Watt Wagons CrossTour Reviews

RickyBikes said:
The Watt Wagons CrossTour is a premium hybrid touring eBike starting at $5,599.00 on their website. Based out of Massachusetts, from founder Pushkar Phatak, Watt Wagons is known for their vast customizable options. The stock bikes are expensive as is, and the upgrades are not necessarily cheap, but you can get as personalized a bike as you like with Watt Wagons. The CrossTour is available in three frame sizes (and one custom frame option for an additional fee) and a custom paint job. It utilizes a Bafang mid-drive motor and quality components. Almost every aspect of this bike can be upgraded or customized. From brakes, rotors, lights, seat and handlebars to tires, motor and battery. It really is as personalized as you like. This bike starts as a Class-3 eBike, meaning 750w motor, up to 28mph with pedal assist. With the customizable options (like the 2,300W motor option, for example) this bike quickly falls into a Class-4 legal gray area. Here’s Watt Wagons’ official website http://www.wattwagons.com and I’d love to hear your thoughts below, especially if you own the CrossTour or plan to buy one!





While I haven't reviewed this electric bike myself, I have covered similar E-Bikes and I wanted to provide some insights and open things up for your feedback. I hope providing several sources, with varying perspectives, allows everyone to come to their own conclusions. Sometimes short reviews and those created by shops only cover the good aspects and can come off like a commercial, so I've tried to be neutral and objective with these insights:



Pros – things that stand out as good:

  • The flexibility in choosing your parts is awesome. Watt Wagons lets you pick where you want to add accessories and upgrades as you see fit. For some, the almost unlimited upgrade options could feel overwhelming, but the stock parts are solid, so you don’t have to purchase any upgrades.
  • The bike comes with a 1-year warranty, but you can purchase either a 2-year or 3-year warranty. This is a great feature to offer additional years because depending on how you ride the bike you may need more than just one year of coverge. Considering they’re e-commerce retailer, the added warranty options are a nice consolation for not having country-wide dealers and service centers.
  • If you want a bike that is powerful, this is it. It’s got a huge 160Nm of torque, and the motor size goes from 750W up to 2,300W. Considering it’s a mid-drive, that is an enormous size. I’ve only ridden class-1 mid-drives, so to have a class-3 mid-drive sounds unique and powerful.
  • I’m big on safety features for commuters. The stock headlights, taillights, bell, additional battery option, charger, etc. are definitely important if this is going to be a long range commuter. Smaller tires help in traffic, but overall cars should notice you with the quality lights.
  • The upgraded components program is nice when you spend so much on a bike. You pay a small annual fee and when upgraded components become available, you can purchase them at a discounted rate.


Cons – considerations that seem like trade-offs or negatives:

  • The stock motor makes this a Class-3 eBike, but if you get any of the upgrades, legally, this is no longer an eBike, rather a low-power scooter or moped. Some folks think that bike components make the bike a bike, but unfortunately that is not the legal qualification for an eBike. If it exceeds 750W motor or exceeds 20mph on the throttle or 28mph with pedal assistance than it’s a Class-4 which is where the legal gray area comes in. Depending on the speed capability and power output on the CrossTour its limited where it can legally be ridden. Some bike trails and paths won’t allow for such powerful machines. This bike can get up to 30-50 mph. Wear a helmet, don't use this where it's not meant to be, be safe.
  • I don’t love the integration of the battery and the frame. I understand why they’ve done it the way they have; it allows for the different batteries to be replaced and this bike is more about function than form. It looks a little DIY. Trek, Riese and Mueller, Cannondale, etc., they charge premium prices and it looks like a premium machine. This does not. It looks like a less expensive bike than it is, but again, components within are good quality, it’s a mid-drive and produces a lot of power, but if I’m spending a lot of money on a bike I’d like it to look stealthier.
  • This is a hybrid bike, but it’s also billed as a commuter. I think it’s a little odd that a commuter bike uses fat tires. The 29” x 3” tires (or 27.5” x 4” upgraded tires) are not as agile as most smaller commuter tires. With a commuter I want agility and efficiency. This bike uses bigger batteries to provide better range, but the bigger the battery the heavier it will be, so added weight which will limit range.
  • Depending on the accessory/upgrade options you select, you could end up spending over $10,000.00 for a CrossTour. Although there are some nice components and some quality parts of this bike, part of the cost of premium bikes is found in the service and support provided. For an online bike, this is steep. Large companies like Trek and Giant have dealers and service centers across the country, so there’s a bit to be desired there.
  • From the drive train to the motor to the mezzer pro suspension fork, this bike does not have easily repairable parts. Considering the lack of service centers, you’ll want to make sure your local shop can work on the various components that will inevitably require maintenance.
  • If you add a throttle you will shred your carbon belt and you'll put a lot of strain on the motor. At that point you may as well just get a motorcycle.
  • The display integration leaves a little to be desired. It's big and clunky, but for a commuter that's not necessarily bad. The display itself is fine, but something smaller like what you'd find on an EMTB would make more sense here depending on your terrain.

