That just seems shady to me. If you can’t get the cable just be upfront about it, but selling it and then hoping the customer just doesn’t notice it is missing seems crooked. Same with downgrades. I know covid is wrecking the supply chain, but you have to reach out and discuss these with the customer and come to an agreement before shipping the bike. This isn’t some mass produced product, this is a boutique little shop. If you can not provide what you sold then it has to be up to the customer to accept the changes.
Watt Wagons Critical Product Availability Status
- Thread starter pushkar
- Start date
Acme
Well-Known Member
I read this thread and it’s like there’s two entirely different worlds, I need something, I call WW, if they’re not there they call me back, everything is handled in short order. I have my 3rd bike shipping next week. i’m not the least bit worried that it won’t ship out on time or even if it’s a week late I don’t care I just know it’s gonna happen. One thing I don’t do is call them stupid, incompetent or any other choice words I would not like to be called. I find that sort of thing puts you at the end of the list.
So thrilled that I saw your comment. I have a feeling all of my @pushkar problems are about to be solved, thanks to you. Given your amazing success and bandwagoning for Watt Wagons would you kindly inquire on my behalf re the bike I was promised, paid for in full, never received, yet am still owed thousands of dollars on? That would be doing me a real solid. Best.
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
Critical Product Availability Status ... FYI
My latest contact w/ WW staff indicates next incoming order of titanium frames are set back a couple months at this point.
If you're the next tranche (after the ti CT disappeared from the site), October forward, you're in this group - including UC frames.
I anticipated that happening weeks ago am sure I'm not alone. Being swamped with fishing season, I left my 'WW Prayer beads' in the drawer,, but I get it that some customers are angry - regardless what Mick said.
The initial PRC covid restrictions lifted; frames became available; this was seen as a god-send; a large order was placed (based upon an upgraded geometry) and a lot of WW money laid down.
Now it's full stop - unless you're tesla - where the employees are chained in the factory forever.
At this very moment, even UPS says all of eastern China is not accepting incoming freight.
Happy daze in SD.
Fn'F
My latest contact w/ WW staff indicates next incoming order of titanium frames are set back a couple months at this point.
If you're the next tranche (after the ti CT disappeared from the site), October forward, you're in this group - including UC frames.
I anticipated that happening weeks ago am sure I'm not alone. Being swamped with fishing season, I left my 'WW Prayer beads' in the drawer,, but I get it that some customers are angry - regardless what Mick said.
The initial PRC covid restrictions lifted; frames became available; this was seen as a god-send; a large order was placed (based upon an upgraded geometry) and a lot of WW money laid down.
Now it's full stop - unless you're tesla - where the employees are chained in the factory forever.
At this very moment, even UPS says all of eastern China is not accepting incoming freight.
Happy daze in SD.
Fn'F
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
Glad you memory loss from all that dope is abating a bit. I'm way worse. And you my dear?
Fn'F
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
... and dang. Now you are getting all feminine. Hey, I'm ancient, an old 'only the ladies' kinda guy.
I don't go to parties. I go fishing. Keeps me male.
Attachments
![20201002_192507[1].jpg](/data/attachments/121/121173-b24736bc661aa1e997bcd527649f8bfe.jpg)
loamoaf
Active Member
- Region
- USA
I let my Y chromosome keep me male, not that that has any bearing on the importance of one's experience or how they feel about it, but this is some real bull... WW is out of controllers again and I am still waiting on my order for a motor made back in July of 2021. They had controllers when I placed an order. They got a shipment of motors since I placed my order, but then were out of controllers. They received more controllers with the promise all outstanding orders would be taken care of by end of March. End of March has come and gone. I have seen people who placed orders multiple months after me and get their bike. WW keeps stringing me along. All of the apologists & fanboys putting down others' experiences and concerns just because you get special treatment doesn't alleviate the situation of others, it only serves to make WW look worse by playing favoritism if others are actively placing orders and getting them fulfilled promptly while others are pushed further down the queue. I've had this cloud hanging over my head with my order for nearly 10 months now. I don't want to worry about when I'm going to get my $2000 miracle motor, I want to worry about where I'm going to ride tomorrow.
