Class 3 Bikes: What Do Manufacturers Know That We Don't Know?

[Art Deco]

Ask yourselves why Class 3 does not allow throttle-assist. Is that logical?

Has anyone seen any data from People for Bikes justifying the parsing of assist speeds by just 8mph? Class 3 was only created to have a product definition in harmonization with the EU "speed pedelec" definition (it was never about safety or clarity as claimed it was only market desired by a few drive system manufacturers that just so happen to be huge car part producers).

I do support performance limits to allow and ebike to be ridden every bikes are ridden. That is what the federal definition in HR727 was intended to enable. That is what the congressional testimony shows. Sadly an bike advocacy group (being paid by industry lobby money) drafted a poorly conceived class system. Their main goal was to have class 3 harmonized with the EU speed pedelec definition and the other two classes we just an afterthought to make it look as if they really did something because they knew they would not be successful pushing legislation not allowing throttles. The 3-Class system really needs to go into the legislative trash bin but until more of us start to push against it it may end up the replacing the HR727 Low Speed Electric Bicycle definition that is simply and elegant and far better.

This is exactly why I objected to starting a new thread on this subject. You are so thrilled by your class 3 speeds that you come across as either blind or indifferent to what the consequences to all riders will be of fighting a losing battle for 8 additional mph. Thread ignored.

 

[Ken M]

This is exactly why I objected to starting a new thread on this subject. You are so thrilled by your class 3 speeds that you come across as either blind or indifferent to what the consequences to all riders will be of fighting a losing battle for 8 additional mph. Thread ignored.

Huh. I've never advocated Class 3....I don't like the class system because the it has made a mess of use regulations.

Have you read the federal definition. It limits the motor power alone to only allow enough power to sustain a 170lb rider at 20mph on a level surface (interestingly that is around 340W of sustained motor or human power on an upright bike). I have a few lights rated at that power level. That is not crazy fast and allows a handicapped person the right to own a throttle-assist ebike and achieve a speed up to 20mph using the motor alone. None of us should object to that. Right?

The CPSC has clarified (per request from People for Bikes) that that power level can continue to be provided above 20mph so long as the additional speed generated is by rider power/effort. So lets assume a good rider can sustain an additional 250W (ie a total of 250+340 or 590W). Because of the impact of aerodynamic drag above 20mph that results in a speed of 24.7mph but that a high level of power for a rider to sustain. Realistically lets drop that rider power to 150W so the total is now 490W. That results in 23.2mph.

Now everyone keeps saying I'm advocating crazy speeds but this is what I'm advocating because they don't take the time to understand the relationship between power and speed. Certainly the local trail managers and politicians don't because they would miss an episode of Duck Dynasty or Keeping up with the Kardashians (I'm politically balanced).

By the way that is why most people that buy an EU rated 250W class 3 / speed pedelec have to really work hard to achieve 28mph (in fact most need a bit of downhill to do so).

If you read and understood this data it become pretty clear that it made no sense to create classes when the definition in HR727 limited motor alone to 20mph and good riders may sustain a speed under 25mph with significant effort. All the confusion to claim that states needed ot parse this for "use" ... that is total BS. It just is and I'm not trying to insult anyone but they don't understand the relationship between power and speed.

 

[J.R.]

Class 3 Bikes: What Do Manufacturers Know That We Don't Know?​

Ebikes seem to be mostly hybrid commuter bikes or eMTB. There are fatbikes, and drop bar bikes. Those often will somewhat fall into commuters and gravel bikes. Most eMTB are class 1 and commuters class 3. Probably makes financial sense to manufactures. Certainly they look to the more mature market of Europe for trends.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Certainly they look to the more mature market of Europe for trends.

Not necessarily. From what I can see in Europe, the S-Pedelecs (45 km/h e-bikes) are rare here. The most of e-bikers ride the 25 km/h e-bikes here. If I can guess, the American market needs the Class 3 for commuting fast over long distances found there. (Moreover, a 25 km/h road e-bike feels somewhat ridiculous).