As always, I welcome feedback and additions to these pros and cons, especially from people who have tried or own the bike. If you see other great video reviews for the Watt Wagons CrossTour, please share them and I may update this post ongoing so we can get the best perspectives and insights.
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You may be confused. The Cross Tour is not 'billed as a commuter' bike. It's an all terrain Touring bike.
Not for LA, for Khyber Pass ... but, it'll do fine in LA too.
I'm at a loss. Nobody I know that commutes uses a Cross Touring e-bike.
If you live in Montana, down 3 miles of unimproved road, work at the Taco Bell in Butte, another few miles down the paved road - maybe.
And that 4" rim can be shod with snow-tires.
WW also produces the Ultimate Commuter, 'narrow frame' that comes w/ street rims and tires. That's their 'commuter' bike.
The CT is able to use 3" street tires and switch to a 4" off-road tire wheelset - not hard if you went 'cassette'. huge cost and major adjustments, tension, alignment if you go anything IGH/ belt driven.
IGH's are fine, commuting - when you can make a call for a pick-up, not so much in the Sahara.
"If you add a throttle you will shred your carbon belt and you'll put a lot of strain on the motor". Okay. Time for a chain.
These bikes are for mature folks (I'm like in my third childhood) with the cash and usually a set plan for what they want.
Mature folks like larger displays.
"The integration of the battery and the frame" is required with Titanium tubing and real wattage and those comparison bikes weigh how much again?
My present machines mini-display (your 'emtb types') is hard to see, read or use.
I'm sure Pushkar will downgrade any order to a dinky screen. The smaller, cheaper, obsolete Bafang types are plentiful.
My research say's that WW is using the best Bafang display available.
Great that you have perfect vision.
I understand the confusion - you being unfamiliar with the 'Titanium/ Ultra' ante to even 'sit in the bleachers' and watch the boys play.
"From the drive train to the motor to the mezzer pro suspension fork, this bike does not have easily repairable parts."
You just dropped by, lacking my plan's agenda. I specially picked a titanium frame and this particular motor.
I can't speak for other owners, but I'm not looking for a manufacturer with a cast aluminum (alloy) frame/ different motor.
Seems WW owns the TI Ultra segment. None of the large, off the shelf companies you named produce a Titanium Ultra.
How does my cassette, derailleur and chain not have "easily repairable parts"?
The IGH's are no different for WW than any bike manufacturer. You buy stuff made in Norway, it breaks, you wait for the reindeer.
No 'get out of Siberia free' pass with any manufacturer using the high-end IGH's.
The fork is a stock fitment. One can order any fork they so choose - that will fit.
The Mezzer's Service Kit is commonly found by using Google, 4,650 hits on the terms "mezzer pro maintenance kit".
I ordered a Mattoc. 200gms lighter and I'm fairly paved road.
200hrs is normal off-road use before overhaul. On-road, double. I ride roughly 40hrs a month = 10 months.
I try to plan for my maintenance. So does WW. They offer a presentation of top-line, installed parts to meet my taste - for that Ti Ultra machine - not sure if the CT is even available now.