0 stars for customer service - empty promises that the product you paid for is just around the corner in perpetuity.
0 stars for the product - I paid for a simple X1 motor with no bike parts severely squeezed by whatever supply chain crisis and don't have it nearly 10 months later. I've placed ordered from China, Taiwan, Japan, UK, and EU over the pandemic, I've been on a waitlist to order with a lead time, I've ordered custom fabricated parts with a lead time, I've designed and had many parts printed domestically and overseas. No wait has been anywhere near this ridiculous. Not lithium batteries, not bike parts, not electronic components, not 'in-demand' metals, not anything. I ordered a saddle from Germany that wasn't supposed to go on sale in the NA market for a few months, got that puppy in a couple weeks no hassle. The next longest unexpected wait was a pair of Nextie rims and that's because they were sitting at the airport waiting in queue for space on a plane for a few weeks.
Only reason I don't ask for my money back at this point is because I'm less likely to see that than the motor. WW has rotated stock at least twice since my order was placed and there are whole bikes built and ready to ship on the store page that have X1 motors on them as well, and here I sit with my thumb up my ass, ranting to strangers.
I have zero confidence that if I needed to utilize the 2 year warranty I paid for that it would actually be of any benefit. I have near zero confidence I will get my order by the end of May. I have very little confidence the programming cable will be included with my initial order, and I'm also concerned that they'll ship it configured as 48V instead of 52V and not want to pay shipping to rectify that. I'm holding out hope I can at least get my account approved so I can set up profiles on the controller within a week of arrival. I hope I'm just being pessimistic, I want to be proven wrong and I'd love to feel guilty for being 'so harsh' on them...
But to be blunt, if WW didn't have exclusive rights to the X1 controller in North America they'd be little more than vaporware. I'm ashamed to have ever hyped them up. There's absolutely no way they can regain my confidence as a customer and I won't buy from them again regardless of what they tell people in the update emails. Currently, as far as I'm concerned the only innovation they are responsible for is streamlining the process of fleecing people out of non-negligible amounts of money without delivering a commensurate product.
Kudos to all of you who get the VIP treatment from WW, but with all due respect (and to be frank given your dismissal of others, not much is due) my money is as good as yours and you're not special. If WW is showing certain customers preference then that only goes to show how terrible they are at running a business - and that they are operating in an illegal manner. A business in the US has an obligation to honor paying customers' orders and keep them informed of all delays.
And before we talk about supply chain woes - I got a motor from China late 2021 to my door within 4 weeks of ordering it, for literally $1000 less than the X1 from WW. I have bought two custom pair of carbon rims from Nextie, solid rim bed so nothing that was ready to ship. I've had one set for 10 months, the other for 5. Nextie forgot a part of my shipping address for the second order so I had to pick it up at the post office, it gave me a little worry but was no sweat to handle but they refunded me the $98 shipping like it was nothing and apologized. I'm about to order a HT fat frame from them, they've been excellent. I ordered a carbon frame from China early 2021, pandemic still raging - I got it to my door in about 8 weeks, and part of that lead time was from painting. Communication, response time, shipping time, price - all great. These are both business that have large volume orders from different customers but they handled little ol' me and my cold hard cash just as well as any domestic retailer that would be deserving of 5 stars.
I understand backers of an unrealized product should to some degree have tempered expectations about the timeline of their product, but if the buy in from them asked is for the full sale price of the finsihed product, and not just the sale value of the element being developed (the frame) - then there should be more of a commitment from the producer to deliver on their promise or honor refunds in a timely manner. They sold a product, not the chance to own a product. To my understanding people were charged for the entire bike and not just the frame, and some are left holding the bag on those parts that may or may not even be paid for or ordered, as there is no frame to build a bike with. Essentially an interest-free business loan. I'm hesitant to put a $500 refundable deposit on a $50,000 electric vehicle to secure a number in line and ensure that juicy $7500 tax credit... Nobody is financing $80,000 for a loaded F150-L before shipment; the goofy Cybertruck that's been shipping next year for the past 3 years only has a $100 refundable deposit on it... I'm rambling again but I think I've articulated the point in regards to those founders who have not had their issues squared away and the uncouthness of asking full price up front for a product the didn't even know whether they could deliver or noth. I'm not privvy to them terms founders agreed to in their purchase so this is half assumption.
