I have beautiful back roads going past rivers and lakes with little traffic for rides.

 

[DavidRvR]

I am one of this... be responsible and when you are not you pay the price .. never thought people worry about this stuff but I guess it comes with age... we are sitting in Zion national park.. bike has the ability to go 28mph but I never do that on the path and wouldn’t .. but I have been chased by dogs and I like the extra power.. hoe to have one that does 50mph some day.. will I use it ? Probably not .. but here is my point.. I think anyone over the age of 68 years should lose their license to drive and move about... we have public transportation and Uber if needed... I think we should limit what anyone over that age thinks or what medical treatment they should receive.. no bikes no cars no skateboards... nothing..

Now what? I can save on insurance and I won’t have to worry about a guy that’s 70 being confused and going the wrong way on the freeway.. since I would still have about 20 years before I reached that age.. we it would suck for you ..

So my point is.. glad some people are in the mode of making rules..

Obey the rules we have and you won’t have to gripe about a sticker on a an ebike..
Rant over..

Ok maybe one more thing.. i might save on medical insurance because I pay $1400 a month now.. why? I’m not sick but those over 65 are ... get my point... ride your bike and don’t worry about the next guy to much ..

 

[AHicks]

I am one of this... be responsible and when you are not you pay the price .. never thought people worry about this stuff but I guess it comes with age... we are sitting in Zion national park.. bike has the ability to go 28mph but I never do that on the path and wouldn’t .. but I have been chased by dogs and I like the extra power.. hoe to have one that does 50mph some day.. will I use it ? Probably not .. but here is my point.. I think anyone over the age of 68 years should lose their license to drive and move about... we have public transportation and Uber if needed... I think we should limit what anyone over that age thinks or what medical treatment they should receive.. no bikes no cars no skateboards... nothing..

Now what? I can save on insurance and I won’t have to worry about a guy that’s 70 being confused and going the wrong way on the freeway.. since I would still have about 20 years before I reached that age.. we it would suck for you ..

So my point is.. glad some people are in the mode of making rules..

Obey the rules we have and you won’t have to gripe about a sticker on a an ebike..
Rant over..

Ok maybe one more thing.. i might save on medical insurance because I pay $1400 a month now.. why? I’m not sick but those over 65 are ... get my point... ride your bike and don’t worry about the next guy to much ..

You're entitled to an opinion of course, but on the bold, this is a COMPLETELY inaccurate, baseless, statement. At 70, my health does not affect your insurance premium one tiny iota. I'm on Medicare, as are 99.999% of folks aged 65 and over. Ponder that idea for a moment. Maybe look into a bit and educate yourself.

I would love to use your thought though (regarding saving the insurance company's money when it comes to high risk patients), to force those who refuse to wear masks or be vaccinated to be held responsible for their hospital stay if forced into that situation. They say there's no need for either (masks or vaccinations). I say fine, so maybe you'd be willing to put your money where your mouth is as necessary? Can't help but wonder if they figure out they're "freedom" to make those decisions may not be so free after all?

And last, would love to be able to show you your thoughts here as they take your license away just because you've made it to the ripe old age of 68. It may not be until you're a bit older to realize what kind of dumb idea that is, especially when you realize "public transportation and Uber" are not viable solutions for a great deal of the residents in this country.

 

[J.R.]

I work with 70 year olds, hell I work with a 76 year old. Some of the most responsible and productive workers there are. Rural America, folks living out in the countryside where there is no uber or public transport. Men mowing their acreage lawns, women with their half acre vegetable gardens. The vast majority of bike riders on the rail trail are over 55. I've met 80+ year old riders. I guess they should leave the bike in the garage where the car used to be because they can no longer get it safely to the trails.

People think everyone's world is the same as the little corner they live in. I'm not 70 or close to it, but I'll be younger at 70 than my father was at 55.

You worked hard all your life, now lay down and die.

Rant over.

 

[DavidRvR]

You guys are just making my point... who decides? A guy that doesn’t like throttles? Or a guy that doesn’t like old people?
My post was more sarcasm than anything but it provoked thought and answers I knew I would get.. take no offense .. I’ll be 70 one day hopefully and I hope to be healthy..

What I posted was totally skewed and not how I really feel but I think it made my point... some people reality is theirs only is kinda what I am saying.. is there others? Yes but point being ... where does it stop?

again no offense was given I hope ... it only takes one guy in an HOA to ruin it for the group.. pride of ownership and responsibility needs to be taught... parents need to teach the kids right from wrong and I will bet most of you seen moms back hand when you really did it.. and she worked you over so you have some respect for those around you..

more of a thought provoking than a rant...

My father in-law is 73 and he’s as fit as a 25 year old..

But again it makes you think.. idiots come in every form and so does immaturity
But it always one man to ruin it for thousands..

Ahicks... ever think what you know or don’t know can be incorrect? You feel you are right and so do a lot of people who post.. masks.. don’t work. But you would like everyone to wear one... if you read the Global Warming post.. learn a bit..

