Barbecue grill for a safe charging station?

[Taylor57]

That's a judgement call.

I'd say that unless the battery cells are from Panasonic, LG, or Samsung you should junk the batteries and the bike if you can't replace them with something safer. The vast majority of e-bike battery fires are from no-name batteries or charger systems, even though those probably represent a minority of e-bikes in today's fleet. Just sticking to products from well-known brands probably increases your safety more than any physical battery safety measures you might be taking or should be taking. Ideally you should be doing both.

I'd also say that if you drop the battery or have a bad crash on the bike it would be very wise to replace that battery.

"The vast majority of ebike fires are from no-name batteries" reminds me of one of my favorite lines about statistics. "87% of all statistics are made up on the spot"

Just sayin...

 

[Roamers]

As a matter of curiosity, what do you have for batteries/charger that this is a concern? Never considered that as an issue when I got our ebikes.

I have 400 amp-hrs of lithium ion batteries in my van. Many vans have double that.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

"The vast majority of ebike fires are from no-name batteries" reminds me of one of my favorite lines about statistics. "87% of all statistics are made up on the spot"

I'll stick to it, though. E-bike fires appear to be fairly common and are growing more common, but what is striking is that so many of the e-bike fires seem to involved "modified" batteries, homemade bikes, or no-name bike models. You'd hear about it if e-bikes from Specialized, R&M, Stromer, or even Pedego or Rad were catching on fire with any significant frequency at all -- and I suspect there are a lot more Rads on the road than homebrew bikes in 2022.

Also:

Letter From America: Bike Shop Fire a Warning About e-Bike Battery Safety

Mike Fritz is one of the best informed engineers in the US on the current state of e-bike batteries on the market. Read more here.

thelatzreport.com.au

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I'd also throw this out: it is recommended to have a class D dry powder fire extinguisher for lithium-ion battery fires. Such fire extinguishers are not cheap and can cost over $1000. So if you have a serious fleet of e-bikes or are doing home-brew work or repacking your batteries it would be wise to have such a fire extinguisher handy.

 

[vincent]

All of my batteries are brand name, espin, ride1up, tern, emv etc but I still think charging them in something that can contain it somewhat is a good idea

I am well aware of all the other issues here but that is not really helping with suggestions of possible containment

All of these batteries are riding around on our bikes getting vibrated etc, 6-7 years of that on any battery makes me worry some

Hoping Tom chimes in here, he has good battery charging setups

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Best bet would either be one of those charging bags or a concrete flower pot with a good-sized piece of tile (or a concrete block) as a lid. Leave a tiny gap for the power cord. Get the smallest flower pot that will hold your battery with reasonable clearance. Charge on the concrete floor of your garage far away from anything flammable or the walls.

 

[vincent]

Can you suggest a bag, I have not seen any bags that are supposed to be strong enough for 14ah batteries

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Can you suggest a bag, I have not seen any bags that are supposed to be strong enough for 14ah batteries

I've used this bag for a Pedego 700wh battery and 500wh Bosch Powerpacks:

https://www.amazon.com/FLASLD-Lipo-Battery-Safe-Explosionproof/dp/B09Q6FPGZ5/ref=sr_1_17?keywords=lipo%2Bbattery%2Bbag&qid=1655736482&sr=8-17&th=1

I've also used a Hoverboard bag that Court recommended about five years ago, can't find any source online any longer.

 

[m@Robertson]

I'll stick to it, though. E-bike fires appear to be fairly common and are growing more common,

I'll push back on the 'fairly common' contention. They're not. That guy who made a point of documenting every fire he could find only managed to find 49 of them in 3 1/2 years. But if you look closely at his articles he's not documenting just fires, and he's drawing from a worldwide pool of news articles. Given the number of ebikes in daily use - especially outside of US borders - thats rare, not common. Also considering the increase in the ebike population, I'd want to see some better documentation before accepting that fires are growing more common relative to the number of people charging batteries that is also going up and up.

With that said, its fairly common knowledge in ebike builder circles that cheap Chinese cells, shoddy BMS' or marginally competent home builds are found in the vast majority of ebike fires. Thats not to say only manufactured big-name packs are the solution. They are not. But quality cells and packs built by experienced vendors with sterling reputations can be had, so long as the buyer is not being a dumbass and buying the cheapest pack they can find on AliExpress. The battery should be the last thing people try to save money on, but since doing it right is expensive, you see a lot of justification for why someone who hasn't burned their house down yet bought smart from that online Asian seller.

For you folks looking for an economical solution... look to a US Army surplus M548 (20mm aka 'tall 40mm') ammunition can. Steel. Thick, too. Weighs about 20 lbs on its own and has a lid that clamps down on two sides, with a reinforcing rod spot welded diagonally to each side. Drill a hole for the power cord. Drill another on the opposite corner for flow thru ventilation. The 1000 degrees or so that will be generated by a pack fire will be contained in this. Trying to tamp down the fire is a waste of time once it really gets going.

Amazon.com: Ammo Can Military Surplus Metal Large 20mm 40mm - Grade 2 : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com: Ammo Can Military Surplus Metal Large 20mm 40mm - Grade 2 : Sports & Outdoors

amzn.to

 

[m@Robertson]

Something worth mentioning: If you want to contain a lithium-ion fire, sure the classroom instruction says to use a chemical fire extinguisher. However that doesn't take into account the reality of a thermal runaway explosion that dozens or even hundreds of individual cells will produce. No handheld extinguisher will contain that ongoing consecutive and additionally concurrent series of fires and explosions (not one fire).

So how do BEV manufacturers instruct emergency responders to fight such a fire?

