Barbecue grill for a safe charging station?

[Taylor57]

And then theres this:

Tesla spontaneously catches fire while sitting in California junkyard

A Tesla Model S spontaneously burst into flames after sitting in a California junkyard for three weeks. Firefighters had to use 4,500 gallons of water to put the fire out earlier this month.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I'm sure I don't understand all that, but it says in 2019 there were 119 ebike fires among about 250,000,000 ebikes in China. Thats one fire for every two million one hundred thousand ebikes. Of course nobody wants to be that one, but the odds are extremely good you won't be. And I don't know, but how good do you think the batteries are in all 250 million of those bikes? Now I'm being silly, but out of all of those bikes it seems possible at least one of the fires could have been due to a lightning strike.

You are extrapolating from one data point there, and without more information it is difficult to judge your actual risk.

One of the questions I'd want an answer to before making a judgement call would be by how much are e-bike fires underreported? Some fires may cause a bunch of damage but aren't serious enough to be investigated or entered into the statistics. In some fires caused by e-bikes they might not be able to determine that an e-bike caused the fire. So that "119 ebike fires" is a lower bound.

Another issue is that we don't know how fire risk is distributed. If all of the e-bike fires happened with a battery pack made from a particular factory or charged with a particular charger my judgement of my risk would be very different if my battery came from the same factory, or didn't.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

You are extrapolating from one data point there, and without more information it is difficult to judge your actual risk.

One of the questions I'd want an answer to before making a judgement call would be by how much are e-bike fires underreported? Some fires may cause a bunch of damage but aren't serious enough to be investigated or entered into the statistics. In some fires caused by e-bikes they might not be able to determine that an e-bike caused the fire. So that "119 ebike fires" is a lower bound.

Another issue is that we don't know how fire risk is distributed. If all of the e-bike fires happened with a battery pack made from a particular factory or charged with a particular charger my judgement of my risk would be very different if my battery came from the same factory, or didn't.

I'm not going to pursue this much further, but as to your first point, statistics are meant to be manipulated. There are all kinds of quotes about that. The same pretty much applies to the rest of your post.

I'm mostly going by what the situation seems to me. I get that other people see things differently and I understand that some people feel the need to mitigate the risk, real or perceived. I just think the threat is more perceived than real..

I've been on the forum for several years now and I may have missed something or forgotten it, but I don't recall anyone here ever being the first person victim of an ebike battery fire. Flats, yes, fires not so much. I'm sure several people will now enlighten me about that.

Anyway, an ounce of prevention makes a lot of sense. All things in moderation though.

TT

 

[Gionnirocket]

LEVA editorial. And with that, good day…

“The ingredients of the battery packages that are so unlikely to be trouble are Quality cells, well-designed battery packages, well-made battery packages, well-designed and manufactured battery management systems, good BMS software, well designed and manufactured chargers. Good motor controllers, and sensible ebike owner/operators.”

Is this what we’re getting from self regulated sub $500 batteries and unregulated sub < $1500 OEM direct eBikes?

How would you rate a shrink wrap battery from Jenny using this criteria

 

[6zfshdb]

I'm thinking shock-resistant cases will melt out, and fast.

I bought a flammable cabinet from Zoro. About once a year they do a deep discount and free shipping. I'm really wanting a lithium battery rated fire blanket, but for now this is my solution. Sorry to those that have seen me post this manytimes, but here's howmine has developed.


First I bought one of the largest Ammo cans. 40MM

Then I drilled 3/4" holes and protected with rubber grommets.

I removed the rubber gasket and am next adding Ceramic Fire Blanket like used in my wife's kiln.

I really now only need the Ammo Can. I bought the cabinet when I was still building and repairing batteries and doing customer service. But as it turns out I still have 5 batteries and still find it useful.

DON'T FORGET SOME WELDERS GLOVES!!

EXCUSE THE POOR EDITING. Please!
View attachment 126591View attachment 126591View attachment 126574View attachment 126581




View attachment 126592
View attachment 126592
View attachment 126596View attachment 126590

Do you have any problems with the battery overheating inside the closed ammo can? Do the grommet holes provide enough ventilation? My batteries get quite warm when charged and as per mfg. suggestions, usually do it in a well ventilated area.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Do you have any problems with the battery overheating inside the closed ammo can? Do the grommet holes provide enough ventilation? My batteries get quite warm when charged and as per mfg. suggestions, usually do it in a well ventilated area.