 

[Ken M]

Not necessarily. From what I can see in Europe, the S-Pedelecs (45 km/h e-bikes) are rare here. The most of e-bikers ride the 25 km/h e-bikes here. If I can guess, the American market needs the Class 3 for commuting fast over long distances found there. (Moreover, a 25 km/h road e-bike feels somewhat ridiculous).

The adoption of S-pedelecs is probably limited by the extra mandated costs of registration and liability insurance. Add to that the manufactures want an additional $1000 for what is just a programming change.

 

[Rickman1]

At some point federal, state and local government entities will figure out they can generate additional revenue with the classification of ebikes, i.e., licenses, taxes, fees, insurance, etc.. Some other countries levy license and insurance requirements if an ebike is rated for a specific speed. Just a matter of time.

 

[Ken M]

At some point federal, state and local government entities will figure out they can generate additional revenue with the classification of ebikes, i.e., licenses, taxes, fees, insurance, etc.. Some other countries levy license and insurance requirements if an ebike is rated for a specific speed. Just a matter of time.

I fully agree and have been claiming that was one of the "unspoken goals" of the 3-class legislation because that is exactly what Europe did to S-pedelecs which Class 3 harmonizes with. Most on EBR just label me a conspiracy theorist and a trouble-maker.

I understand the government's zeal for revenue but given that ebikes can't really replace a car for most people in the US (they can only supplement car ownership for most of us) the added cost will just have a negative impact on the adoption rate for urban mobility where the ebikes will be on public infrastructure. Regardless of what anyone's personal view of climate change is there are other reasons we should all want to see the adoption rate of ebikes for transportation use be as high as possible - they help improve our health, connect communities, reduce urban congestion, boost the economy, strengthen our nation and protect the planet.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The adoption of S-pedelecs is probably limited by the extra mandated costs of registration and liability insurance. Add to that the manufactures want an additional $1000 for what is just a programming change.

It is not for the programming change. S-Pedelecs undergo Type Approval in Europe, therefore they need to be equipped with:

• 4-piston high quality hydraulic brakes
• Automotive-grade (certified) all-day headlight with low and high beam for the night (check the price of Supernova M99 Pro, so you'll understand the cost)
• Rear light with the STOP indicator
• Non-removable lit number plate holder
• Mandatory display that cannot be removed, with speed value on every screen. Removing the display will make the e-bike useless. (Specialized uses a special version of the TCD-w display, the "L1e" version in their S-Pedelec).
• Horn
• Rear-view mirror
• Certified tyres
• Additionally, S-Pedelecs are equipped with Speed motors, which are optimized for speed.

Every and single S-Pedelec needs to be equipped with VIN and be individually approved. The cost is high, and no wonder the manufacturer needs to reimburse the cost. Now, it is not only registration and liability insurance. You need to be doing MOT. You need to carry a driving license with you (I'm exempted from that requirement). You need to wear the helmet (it needs to be a motorcycle helmet in the UK). And -- you are not allowed to ride MUPs and bike paths.

You need to be as crazy as I am to ride a Speed Pedelec in Europe. At least, I'm typically faster riding with traffic than other poor souls on bike paths (these are not the best in our country).

See the specs of an S-Pedelec similar to what I'm riding:

Turbo Vado 6.0

Kiedy postanowiliśmy dodać kolejny model do rodziny Turbo, naszym motto było "kto ma szybki rower, temu nigdy nie brakuje czasu". Dlatego chcieliśmy mie...

www.specialized.com

See the componentry.

 

[J.R.]

It is not for the programming change. S-Pedelecs undergo Type Approval in Europe, therefore they need to be equipped with:

• 4-piston high quality hydraulic brakes
• Automotive-grade (certified) all-day headlight with low and high beam for the night (check the price of Supernova M99 Pro, so you'll understand the cost)
• Rear light with the STOP indicator
• Non-removable lit number plate holder
• Mandatory display that cannot be removed, with speed value on every screen. Removing the display will make the e-bike useless.
• Horn
• Rear-view mirror
• Certified tyres
• Additionally, S-Pedelecs are equipped with Speed motors, which are optimized for speed.