As obnoxious as @Rome has been with his low-effort, unintelligible comments, he was still entitled to a timely refund in full. The fact that he had to dispute charges and WW said to do so - that they wouldn't dispute - in order to get his full refund... this seems to be done out of spite and regardless of the trash talk is no way to professionally conduct a business. Afterall, it's just business. Money in exchange for a product. Because a customer got upset at undelivered promises, requested a refund and was not given it, and then posted a negative review abou their negative experience doesn't mean they should be punished by said business. I was excited for WW's products and that got me excited for them as a company, but things aren't looking so rosy nearly a year later and the right now how I'm feeling after this latest news is that I only care enough for WW to continue to exist as a business is so that they can fulfill my order then remain operational for 2 years to cover my warranty should I need to utilize it.
I can honestly see why WW abandoned this thread because it has often deviated from the original intent and at times devolved into a petty game of keyboard-fu. I appreciated their move to frequent email updates and what I was seeing had me hopeful to be out riding with the improved weather, but once again they dropped the ball and didn't say anything until asked. They got controllers the first week of March and included pictures of them in the update, said all outstanding orders will ship by the end of March. We're coming up on the end of April and I find out they're again waiting on controllers for my order. Absolutely wild.
2 days after ordering: "your order ships in 2 weeks"
ask ~4 weeks after ordering: "should ship in 2-3 weeks"
ask ~8 weeks after ordering: "this Friday"
ask ~11 weeks after ordering: "waiting on motors, expect to have by end of October"
ask ~16 weeks after ordering: "we got motors in October but are waiting on controllers, first half of January"
then the update emails started coming, I at least had updates on the delays... but of course more empty promises. this is exhausting. I did not expect purchasing the best most amazing most powerful most efficient innovative controller for the Bafang Ultra Max that's fully programmable would occupy this much mental real estate more than half a year later. Many things have changed in my life since I placed my order, one thing that has remained constant is that I am Archon X1-less. I want to let go of this baggage and leave it in the past so I can move on with my life and embrace the future - the wind in my hair and the g-out of a nice banked turn at the bottom of a quick descent. And the sad thing is all this waiting has only bolstered my expectations for the product, undoubtedly setting me up for disappointment if I finally ever do get the motor...
Somehow, I'm still hopeful - but I'm not optimistic.
0 stars for customer service - empty promises that the product you paid for is just around the corner in perpetuity.
0 stars for the product - I paid for a simple X1 motor with no bike parts severely squeezed by whatever supply chain crisis and don't have it nearly 10 months later. I've placed ordered from China, Taiwan, Japan, UK, and EU over the pandemic, I've been on a waitlist to order with a lead time, I've ordered custom fabricated parts with a lead time, I've designed and had many parts printed domestically and overseas. No wait has been anywhere near this ridiculous. Not lithium batteries, not bike parts, not electronic components, not 'in-demand' metals, not anything. I ordered a saddle from Germany that wasn't supposed to go on sale in the NA market for a few months, got that puppy in a couple weeks no hassle. The next longest unexpected wait was a pair of Nextie rims and that's because they were sitting at the airport waiting in queue for space on a plane for a few weeks.
Only reason I don't ask for my money back at this point is because I'm less likely to see that than the motor. WW has rotated stock at least twice since my order was placed and there are whole bikes built and ready to ship on the store page that have X1 motors on them as well, and here I sit with my thumb up my ass, ranting to strangers.