I'd like to highlight one thing stated in the manufactured battery box descriptions..."for storage and transport"

Dependant on your battery size and charger output would an ammo can be the sole cause of thermal runaway, probably not. But it sure would make it worse if there was a battery malfunction and could potentially be the straw that breaks the camels back and takes it to the point of no return.
That said... depending where you are charging and if ventilated and sized properly, it might prevent a house fire.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I had the experience of having two battery makers having catastrophic failures . Lives were devastated. But hey anyone that wants to convince themselves that the reports are akin to lottery ticket odds… Well… Best of luck.

You never answered about what kind of battery makers these were? I'm guessing other folks like you, who maybe didn't understand the issues as well as you? "Makers" as opposed to "manufacturers" sounds like a significant word choice.

I'd have a different attitude about this if I (literally, just little ol. me) were making batteries for sale to other people. The danger and liability would be on a whole different scale. And I don't know about you, but I have to suspect that your two battery makers likely got their battery making training on You-Tube, if even that.

Oh yeah, do we know what kind of cells they were using? Maybe I'm going down the wrong path (correct me) but it sounds like these may have been people trying to save money on bike batteries, i.e.: trying to build cheap.

TT

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I've been on the forum for several years now and I may have missed something or forgotten it, but I don't recall anyone here ever being the first person victim of an ebike battery fire. Flats, yes, fires not so much. I'm sure several people will now enlighten me about that.

It's been a couple of days and I'm really surprised that no one has responded to this point. Does that mean that of all the ebike riders who have used this forum over the years, none have had a battery fire?

TT

 

[AHicks]

It's been a couple of days and I'm really surprised that no one has responded to this point. Does that mean that of all the ebike riders who have used this forum over the years, none have had a battery fire?

TT

I have a first hand story, but it's regarding an (abused) battery used to run a starter for a gasoline powered radio control plane. Without going into all the detail regarding why one might be using something like that, this fellow was having a bad day trying to start his RC engine. He ran the battery charge down to the point it would no longer turn over the engine (trying virtually non stop), then, with no cool down period for what had to be a pretty warm battery, fast charged the battery for about 15 minutes. Afterward, his engine still wouldn't start, so he threw all of his stuff into the trunk of his car, and decided to hang out with some of the others flying that day. The car was a very late model very high end (hush hush) Camaro, he had on loan for the purpose of test driving (test upload equipment apparent under the car's rear bumper. This was clearly not a car you're going to see often, even here in the Metro Detoit area.. The battery pack that had been abused was placed next to a half full 1 gallon gas jug when loaded (clearly haphazardly). This gentleman was a fuel calibration engineer for one of the big 3 Detroit automakers - a pretty bright guy normally.

After sitting in the (thankfully) open trunk for 5 minutes or so, this battery caught fire. It's owner noted it nearly immediately, along with it's accidental proximity to the gas can, and was able to grab the battery by it's wires and toss it into the club's dirt parking lot, where we proceeded to watch while it did it's thing. Several club member present that day to witness this event, and we all walked away a little wiser...... on a few different levels.....

Oh, damage to the car was a scorched trunk mat which was simply removed. This allowing our engineer friend the luxury of not having to explain what happened. I can only imagine the kind of explaining that would have been required with the loss of that car and the test equipment built into it.....

 

[Gionnirocket]

I have a first hand story, but it's regarding an (abused) battery used to run a starter for a gasoline powered radio control plane. Without going into all the detail regarding why one might be using something like that, this fellow was having a bad day trying to start his RC engine. He ran the battery charge down to the point it would no longer turn over the engine (trying virtually non stop), then, with no cool down period for what had to be a pretty warm battery, fast charged the battery for about 15 minutes. Afterward, his engine still wouldn't start, so he threw all of his stuff into the trunk of his car, and decided to hang out with some of the others flying that day. The car was a very late model very high end (hush hush) Camaro, he had on loan for the purpose of test driving (test upload equipment apparent under the car's rear bumper. This was clearly not a car you're going to see often, even here in the Metro Detoit area.. The battery pack that had been abused was placed next to a half full 1 gallon gas jug when loaded (clearly haphazardly). This gentleman was a fuel calibration engineer for one of the big 3 Detroit automakers - a pretty bright guy normally.