Cheers,

Fn'F
 
Shimano XT 8000 11 speed is listed. I'm considering this https://ethirteen.eu/products/trs-plus-11-speed-cassette-gen2 in 9-46 (455%),
W/ a 48T ring. XD or XDR Drivers are required, however and I'm relying on WW for guidance on compatibility.
Quick, reasonable repair cost and availability of all parts being a prerequisite, I'm leery of cutting edge exclusivity, so avoiding anything I can't repair or adjust and really trying to avoid constantly doing different maintenance because the parts wear out on different schedules.
I plan to change the Ring, Cassette, Chain once a year. I'm probably delusional.
A local cycle genius will maintain the tires, wheels, bearings and such. If he'll do it, that includes the fork.
Congrats on your machine. Pretty special club.
There are no problems, only solutions and I know you'll find them.
 
@Fast n' Furious the range on the 8000 derailleur won't be able to cover the 9-46T and get full wrap on the 9T without having clearance issues on the 46T. The 8100 derailleur can and works with the 8000 shifter, or you can swap out the pulley cage with a Wolf Tooth Wolfcage, Garbaruk, OneUp Sharkcage, Ceramicspeed if you like burning money. Different pulley placement. This is true for larger cassettes the other way too like 11-48+ (I have a Shimano 11-51T M5100 cassette & Garbaruk on the way for my M8000)
 
loamoaf said:
@Fast n' Furious the range on the 8000 derailleur won't be able to cover the 9-46T and get full wrap on the 9T without having clearance issues on the 46T. The 8100 derailleur can and works with the 8000 shifter, or you can swap out the pulley cage with a Wolf Tooth Wolfcage, Garbaruk, OneUp Sharkcage, Ceramicspeed if you like burning money. Different pulley placement. This is true for larger cassettes the other way too like 11-48+ (I have a Shimano 11-51T M5100 cassette & Garbaruk on the way for my M8000)
Click to expand...
Good luck finding anything but the Garbaruk. Wolf Tooth and OneUp are discontinued. It’s hard to burn your money up.
 
@Lsthrz yowza I knew about the OneUp though I have come across a couple in stock in some online shops, but I didn't realize the Wolf Tooth is discontinued - bummer but it makes sense that in a pre-squeezed supply chain world you'd just as easily replace your 8000 with an 8100 when you replace cassettes and not need the pulley cage. Garbaruk says 11-50T on an 11-speed but we'll see how it works on the 11-51 with the Garbaruk pulleys as well - my cage & pulleys should be arriving tomorrow but my shifter is still on the way. Doesn't mean I can't test fit for clearance though!

How large of a chainring can the crosstour fit? A 48T with that e18 cassette is going to give a top speed of 39mph at a comfortable 80rpm cadence (average range for recreational cyclist is 60-80, optimal for humans is around 90) on the 27.5x4's. Now for me, honestly 40mph is a pretty good top speed for my commute; I only have a short section between home & the greenway that I have to share with cars and it's all residential or by a school, and I wouldn't go that fast on the greenway with others on it - it goes right to my office. I can 100% see the case for 61mph speeds in rural areas but you'd need over 5400W to achieve that (slick tires, asphalt, 165lb rider weight, 70lb bike+gear weight, no headwind)
at sea level (5000W @ 2500ft a.sl, 4300W @ 6800ft a.sl - CO avg elevation, highest of any state, lucky!) Omnicalculator - cycling wattage

You can use the tool at Bikecalc - Speed at cadence to figure out what setup will be best for you & your bike. My totally unprofessional advice would be find the combo that gives you your desired top pedaling speed at around 100-120rpm since the motor is going to be more efficient the faster it spins, and keeping up a higher cadence for cruising (90-110) is going to pretty easy with an assist level. If you're cruising, doing so at a littl lower speed will be more efficient (less watts spent moving air)