I have zero confidence that if I needed to utilize the 2 year warranty I paid for that it would actually be of any benefit. I have near zero confidence I will get my order by the end of May. I have very little confidence the programming cable will be included with my initial order, and I'm also concerned that they'll ship it configured as 48V instead of 52V and not want to pay shipping to rectify that. I'm holding out hope I can at least get my account approved so I can set up profiles on the controller within a week of arrival. I hope I'm just being pessimistic, I want to be proven wrong and I'd love to feel guilty for being 'so harsh' on them...
But to be blunt, if WW didn't have exclusive rights to the X1 controller in North America they'd be little more than vaporware. I'm ashamed to have ever hyped them up. There's absolutely no way they can regain my confidence as a customer and I won't buy from them again regardless of what they tell people in the update emails. Currently, as far as I'm concerned the only innovation they are responsible for is streamlining the process of fleecing people out of non-negligible amounts of money without delivering a commensurate product.
Kudos to all of you who get the VIP treatment from WW, but with all due respect (and to be frank given your dismissal of others, not much is due) my money is as good as yours and you're not special. If WW is showing certain customers preference then that only goes to show how terrible they are at running a business - and that they are operating in an illegal manner. A business in the US has an obligation to honor paying customers' orders and keep them informed of all delays.
And before we talk about supply chain woes - I got a motor from China late 2021 to my door within 4 weeks of ordering it, for literally $1000 less than the X1 from WW. I have bought two custom pair of carbon rims from Nextie, solid rim bed so nothing that was ready to ship. I've had one set for 10 months, the other for 5. Nextie forgot a part of my shipping address for the second order so I had to pick it up at the post office, it gave me a little worry but was no sweat to handle but they refunded me the $98 shipping like it was nothing and apologized. I'm about to order a HT fat frame from them, they've been excellent. I ordered a carbon frame from China early 2021, pandemic still raging - I got it to my door in about 8 weeks, and part of that lead time was from painting. Communication, response time, shipping time, price - all great. These are both business that have large volume orders from different customers but they handled little ol' me and my cold hard cash just as well as any domestic retailer that would be deserving of 5 stars.
I understand backers of an unrealized product should to some degree have tempered expectations about the timeline of their product, but if the buy in from them asked is for the full sale price of the finsihed product, and not just the sale value of the element being developed (the frame) - then there should be more of a commitment from the producer to deliver on their promise or honor refunds in a timely manner. They sold a product, not the chance to own a product. To my understanding people were charged for the entire bike and not just the frame, and some are left holding the bag on those parts that may or may not even be paid for or ordered, as there is no frame to build a bike with. Essentially an interest-free business loan. I'm hesitant to put a $500 refundable deposit on a $50,000 electric vehicle to secure a number in line and ensure that juicy $7500 tax credit... Nobody is financing $80,000 for a loaded F150-L before shipment; the goofy Cybertruck that's been shipping next year for the past 3 years only has a $100 refundable deposit on it... I'm rambling again but I think I've articulated the point in regards to those founders who have not had their issues squared away and the uncouthness of asking full price up front for a product the didn't even know whether they could deliver or noth. I'm not privvy to them terms founders agreed to in their purchase so this is half assumption.
As obnoxious as @Rome has been with his low-effort, unintelligible comments, he was still entitled to a timely refund in full. The fact that he had to dispute charges and WW said to do so - that they wouldn't dispute - in order to get his full refund... this seems to be done out of spite and regardless of the trash talk is no way to professionally conduct a business. Afterall, it's just business. Money in exchange for a product. Because a customer got upset at undelivered promises, requested a refund and was not given it, and then posted a negative review abou their negative experience doesn't mean they should be punished by said business. I was excited for WW's products and that got me excited for them as a company, but things aren't looking so rosy nearly a year later and the right now how I'm feeling after this latest news is that I only care enough for WW to continue to exist as a business is so that they can fulfill my order then remain operational for 2 years to cover my warranty should I need to utilize it.
I can honestly see why WW abandoned this thread because it has often deviated from the original intent and at times devolved into a petty game of keyboard-fu. I appreciated their move to frequent email updates and what I was seeing had me hopeful to be out riding with the improved weather, but once again they dropped the ball and didn't say anything until asked. They got controllers the first week of March and included pictures of them in the update, said all outstanding orders will ship by the end of March. We're coming up on the end of April and I find out they're again waiting on controllers for my order. Absolutely wild.