They have a treatment for this virus that works ( I’ve personally seen it) and it wasn’t the vaccine.. but everyone who feels they are right will force it on others .. with a 99.7 % recovery for 65 year plus age group... look up the average age first and then look up top reasons they were in their .. obesity, diabetes , heart disease and so on... but yet you would like to mandate? Fat people should diet and stop being fat.. I think those who feel they need a mask? Wear 3 of them and a bag over your head .. heard it works 100%(Sarc).

thet is for another topic for sure but actually look things up and choose what is best for your family. I-MASK
look it up and open your eyes .
Don’t want to derail this convo...

 

[AHicks]

Ahicks... ever think what you know or don’t know can be incorrect? You feel you are right and so do a lot of people who post.. masks.. don’t work. But you would like everyone to wear one... if you read the Global Warming post.. learn a bit..

You believe so strongly that masks are a complete waste of time? Willing to bet the price of a hospital stay on that? Easy answer, yes or no? You either believe what you are trying to convince yourself is the truth, or you don't. Put some weight behind that call, and your wallet. Something beyond the fact you don't feel like wearing one, or dealing with this reality. Put up, or mask up.....

Meanwhile, here's a thought for you. If you believe in something, if you look hard enough, you're going to find somebody that agrees with you (proof lies in the web sites you listed).

Show me your medical degree in an area that applies and we'll talk....

 

[retiredNH]

They have a treatment for this virus that works ( I’ve personally seen it) and it wasn’t the vaccine.. but everyone who feels they are right will force it on others .. with a 99.7 % recovery for 65 year plus age group... look up the average age first and then look up top reasons they were in their .. obesity, diabetes , heart disease and so on... but yet you would like to mandate? Fat people should diet and stop being fat.. I think those who feel they need a mask? Wear 3 of them and a bag over your head .. heard it works 100%(Sarc).

This tells me a lot about your thinking, bikes or not.

 

[DavidRvR]

This tells me a lot about your thinking, bikes or not.

Probably not... I think you would wrong like a lot of things in your life ..

You have no idea what I have seen nor been around. I have a manufacturing shop and have 65 employees and love each one my kids... that virus has come through the shop on probably 4 different occasions ... I paid leave and called and checked on their families and so on... 2 months ago one of my installers caught Covid and couldn’t breath after a couple days .. chest was hurting bad .. he called me from the hospital .. they wanted to put him on a breathing machine ... he told them no and left.. I asked him where he was and he said he was at home but he was having a very difficult time breathing in his chest was really tight. I talk to his wife to get him some Chloroquine and some ivermectin and get it started. Within two days he called me back and told me that he was feeling better and would be back to work in two days.
By the way they all wear masks inside the office outback in the trucks at the customers houses. Read up on masks unless you use the right ones they do not work there might be a slight ability for them to stop a sneeze but if you were to actually measure the openings microscopically and the virus size it’s like opening your car window and trusting your air conditioner to clean the air.

so if that little post above is what it takes for you to read somebody you must read short stories and make short judgments. That tells a lot about a person

 

[J.R.]

You guys are just making my point... who decides? A guy that doesn’t like throttles? Or a guy that doesn’t like old people?
My post was more sarcasm than anything but it provoked thought and answers I knew I would get.. take no offense .. I’ll be 70 one day hopefully and I hope to be healthy..

What I posted was totally skewed and not how I really feel but I think it made my point... some people reality is theirs only is kinda what I am saying.. is there others? Yes but point being ... where does it stop?

again no offense was given I hope ... it only takes one guy in an HOA to ruin it for the group.. pride of ownership and responsibility needs to be taught... parents need to teach the kids right from wrong and I will bet most of you seen moms back hand when you really did it.. and she worked you over so you have some respect for those around you..

more of a thought provoking than a rant...

My father in-law is 73 and he’s as fit as a 25 year old..

But again it makes you think.. idiots come in every form and so does immaturity
But it always one man to ruin it for thousands..

Ahicks... ever think what you know or don’t know can be incorrect? You feel you are right and so do a lot of people who post.. masks.. don’t work. But you would like everyone to wear one... if you read the Global Warming post.. learn a bit..

They have a treatment for this virus that works ( I’ve personally seen it) and it wasn’t the vaccine.. but everyone who feels they are right will force it on others .. with a 99.7 % recovery for 65 year plus age group... look up the average age first and then look up top reasons they were in their .. obesity, diabetes , heart disease and so on... but yet you would like to mandate? Fat people should diet and stop being fat.. I think those who feel they need a mask? Wear 3 of them and a bag over your head .. heard it works 100%(Sarc).

thet is for another topic for sure but actually look things up and choose what is best for your family. I-MASK
look it up and open your eyes .
Don’t want to derail this convo...

All that gets into rights and privileges. I have strong beliefs in those areas, but I'm not willing to go down that rabbit hole on an ebike forum.