After sitting in the (thankfully) open trunk for 5 minutes or so, this battery caught fire. It's owner noted it nearly immediately, along with it's accidental proximity to the gas can, and was able to grab the battery by it's wires and toss it into the club's dirt parking lot, where we proceeded to watch while it did it's thing. Several club member present that day to witness this event, and we all walked away a little wiser...... on a few different levels.....

Oh, damage to the car was a scorched trunk mat which was simply removed. This allowing our engineer friend the luxury of not having to explain what happened. I can only imagine the kind of explaining that would have been required with the loss of that car and the test equipment built into it.....

And that's my impression of the situation as well. Though any battery has the potential to fail... Typically what's seen is abused, poorly maintained, keep it always fully charged with cheap hardware going Chernobyl.
In other words... User Error.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Very interesting story, and I'm not arguing at all, but even though you were there, I'd call it a second hand story. It didn't happen to you. And it wasn't a bike battery, and even though it wasn't intentional is sounds like a clear case of negligence. I mean, if you were trying to start a fire and act like it wasn't your fault, that would be a great way to go. Especially regarding the gasoline!

Another little note: if we want to throw RC batteries into the discussion, I've already mentioned phone batteries, but what about all the portable tools from Makita, Dewalt, Ryobi, etc,, etc.? I have close to a dozen DeWalt batteries I mostly keep charged up; always two or three on the charger. Some of them are pretty big. Not eBike big, but 9 AH. Pretty honkin' big for a portable drill. No fires after many years and probably some serious abuse.

TT

 

[m@Robertson]

Do you have any problems with the battery overheating inside the closed ammo can? Do the grommet holes provide enough ventilation? My batteries get quite warm when charged and as per mfg. suggestions, usually do it in a well ventilated area.

I would say that a battery that is heating up while charging is on the 'substandard' list. Something was done wrong there at the manufacturing level and needs attention. Could be just the charger running too much current. @6zfshdb I know this doesn't help you any but some observations in that regard:

I comment on this subject so often in so many different places I'm not sure I made this point here or elsewhere recently, but this heat-while-charging story is emblematic of how people want fast charging - and some manufacturers give it to them - but fast charging causes battery degradation due to the heat it pumps into the battery, and causes its life cycle count to go down faster than it otherwise would. At best. It could also be a sign of a pack that is 'out of its league'.

This part goes to building batteries that are the best they can be. Cheap cells and some quality ones get hot. Samsung 30Q cells for instance are good cells but they get really hot when you hammer them. They are manufactured understanding this though. so its not the end of the world. But a Samsung 25R borders on legendary for running cool no matter how hard you beat on it. Its just not energy-dense (a pack with the same number of cells will have less capacity if made with 25R vs. 30Q). Another low-cost, name brand cell is the venerable Panasonic GA. Those little cells hold a lot of juice per cell, but they are not up to taking a beating. If a GA pack is stressed it gets damn hot, and not in an acceptable way.

The above are all older cells so I am not commenting here on what cells to use in a pack (or discussing the mitigating circumstance of how many to use). What I am saying is a good pack is designed with its load in mind when choosing the cells, right down to which cells you pick. Its not enough to say "I want name brand cells" because your manufacturer could pick GA's for your build, and then give you a BBSHD and a 5a charger that needs a fan to keep it cool. Lets also give the battery/charger a bullet connector to make a bad situation worse.

If your battery is heating up while charging, you need to slow it down. Not so much to keep your house from burning down, but to bring the charge level down into the safe/sane range, heatwise.

In addition to all the other safeguards I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, add this one:

https://amzn.to/3OpaAxF

I tape this to a surface on a battery and switch it on when I am home or at the office and parking the bike. I want to see what the pack's surface temp is before I begin charging. If the temp is not declining I don't charge. If it is over 100 degrees I don't charge (its in the 100's now outside so its going to be hot no matter what). And if your charger is causing the battery to get hot for sure don't charge. Thats a problem that requires a solution.

On that sensor, if I need to I have it placed so I can leave it turned on and monitor it. If I have to park on the pavement outside Costco (steel wall'd building, blazing sun and concrete) I can monitor pack temp on the ride home and keep to the shade, or sit in some under a tree with dirt under the bike to let the pack cool to ambient.

And y'all thought smart battery management was limited to charging.

 

[BlackHand]

Does that mean that of all the ebike riders who have used this forum over the years, none have had a battery fire?

No, it does not mean that at all. It means of the maybe couple hundred people who've read it none have answered in the affirmative.