Quick little math here, using 1kW of energy, you can see how dramatically range drops with higher speeds edit this is at sea-level, conditions as described in the prev case
20mph @236W: 84.74mi, 25mph @426W: 58.68mi, 30mph @ 705W: 42.55mi, 40mph @ 1594W: 25.09mi, 50mph @ 3045W: 16.42mi, 60mph @5196W: 11.54mi

1636922014445.png
 
loamoaf said:
@Lsthrz yowza I knew about the OneUp though I have come across a couple in stock in some online shops, but I didn't realize the Wolf Tooth is discontinued - bummer but it makes sense that in a pre-squeezed supply chain world you'd just as easily replace your 8000 with an 8100 when you replace cassettes and not need the pulley cage. Garbaruk says 11-50T on an 11-speed but we'll see how it works on the 11-51 with the Garbaruk pulleys as well - my cage & pulleys should be arriving tomorrow but my shifter is still on the way. Doesn't mean I can't test fit for clearance though!

I have a Garabuk coming (slowly) and also found a used Wolf Tooth. The Ceramicspeeds is only $589 😱 so may have to wait in that a bit. 8100 may be the way to go. Curious to know if all new Hydra owners are seeing the same issue.
Click to expand...
 
loamoaf said:
@Fast n' Furious the range on the 8000 derailleur won't be able to cover the 9-46T and get full wrap on the 9T without having clearance issues on the 46T. The 8100 derailleur can and works with the 8000 shifter, or you can swap out the pulley cage with a Wolf Tooth Wolfcage, Garbaruk, OneUp Sharkcage, Ceramicspeed if you like burning money. Different pulley placement. This is true for larger cassettes the other way too like 11-48+ (I have a Shimano 11-51T M5100 cassette & Garbaruk on the way for my M8000)
Click to expand...
Good info. I'm using D1x shifter. I didn't know the 8100 works for 11sp?
I'm sure I have time to change a few things.
My understanding is a 44T ring is stock.
Cassette is 12x48 perhaps?
Thanks for that link. Great info source!
 
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@Lsthrz my suggestion to @pushkar would be to not ship any bikes with the M8000-RD & a cassette with a tallest cog larger than 46T (he's already stated this what they're doing) and then go back to the 11-50's when M8100-RD becomes more widely available again. Since Shimano is nice enough that the M8100-RD 12spd works great on an 11spd with the M8000 shifters that are still cheap and available then it shouldn't really affect them otherwise. Not to mention with the X1 it's probably smarter to lean towards larger cogs in the rear vs the 9T or 10T unless you absolutely want to trade service intervals and reliability (and range) for top speed; from those Bikecalc charts you are a bonafied motorcycle at that point. Considering wear, HG-freehub availability (including steel freehub bodies), and the range vs cadence vs speed thing it's probably best to stick with 11spd and 11T as the smallest cog. Even on the 11T you only have 6 or 7 of those teeth taking all the force from the motor, which doesn't feel like a lot at 200Nm+

This is where high-power ebikes get way more complicated than bicycles. If the X1/X2 controllers could take a gear sensor input like what Rohloff e14 + Bosch does, and know which gear the bike is in, there can be some torque-limiting on the motor in the smaller cogs to prevent accelerated drivetrain wear/damage from poor-practice from the rider. With a cable shifter this could be an inline hall sensor+magnet setup or something that's indexed with the shifter. With electronic shifters there's definitely already something telling it which gear it's in and possibly already has an output for that signal for other ebike motors on the market. These are the subtle, more difficult features to get into an ebike that would definitely push WW above other enthusiast options if they could work them out - but we're getting into the realm of chasing unicorns here. Still I don't think it's beyond their capability, but probably beyond their capacity right now with how much they have going on and how small of a team they have. I'm sure there's also limitations on the Innotrace side that WW has no power over either.