With water. From the current Tesla Model S Emergency Responders Guide:

First, the contention that lithium emits gas when watered is true, but do some research and you'll find 18650 and 21700 cells have too little lithium in them for this to be an issue, even when a whole pack goes up. Next, water will not put out a battery fire. But it will prevent thermal runaway on the adjacent cells which have not yet gone up in flames. The individual cells that are burning will burn out (actually the water *can* extinguish if enough is used as noted above, but for a battery pack and a garden hose, thats unlikely). The fire, when water is used to cool it, will not spread if water is applied.

Here's one start to finish. A nice big Shark pack. Managed with water. This looks bad but think of what happens without this control.

If you have any trouble imagining the benefit of water cooling, watch this jackass panic and lose his opportunity to get the bike out of the house.

 

[vincent]

That bag is super cheap, guess it would be worth trying

or the army cans, i need to set up something

 

[AHicks]

I'll stick to it, though. E-bike fires appear to be fairly common and are growing more common, but what is striking is that so many of the e-bike fires seem to involved "modified" batteries, homemade bikes, or no-name bike models. You'd hear about it if e-bikes from Specialized, R&M, Stromer, or even Pedego or Rad were catching on fire with any significant frequency at all -- and I suspect there are a lot more Rads on the road than homebrew bikes in 2022.

Also:

Letter From America: Bike Shop Fire a Warning About e-Bike Battery Safety

Mike Fritz is one of the best informed engineers in the US on the current state of e-bike batteries on the market. Read more here.

thelatzreport.com.au

On this, we are in total agreement.

 

[tomjasz]

I don’t really want to spend $1000 on a big fireproof box so any other suggestions

I will change the title to try and make it more clear

A 40mm Ammo can, ceramic fabric lined, gasket removed, holes drilled and rubber grommet lined, and a pair of welders gloves. Smoke detector in close proximity and always monitored. Bob’s your uncle!

 

[tomjasz]

That bag is super cheap

Guaranteed to fail. A proper fire blanket is at least $500. I can’t access photos on my iPad but I’ve posted pictures several times. PM and I’ll send photos tomorrow.

 

[vincent]

I knew that bag was too good to be true

Is anyone setting up the ammo cans like this and selling them? I would like to buy a couple

 

[GGinMP]

The battery in my Specialized SL is built into the frame. Does that mean I now need to build a bunker to safely charge it?

 

[ChezCheese:)]

Something worth mentioning: If you want to contain a lithium-ion fire, sure the classroom instruction says to use a chemical fire extinguisher. However that doesn't take into account the reality of a thermal runaway explosion that dozens or even hundreds of individual cells will produce. No handheld extinguisher will contain that ongoing consecutive and additionally concurrent series of fires and explosions (not one fire).

So how do BEV manufacturers instruct emergency responders to fight such a fire?

With water. From the current Tesla Model S Emergency Responders Guide:
View attachment 126498

First, the contention that lithium emits gas when watered is true, but do some research and you'll find 18650 and 21700 cells have too little lithium in them for this to be an issue, even when a whole pack goes up. Next, water will not put out a battery fire. But it will prevent thermal runaway on the adjacent cells which have not yet gone up in flames. The individual cells that are burning will burn out (actually the water *can* extinguish if enough is used as noted above, but for a battery pack and a garden hose, thats unlikely). The fire, when water is used to cool it, will not spread if water is applied.

Here's one start to finish. A nice big Shark pack. Managed with water. This looks bad but think of what happens without this control.

If you have any trouble imagining the benefit of water cooling, watch this jackass panic and lose his opportunity to get the bike out of the house.

I don't think the poor guy deserves being labeled a jackass. I notice that it is 6:30am on New Year's Eve morning, and he has only his underpants on and no shoes. Probably just woke up. You say he "lost his opportunity to get the bike out of the house", but it looks to me like he is aware of how dangerous exploding batteries can be. He slipped and went down hard, and then the battery started spewing burning sparks, shrapnel or napalm at him, and most of his body is completely unprotected. God forbid it happens to any of us!

It is definitely an eye-opener about how quickly these batteries can become engulfed in flame and explode.

The other video showing how the battery keeps igniting as each cell bursts into flame, despite having water right on it, is also very enlightening.

 

[6zfshdb]

I don’t really want to spend $1000 on a big fireproof box so any other suggestions

I will change the title to try and make it more clear

I've been eyeing this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07S9SFCB8/?coliid=IXVFVXUMOZ6Y9&colid=1KERB770YRAW3&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

It isn't cheap and not perfect but a bit safer than a bag IMO. It can also be used to store flammable liquids when not charging.

I find it interesting that some take great care while charging their batteries but throw them in the trunk or the back seat of a car to transport. Battery fires are caused by physical damage as well as from charging accidents.

I carry mine in a padded bag inside a shock resistant foam lined case:



I put the battery and padded bag inside a pannier when carrying a spare on the bike. I use a piece of clothing in the pannier as added padding in case of a spill.

Overkill? Perhaps, but as the old saying goes, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

[m@Robertson]

The other video showing how the battery keeps igniting as each cell bursts into flame, despite having water right on it, is also very enlightening.

Imagine what it would have done without the water. Thats actually why I showed the two vids side by side. The first guy was able to stand right next to it and keep that water going to minimize the disaster. Not likely to be possible if indoors of course.

 

[ChezCheese:)]

Yes, but I think luck was part of the scenario there, because while he managed to keep the flames doused (and probably also kept the interiors cells cooler), it could have been a difference in the batteries themselves. How they were put together or arranged inside, I dunno. In the inside scenario, the flames seemed to be further along from the getgo, by the time Captain Underpants discovered it.

Also, did you see how filled with noxious smoke the room became? And how quickly! Smoke is what kills people in house fires, more than burns.