2 days after ordering: "your order ships in 2 weeks"
ask ~4 weeks after ordering: "should ship in 2-3 weeks"
ask ~8 weeks after ordering: "this Friday"
ask ~11 weeks after ordering: "waiting on motors, expect to have by end of October"
ask ~16 weeks after ordering: "we got motors in October but are waiting on controllers, first half of January"
then the update emails started coming, I at least had updates on the delays... but of course more empty promises. this is exhausting. I did not expect purchasing the best most amazing most powerful most efficient innovative controller for the Bafang Ultra Max that's fully programmable would occupy this much mental real estate more than half a year later. Many things have changed in my life since I placed my order, one thing that has remained constant is that I am Archon X1-less. I want to let go of this baggage and leave it in the past so I can move on with my life and embrace the future - the wind in my hair and the g-out of a nice banked turn at the bottom of a quick descent. And the sad thing is all this waiting has only bolstered my expectations for the product, undoubtedly setting me up for disappointment if I finally ever do get the motor...
Somehow, I'm still hopeful - but I'm not optimistic.
Merle Nelson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
Loamoaf I'm sorry you don't have your motor and controller yet. And, I'm sorry to see you put that much effort into a post knowing it reflects how much this whole situation cuts deep into your personal "feelings" and values.
coldriderwi
Active Member
Well it at least serves as a cautionary tale for anyone thinking of placing an order with them. Put down thousands and you may be waiting a year, two, or more. Ask for status and you will either be ignored or fed unrealistic timelines. Ask for a refund and be ignored or fed unrealistic timelines.
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
Well thanks for the positive energy !!!
You put up with all that just for an X1 Controller? Very determined.
You sound damned resourceful, covered your options I'm sure. You stay that way, if it can be it will.
So it's - Source of the X1 - this thing ?
Controller X1 mit Einbau, Kalibrierung und Teststandsfahrt
€429,00 * **
* inkl. 19% MwSt. zzgl. Versandkosten
**$464.05 USD
And this thing ?
ADAPTER
Bafang Ultra Hauptkabel
€44,95 * **
* inkl. 19% MwSt. zzgl. Versandkosten
** $48.62 USD
Or a complete motor?
| Produkt Preis | €1.199,00 |
| Zusatzkosten durch Auswahl: | €89,95 |
| Gesamtkosten: | €1.288,95 |
$1395.00 USD and figure $200, air freight shipping.
Recently, I had a 'contract performance' hold-up over an unavailable part to complete a custom made item. Soon as I found out, I located and arranged for delivery of the part to my builder. I got lucky. Being pro-active with a 'better to ask forgiveness than permission' mindset, I always tell myself: Never demand anyone do what you can't, and keep your fingers crossed if you do.
Fn'F
Attachments
Csubi
Active Member
- Region
- Canada
Shanghai’s Covid Lockdown Leads to Logistics Disarray, With Quarantined Truckers, Piled-Up Containers
scrambler
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Bay Area, CA
Not a good time for a startup.
You can't get part, so you can't deliver bikes, so you can't sell them, so you have no way to constitute a cash flow or reserve
In the meantime you need to pay people and keep developing the new models ...
This all makes for a very hard to manage financial situation.
You can't get part, so you can't deliver bikes, so you can't sell them, so you have no way to constitute a cash flow or reserve
In the meantime you need to pay people and keep developing the new models ...
This all makes for a very hard to manage financial situation.
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
We can only hope that entire swaths of products don't go away forever. We might get lucky - if there's a savvy international trader at the helm.
We all deal with it differently. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't sure my conviction. In 1929 rich men couldn't handle the massive incoming bad news and jumped out 12 story windows.
I can accept it, deny or complain. It's not going to get better for a while and inflation has just begun.
Prices will double, triple, many items will be gone forever. General Mills could go under. A lot of now 'unavailable' will never be".