@Fast n' Furious d'oh I meant the e*thirteen cassette you linked, and I'd double check Shimano's site for the D1x - I do know Garbaruk makes a D1x and an AXS cage as well, I'm not luxurious enough to have to have looked into compatibility with those though and what the derailleurs can fit stock. I plugged the cog numbers from that cassette into the Bikecalc tool for that chart. The principle for all electric motors is the faster they spin up to a certain point the more efficient they are at turning that electric energy into motion. An electric motor generates a back emf that at some speed will be equal to the forward current, and the motor can't spin any faster without higher voltage. Grin's Phaserunner can extend this rpm limit with field-weakening but that pushes the current higher without the voltage and can quickly heat things up - so there definitely is a ceiling, but the motor's efficiency peak is probably higher than our optimum cadence. Spinning the motor/chainring faster to get the same speed also puts less stress on the chain (higher drive rpm for same speed means the same amount of power with less torque - meaning lower forces through the chain). From my amateur note taking on my rides with my hub drive, on a 42x11 top gear (I've got an 11-34T 7spd on that) I can cruise comfortably around 24-26mph on the paved flats with 29x2 tires, guessing from the linked tools I'd say that would have me putting out around 150-180W and the motor is consuming around 150-230W and I can get a pretty great range cruising at that speed. It's definitely more what's best for you - ride style, terrain, desired range. I'm going for 11-51x30T up front but also have a cheapie 40T & 50T to experiment with though I'm sure my riding situation is way different than your. I use that 60-125rpm window in the bikecalc tool for like, 60-90 is what's best comfort/cruise-wise for me, then 95-120 is a sprint/me putting in more effort, and the 125 is showing where you clown-pedal.

Here's a chart showing what I can expect with my setup using a 30T & a 40T chainring. The 30T is definitely more for mountain goatin' and keeping a higher cadence at lower speeds up inclines, but you can see with the 40T in the top 3 gears I have a good cruising range from 22~30mph, and I can still boogie on up to 41mph if I need to give it some sauce - which makes sense because I'll probably wind up setting my X1 to 1000W nominal (1700W peak?). Like I said it's dependant on your needs - and 36mph does sound like a pretty sweet cruising speed, taking into account your handle is Fast n' Furious lol
1636939975749.png


How do you like the D1x? I've seen some videos on the SRAM AXS and it's now wireless and can take a literal hammering and reset its position, but good lord is the price tag eye-watering. I suppose if you go all in on the WW it's best to go all in 😄
 
Fast n' Furious said:
Good info. I'm using D1x shifter. I didn't know the 8100 works for 11sp?
Click to expand...


The derailleurs are kind of 'dumb' - they only do what the shifter tells it to, and the shifter determines the pull ratio. It's a little confusing because of the wording on the product pages, but 11spd shimano shifters will work with their 12spd derailleurs on an 11spd cassette since the ratios are the same between the 8000 & 8100. If anyone is wanting an improved shifting feel too, you'll feel more of a difference going from the 8000 shifter to the 9000 shifter than from the 8000 derailleur to the 9000 derailleur. Of course all that is irrelevant if you spring for the fancy electronic stuff!
 
loamoaf said:
@Lsthrz my suggestion to @pushkar would be to not ship any bikes with the M8000-RD & a cassette with a tallest cog larger than 46T (he's already stated this what they're doing) and then go back to the 11-50's when M8100-RD becomes more widely available again. Since Shimano is nice enough that the M8100-RD 12spd works great on an 11spd with the M8000 shifters that are still cheap and available then it shouldn't really affect them otherwise. Not to mention with the X1 it's probably smarter to lean towards larger cogs in the rear vs the 9T or 10T unless you absolutely want to trade service intervals and reliability (and range) for top speed; from those Bikecalc charts you are a bonafied motorcycle at that point. Considering wear, HG-freehub availability (including steel freehub bodies), and the range vs cadence vs speed thing it's probably best to stick with 11spd and 11T as the smallest cog. Even on the 11T you only have 6 or 7 of those teeth taking all the force from the motor, which doesn't feel like a lot at 200Nm+
Click to expand...
Yes, I'm riding the Hydra ~80% on trail and never getting near the smallest cogs, but the second you hit the street and want to do just moderate speeds this issue hits - and I am talking at only 20 mph or so. There's nothing more disconcerting than shifting into those gears and having the chain jerk on and off or worse-yet, have the chain feel like it's slipped off the smallest cog and have the chain bind up until you can get it to move to the middle cogs.