Every and single S-Pedelec needs to be equipped with VIN and be individually approved. The cost is high, and no wonder the manufacturer needs to reimburse the cost. Now, it is not only registration and liability insurance. You need to be doing MOT. You need to carry a driving license with you (I'm exempted from that requirement). You need to wear the helmet (it needs to be a motorcycle helmet in the UK). And -- you are not allowed to ride MUPs and bike paths.

You need to be as crazy as I am to ride a Speed Pedelec in Europe. At least, I'm typically faster riding with traffic than other poor souls on bike paths (these are not the best in our country).

See the specs of an S-Pedelec similar to what I'm riding:

Turbo Vado 6.0

Kiedy postanowiliśmy dodać kolejny model do rodziny Turbo, naszym motto było "kto ma szybki rower, temu nigdy nie brakuje czasu". Dlatego chcieliśmy mie...

www.specialized.com

See the componentry.

Thank you for that clear description. At anytime a state can pass new law and further regulation. Some states require registration and insurance for mopeds and some don't. States have the autonomy to decide these things for themselves. At anytime a state legislature could pass a law that all bicycles and ebikes need to be registered and tagged. When I was a kid some municipalities (within the state) required a person to register a bike and pay a yearly fee. It was similar to getting a dog license.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

When I was a kid some municipalities (within the state) required a person to register a bike and pay a yearly fee. It was similar to getting a dog license.

Funny that you mention that. It was before my times but there was a time in Poland when all bikes carried a number plate (1920-1954). No number plates but registration 1955-1964.

 

[Rickman1]

Thank you for that clear description. At anytime a state can pass new law and further regulation. Some states require registration and insurance for mopeds and some don't. States have the autonomy to decide these things for themselves. At anytime a state legislature could pass a law that all bicycles and ebikes need to be registered and tagged. When I was a kid some municipalities (within the state) required a person to register a bike and pay a yearly fee. It was similar to getting a dog license.

Yes, I remember as a young teenager I rode a modified Schwinn Stingray. Bike licenses were a requirement. They actually had bike license plates. I think I paid for a license for one year and that was it. I put a "custom" plate on after that. I actually got pulled over several times over the years to have my bike license checked and was cited for having a gooseneck that was too long. Officer said it made my bike unsafe. Oh, the good ol' days. Today I am not aware of a bike license requirement here. But I'm sure with the popularity of ebikes increasing it's just a matter of time.

 

[TrailSeeker]

Certified tyres

you mean they actually make Ebike rated tyres? I didn't know that.

 

[ruffruff]

you mean they actually make Ebike rated tyres? I didn't know that.

They sure do. chains, front suspension forks and other parts can be ebike rated too.

 

[rich c]

Yes, I remember as a young teenager I rode a modified Schwinn Stingray. Bike licenses were a requirement. They actually had bike license plates. I think I paid for a license for one year and that was it. I put a "custom" plate on after that. I actually got pulled over several times over the years to have my bike license checked and was cited for having a gooseneck that was too long. Officer said it made my bike unsafe. Oh, the good ol' days. Today I am not aware of a bike license requirement here. But I'm sure with the popularity of ebikes increasing it's just a matter of time.

Pekin, IL has eBike registration. https://local.nixle.com/alert/7977526/

 

[J.R.]

Hershey Pennsylvania requires a bicycle license. I don't know how well it works, but if it works as its proposed, I would be for it.

Bicycle licenses are required by Township ordinance. The cost is $1.00. A record of the license is maintained by the Police Department. When a licensed bicycle is stolen and recovered, the owner can be identified through the license and the bicycle can be returned to the owner.

Bicycle licenses are available at the Police Department, Municipal Building, and Recreation Center. The bicycle license application requests the color, make, size, and serial number of the bike.

Proceeds from the bicycle license sales are donated to the Jonathan Eshenour Memorial Fund for the development of bicycle paths in Derry Township.