A Bell Pepper, $5.00 - min. Everything will be "Organic" and priced double. Meat
? HDPE bottles - gone. Milk in a bag in a box - and that will add $1.00 to the cost.
This is a paradigm shift. We were already decoupling trade but this really accelerated the pain.
-
In China authorities assess the covid risk as extreme. Ports are shut tight; truckers have to be tested; delays are insane; fuel unavailable; tesla's employees imprisoned, living on the floor at the plant; fox-con (apple chips) factories shutting down.
So, to combat the these problems, China stopped requiring data reporting. Problem solved.
"Industrial barometers from crude oil inventories at import terminals to high-frequency container throughput at ports were widely available previously, offering a real-time window on the world's second-biggest economy unhampered by the delays and possible distortions of official economic data.
But since China’s Personal Information Protection Law went into effect in November, crucial sources of information about the world's biggest exporting nation have gone dark" Reuters says.
Now covid is in Beijing https://www.reuters.com/world/china...s-covid-19-mass-testing-most-city-2022-04-26/ While Shanghai gets worse every day https://fortune.com/2022/04/25/shanghai-residents-getting-sick-government-issued-food-supplies/
I'd be pleasantly amazed if this resolved in 2 months.
What's maddening is pondering where the titanium frames actually are. Ranging from an agreement with a shop in China - that's waiting for the tubes to weld up; package and ship off into the maelstrom - to finished and in one of those containers on the dock.
The 'sponge' comes mainly from Japan who 's teaming with the Saudi's to further refine it. The longer the wait for production to get rolling, the deeper the Japanese will be into the titanium market - from chemically precipitated metal to (energy consumptive) refinery castings and finished machined products.
I'm sure it will be worth my wait.
FnF
We all deal with it differently. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't sure my conviction. In 1929 rich men couldn't handle the massive incoming bad news and jumped out 12 story windows.
I can accept it, deny or complain. It's not going to get better for a while and inflation has just begun.
Prices will double, triple, many items will be gone forever. General Mills could go under. A lot of now 'unavailable' will never be".
A Bell Pepper, $5.00 - min. Everything will be "Organic" and priced double. Meat
? HDPE bottles - gone. Milk in a bag in a box - and that will add $1.00 to the cost.This is a paradigm shift. We were already decoupling trade but this really accelerated the pain.
-
In China authorities assess the covid risk as extreme. Ports are shut tight; truckers have to be tested; delays are insane; fuel unavailable; tesla's employees imprisoned, living on the floor at the plant; fox-con (apple chips) factories shutting down.
So, to combat the these problems, China stopped requiring data reporting. Problem solved.
"Industrial barometers from crude oil inventories at import terminals to high-frequency container throughput at ports were widely available previously, offering a real-time window on the world's second-biggest economy unhampered by the delays and possible distortions of official economic data.
But since China’s Personal Information Protection Law went into effect in November, crucial sources of information about the world's biggest exporting nation have gone dark" Reuters says.
Now covid is in Beijing https://www.reuters.com/world/china...s-covid-19-mass-testing-most-city-2022-04-26/ While Shanghai gets worse every day https://fortune.com/2022/04/25/shanghai-residents-getting-sick-government-issued-food-supplies/
I'd be pleasantly amazed if this resolved in 2 months.
What's maddening is pondering where the titanium frames actually are. Ranging from an agreement with a shop in China - that's waiting for the tubes to weld up; package and ship off into the maelstrom - to finished and in one of those containers on the dock.
The 'sponge' comes mainly from Japan who 's teaming with the Saudi's to further refine it. The longer the wait for production to get rolling, the deeper the Japanese will be into the titanium market - from chemically precipitated metal to (energy consumptive) refinery castings and finished machined products.
I'm sure it will be worth my wait.
FnF
Not an option for anyone in the US. WW is the sole US distributor, leaving many out of luck in the current situation.
Innotrace is shipping slowly but people <outside the US> are getting their controllers and motors, etc.
Fast n' Furious
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
This reminds me of trying to order Shimano parts from a European vendor. When they find out you have a North American address they say, "Sorry, no can do."