I'll put the money into the M8100-RD or the Garbaruk cage or something else like the DI2 or Ceramicspeeds -- not thrilled about having to do this of course, but would just like a smooth shifting bike.
 
@Lsthrz you can see here on Garbaruk's illustration what's going on with the derailleur when we're using a cassette with a wider range than it can handle. Don't get the Ceramicspeeds I suggested those a joke! If you want to burn money and be cool get the Kogel's - they're about the same price lol. You can absolutely just go a whole different groupset including the fancy electronic ones before spending that kind of money on a cage & pulleys. I ordered the Garbaruk cage & pulleys (splurge!) from Bike24 for the same price shipped as direct from Garbaruk before shipping - I mostly searched around because Garbaruk didn't have the pulleys ready to ship. If you do go this route, you might as well order some backup Magura brake pads since they're about half USMSRP through an EU retailer. I'll be checking this whole setup with an 11-51T I don't expect any issues even though the product page says 11-50T.
1636945461637.png
 
Loamoak, I'd be the first to admit that I know very little about how derailleurs function, but looking at the cross chaining on my UC Pro I can't help but think that nothing can be done to this derailleur to stop the chain skipping in the cassette's smallest 3 cogs. The chain angle from the front ring to the 11, 13, and 15 rings is huge.

472B6zj.jpg
 
@Deacon Blues you're right the cage won't do anything about the chainline being out of wack. That's gonna be handled by moving the chainring up front outward. The chain should be perfectly straight on the middle cog ~2mm outboard of the middle cog as per the article linked by Jon below. Do you know what your rear axle spacing (hub/dropout width) is? If the frame has fatbike spacing then it would need the fatbike spider, but it's free to check if flipping the chainring to the outside of the current spider fixes that issue. I think the illustrations & discussion around that was covered either in your thread or KW's thread. You can follow this Park Tools guide to ensure you derailleur is set up correctly. I can see why WW is seeking to get some dealers stocking their bikes - if they can get a good distribution network then outside of parts compatibility that would eliminate assembly & shipping issues - the bike's final assembly & setup would be done after shipping at the LBS and customers would go pick it up, so no risk of any issues arising from rough handling. Another benefit is freeing up team WW for more R&D/polish on bikes, of course supplying through a dealer network may or may not raise the price on the bikes.
 
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I definitely want to be cool, lol, but I'll take the cheapest solution first. Appreciate all the good information and input @loamoaf !
 
A handy reference for chainlines from Raceface:

Chainline.jpg


A nice writeup from Wolftooth: https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/pages/boost-chainline-and-chainrings

Interesting quote from that:

If you are running 12 speed, the clearances are so small between chain and cassette that you MUST run a boost spaced chainring with a boost spaced bike. If you don't, the chain will "tick" on the next bigger cog when in the smallest 2-3 cogs on the cassette.
Click to expand...

The center of 11 speed cassette is ~44mm from the centerline of a bike. Why isn't that used as the chainline?" Well, for proper shifting on a 1x setup you want to be at least ~2 mm to the outside (towards the small cogs) otherwise the chain will catch on the next bigger cogs when pedaling in the smaller cogs. So a perfect 1x with minimal cross-chaining in the big cassette cogs is 46-47mm.
Click to expand...
 
@Jon A nice find on the article, makes more sense that it would be a little outboard of the middle cog. That ticking on the larger cog can also cause skipping because the cogs have ramps on them to grab the chain when you shift. Some cassettes have different patterns or more aggressive ramps than others so this could be more or less pronounced depending on whether you're rocking the e*thirteen, Shimano, or Sunrace cassettes.
 
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