Bicycle Licenses - Derry Township

Bicycle licenses are required by Township ordinance. The cost is $1.00. A record of the license is maintained by the Police Department. When a licensed bicycle is stolen and recovered, the owner can be identified through the license and the bicycle can be returned to the owner. Bicycle licenses...

www.derrytownship.org

 

[Ken M]

You are correct...I stand corrected on the what is required to be a legal S-pedelec in the EU.

It is not for the programming change. S-Pedelecs undergo Type Approval in Europe, therefore they need to be equipped with:

• 4-piston high quality hydraulic brakes
• Automotive-grade (certified) all-day headlight with low and high beam for the night (check the price of Supernova M99 Pro, so you'll understand the cost)
• Rear light with the STOP indicator
• Non-removable lit number plate holder
• Mandatory display that cannot be removed, with speed value on every screen. Removing the display will make the e-bike useless.
• Horn
• Rear-view mirror
• Certified tyres
• Additionally, S-Pedelecs are equipped with Speed motors, which are optimized for speed.

Every and single S-Pedelec needs to be equipped with VIN and be individually approved. The cost is high, and no wonder the manufacturer needs to reimburse the cost. Now, it is not only registration and liability insurance. You need to be doing MOT. You need to carry a driving license with you (I'm exempted from that requirement). You need to wear the helmet (it needs to be a motorcycle helmet in the UK). And -- you are not allowed to ride MUPs and bike paths.

You need to be as crazy as I am to ride a Speed Pedelec in Europe. At least, I'm typically faster riding with traffic than other poor souls on bike paths (these are not the best in our country).

See the specs of an S-Pedelec similar to what I'm riding:

Turbo Vado 6.0

Kiedy postanowiliśmy dodać kolejny model do rodziny Turbo, naszym motto było "kto ma szybki rower, temu nigdy nie brakuje czasu". Dlatego chcieliśmy mie...

www.specialized.com

See the componentry.

Honestly great information on the requirements for a S-pedelec. Interestingly the class 3 45kph ebikes here do not require anything different than class 1 & 2 except a speedometer.

 

[m@Robertson]

There is just one thing you need to understand. If you did happen to hit a pedestrian you are riding a unlicensed illegal vehicle and that could put some very serious liability on yourself. Just be aware of that risk.

Only if you are operating in an unsafe manner enabled by the 'additional features' lets call them, of your vehicle. This is the concept of 'materiality'. As I understand it - and I could easily be wrong - in the EU if you are riding an 'illegal' vehicle then you are automatically at fault and liable in the case of some sort of mishap. Materiality is irrelevant. Thats there, not here in the USA.

Here in the USA the illegality has to be 'material' to the mishap. So if you are going 5 mph, you have a 6kw Lightning Rods motor on your ebike and you get hit by a truck while in the bike lane, its not going to affect the outcome of the accident report. Your speed was within the law and the motor was not in any way material to the accident. Or... you are going 5 mph on the same bike and a drunk falls out of a bush and you run him over. Whatever comes of that... the motor will not play into the police report so long as your story is believed and the forensic evidence backs up your side of the story.

I have a personal example that is very similar. In late 2017 I was going 15 mph in a designated bike lane when an inattentive motorist T-boned me. The bike was a Specialized Stump FSR with a 3kw Cyclone mated to a 52v battery. Nobody cared. Not the cops. Not the driver's insurance company (who paid for the bike with its improvements - and they had receipts for the motor stating its nature in itemized technical detail) and not the police, who found the motorist was the proximate cause of the accident. The police knew what kind of bike it was (the officer who took my statement discussed it with me) and in fact the police very kindly took my bike from the scene of the accident to my home and put it in my side yard as I left the scene in an ambulance. This is a major metropolitan area with over a half-million residents and not, like... Mayberry or Springfield.

So when all this Fear and Doubt is sowed on the internet... its just the internet. I shake my head and move on.

Oh and also the 3-class system is now active in 36 states. Every year it spreads further. With bike sales being what they are, this is only going to go one way in the US. No legislature anywhere is going to rain on the ebike parade ... with one shining exception: The People's Republic of Newyorkistan.