Certainly anybody who experienced a serious fire would likely have insurance and lawyers involved for years afterward and would be foolish to randomly post something in a thread like this.

 

[AHicks]

Very interesting story, and I'm not arguing at all, but even though you were there, I'd call it a second hand story. It didn't happen to you. And it wasn't a bike battery, and even though it wasn't intentional is sounds like a clear case of negligence. I mean, if you were trying to start a fire and act like it wasn't your fault, that would be a great way to go. Especially regarding the gasoline!

Another little note: if we want to throw RC batteries into the discussion, I've already mentioned phone batteries, but what about all the portable tools from Makita, Dewalt, Ryobi, etc,, etc.? I have close to a dozen DeWalt batteries I mostly keep charged up; always two or three on the charger. Some of them are pretty big. Not eBike big, but 9 AH. Pretty honkin' big for a portable drill. No fires after many years and probably some serious abuse.

TT

First. I witnessed the fire described above in person. That makes it first hand.

Second, I tossed a Makita 9.6v battery that I thought was dead in the trash, helped load it into a trash truck on collection day, and witnessed first hand why you want to drown those batteries in a bucket of water for a couple of weeks (lesson learned!). We ended up grabbing a garden hose to douse the resulting small trash fire in the back of that truck. I'd forgotten about that one. The trash collector asked what the hell I threw in there, and when I told him he was as amazed as I was. Said he'd done that himself several times....

Still, I'm with you regarding our bikes. Stuff can happen when talking OEM batteries and equipment, but it's not very likely....

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Your general point may be correct but I think it's highly unlikely that no one has mentioned something about a bike fire that happened to them. And maybe they have. It really seems like someone who remembered such a post would say something. Of course you're right though. All we know is no one has replied in the affirmative. All things considered though, the lack of a response probably means it hasn't happened, at least not often enough to show up on the radar. And that reinforces my point that bike battery fires are probably not something the average e-biker needs to spend much time or money worrying about.

TT

 

[Tars Tarkas]

First. I witnessed the fire described above in person. That makes it first hand.

Second, I tossed a Makita 9.6v battery that I thought was dead in the trash, helped load it into a trash truck on collection day, and witnessed first hand why you want to drown those batteries in a bucket of water for a couple of weeks (lesson learned!).

Small point, not worth discussing. Sorry I am. But if you saw a man jump off a 12 story building you really can't tell that story like it happened to you. I get what you're saying though. Still, if that's as close as we can come to an ebike battery fire happening to someone on this forum, it hasn't moved my needle any closer to wanting to buy an ammo can for my batteries.

I do like those big ammo cans though. I might buy one or two for my ammo and other stuff.

TT

 

[m@Robertson]

I do like those big ammo cans though. I might buy one or two for my ammo and other stuff.

The short 20/40mm ones are ideal. The tall ones can get mighty heavy when filled (for you to lift and your shelves to sustain several of). Make sure they are sold to you with intact gaskets. Go on EBay and get yourself some paper humidity gauges and dessicant packs. Condition the packs in the oven and then throw them into the cans. Check 'em every year or so and toss the packs back in the oven as needed. I live on the coast so dry interiors are not to be taken for granted.

 

[ChezCheese:)]

My bike's battery exploded

I was driving down a highway in northern California, with the bike on a rack behind my van. I heard a loud pop, hiss, and plume of white smoke. Pulled over right away, and the driver behind me says my van is on fire. I grabbed a fire extinguisher and ran outside to see the lower battery was...

electricbikereview.com

 

[Tars Tarkas]

My bike's battery exploded

I was driving down a highway in northern California, with the bike on a rack behind my van. I heard a loud pop, hiss, and plume of white smoke. Pulled over right away, and the driver behind me says my van is on fire. I grabbed a fire extinguisher and ran outside to see the lower battery was...

electricbikereview.com

Thank you! I would have been really surprised if there wasn't at least one thread like this. I imagine there are others.

I totally buy into the idea that batteries don't belong on bikes when the bikes are going down the road on a rack. This particular story doesn't seem to have anything to do with safe charging, but it's certainly a caution to handle batteries as safely as possible.

TT

 

[Dave Rocks]

It's been a couple of days and I'm really surprised that no one has responded to this point. Does that mean that of all the ebike riders who have used this forum over the years, none have had a battery fire?

TT

This thread has 2,000 views. No Battery fire members have posted yet.