 

[Ken M]

Only if you are operating in an unsafe manner enabled by the 'additional features' lets call them, of your vehicle. This is the concept of 'materiality'. As I understand it - and I could easily be wrong - in the EU if you are riding an 'illegal' vehicle then you are automatically at fault and liable in the case of some sort of mishap. Materiality is irrelevant. Thats there, not here in the USA.

Here in the USA the illegality has to be 'material' to the mishap. So if you are going 5 mph, you have a 6kw Lightning Rods motor on your ebike and you get hit by a truck while in the bike lane, its not going to affect the outcome of the accident report. Your speed was within the law and the motor was not in any way material to the accident. Or... you are going 5 mph on the same bike and a drunk falls out of a bush and you run him over. Whatever comes of that... the motor will not play into the police report so long as your story is believed and the forensic evidence backs up your side of the story.

I have a personal example that is very similar. In late 2017 I was going 15 mph in a designated bike lane when an inattentive motorist T-boned me. The bike was a Specialized Stump FSR with a 3kw Cyclone mated to a 52v battery. Nobody cared. Not the cops. Not the driver's insurance company (who paid for the bike with its improvements - and they had receipts for the motor stating its nature in itemized technical detail) and not the police, who found the motorist was the proximate cause of the accident. The police knew what kind of bike it was (the officer who took my statement discussed it with me) and in fact the police very kindly took my bike from the scene of the accident to my home and put it in my side yard as I left the scene in an ambulance. This is a major metropolitan area with over a half-million residents and not, like... Mayberry or Springfield.

So when all this Fear and Doubt is sowed on the internet... its just the internet. I shake my head and move on.

Oh and also the 3-class system is now active in 36 states. Every year it spreads further. With bike sales being what they are, this is only going to go one way in the US. No legislature anywhere is going to rain on the ebike parade ... with one shining exception: The People's Republic of Newyorkistan.

That is really interesting information on liability and it does make sense. Riding a non-compliant ebike should not mean you are automatically responsible for an accident but you are correct that is what some of the internet legal advice says. Your detail is very robust on this and hopefully it helps riders not be so fearful of riding a class 3 ebike on a sidewalk at a rational speed.

As for the adoption of the 3-class legislation by 36 states I still don't think it will matter if there is an interestate commerce issue as I believe there is. We'll see but the federal definition of a "low speed electric bicycle" is simply superior to parsing it into 3 classes (all of which are more stringent which is not supposed be allowed unless driven by real safety needs or data ... neither of which is the case). In reality NY never really had an ebike ban...some perceived that because a few local idiots there wanted to call them a motorized vehicle (that mindset is still a problem in many local policies).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

you mean they actually make Ebike rated tyres? I didn't know that.

Specialized uses "Electrak 2.0 Armadillo w/ Gripton compound" tyres on the 6.0. These tyres are listed in the EU Certificate of Conformity for the e-bike model. If I can remember correctly, there even is a label under the downtube listing the tyre type and appropriate inflation figures for given rider's weight.

Electraks are very much puncture resistant. They are slick tyres for low rolling resistance but the road grip even at low temps (above the freezing point) and on the wet is fantastic. The only issue is these tyres are only good for paved roads and do on gravel; forget riding any softer surface on them.

Interesting feature is these tyres are exactly 2" (51 mm) in size while other manufacturers have standardized on 50 mm as two-inch nominal.

Tyres & Tubes | Specialized.com

www.specialized.com

Regarding the discussion re material vs immaterial: It is certainly good to have top-end TRP Zurich brakes or STOP indicator on a fast e-bike intended for riding with traffic. Rear mirror goes without saying.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Search "class 3". Do we need another thread on this?

Interesting to me that this thread was started yesterday and already has three full pages of posts. (I only read all of the first page.)

I feel fortunate to be able to ride country trails that tend to have few other people using them. Today (Thurs.) we rode fire roads and saw no one.