Watt Wagons Critical Product Availability Status

[Fast n' Furious]

we had a whole sub forum that felt the same way you do. That was 2 years ago. We were confident it was going to work out. It didn’t.

When things would go quiet, the bad news was right around the corner.

In the end the customer is right. If he needs to ask 10 questions before buying a 10k bike then that is what he needs. It isn’t like you can go to your local bike shop and sit on one and take it for a spin. No you are buying a bike that cost more then my first car based on some pictures from a small bike shop that has literally no idea as to when you will get your bike (that you have already paid full price for) and has recently left a group of 20 people without a bike and slowly getting refunded 1k at a time.

Who's been left getting 'refunded $1000 at a time?
Verifiable facts.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Who's been left getting 'refunded $1000 at a time?
Verifiable facts.

The remaining original Helios founders who didn't go with another bike (UC Pro or Hydra) instead of a refund.
My situation is different, as I had originally ordered two Helios bikes and used part of the money I sent Pushkar to order a UC Pro.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I'm jazzed!
WW's updated page shows 2 UC Pros available.
Unavailability status menu and page are gone.

 

[Zachdds]

Who's been left getting 'refunded $1000 at a time?
Verifiable facts.

No need to rehash all this again.

I love your optimism. I hope you get your bike soon. Many people on here waited 18 months for a bike that never came. The eta on a number of orders seem to be getting pushed out farther and farther. I hope ww has learned from before, but I have my doubts. I personally think ww should stop taking people’s money until the bikes at least ship from China.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

The remaining original Helios founders who didn't go with another bike (UC Pro or Hydra) instead of a refund.
My situation is difference, as I had originally ordered two Helios bikes and used part of the money I sent Pushkar to order a UC Pro.

That is disturbing. I would be.
Still, you're lucky guy. Titanium continues becoming increasingly scarce. Carbon is falling in price and Alloy is too common to appreciate.
Now, it's experience the Titanium, plus still have a Helios - when available !
With timing like that, have you considered working in stock brokerage?
I must say that Helios looks sweet - so, I feel ya.
What's the weight? Not in WW's current Specs on the machine.

No need to rehash all this again.

I love your optimism. I hope you get your bike soon. Many people on here waited 18 months for a bike that never came. The eta on a number of orders seem to be getting pushed out farther and farther. I hope ww has learned from before, but I have my doubts. I personally think ww should stop taking people’s money until the bikes at least ship from China.

Thank you. I feel your sincerity. I've always had my doubts regarding the JIT (Just-in-time) business model. It was assumed 'to big to fail'. Now it's a 'for want of a horseshoe nail ... '.
I too see a lack of transparency issue and that must change.
My situation's different. I can order from China and build, or place my faith in someone who makes a living at it. I'm paying a premium, buying from WW for their experience and organizational skills.
If I become convinced my ordering from China would've produced better results, my satisfaction will plummet.
Obviously, Helios has had troubles from the start. Now, Hydra has produced a flood of orders. Motor's were already Red Flagged.
It would serve owners and prospective owners better if we taking delivery consistently documented such, but then some prefer privacy, so we just don't know.
Is anyone getting deliveries of wide open X1's?
Is Innotrace working yet?
What are delivery dates being provided?
I was told 4 - 6 months for my CT.
Any other CT buyers waiting?

Fn'F

 

[Zachdds]

How were you told 4-6 months waiting time. Took a quick look at website and didn’t see any time frames mentioned for it. The hydra is listed at 120 days.

 

[WaxedWookie]

Edit: I've had a reply from Pushkar on another thread, giving some hope, but not addressing the underlying concerns.

Edit 2: The uncertain update from Pushkar suggested the frame would be painted soon - when I was told it was painted over a month ago. Pushkar's absence in this thread (but presence in others) is not a good look.
_____

Wattwagons' business model is now beginning to feel uncomfortably like a ponzi scheme. From the outside, there's a lot of focus on perpetually pulling in more revenue based on fresh promises and apparent vapourware, but hollow promises then silence once they have your cash.

• The foot is on the accelerator for sales, announcements, and presales of features/products like the Hydra belt drive, PEEK gears, helios and crosstour. These seem to be forever around the corner with no clear explanation as to why deadlines are missed or what's being done about it. No lessons seem to have been learned from the ongoing challenges fulfilling past commitments.
• Pushkar is active on the forum, posting as recently as yesterday about "stealing" people's bike photos for their social media, but nothing to address the concerns in this thread addressed to him.
• Anything relating to order updates - this thread, the status page (so much for weekly updates), support tickets, site chat etc are being ignored (unless it's to ask for more money to avoid further delays... before the delays and silence resume anyway)
• Refunds for the Helios, appear to be trickling out in installments, suggesting solvency issues.

I've said it before (with no response yet), and I'll say it again - @pushkar delays are understandable. This level of communication (particularly given your other activity) is not.

What do I expect?

• Prioritising responses to those you owed bikes months ago over sales and marketing opportunities,
• Proactive updates when you're going to miss deadlines with an explanation of why, what you're doing about it, and what the revised timeline is,
• A regularly updated product status page.

What does great look like? Transparency about status by order number posted publicly so that we can monitor progress ourselves.

Show us where your priorities lay @pushkar - because right now, your visible activity suggests it's with your potential customers, not those you owe bikes. Give us some reason to persist, because I'm getting tempted to just hand this to my bank to resolve.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

How were you told 4-6 months waiting time. Took a quick look at website and didn’t see any time frames mentioned for it. The hydra is listed at 120 days.

Orally, by telephone. Samsung Galaxy - active mod. Amit told me at 5:00est.
A lot more too. He was quite transparent. Things I feel I'm not at liberty to speak about.
A "Quick look at the website" shows nothing's changed. It's right on the site as of 10seconds ago.
Q: "What's the current lead time on UC Pro?
A: "UC Pro has a 4 to 6 month period from order to delivery."
It's okay. Anybody can overlook anything. That's my point.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

How were you told 4-6 months waiting time. Took a quick look at website and didn’t see any time frames mentioned for it. The hydra is listed at 120 days.

Now what? You just ignore that you are incorrect and prone to tossing accusations and move on to the next (NOW SUSPECT) complaint, or continue implying people with integrity are liars? Your a thinking man, why are you starting with then proving your conclusion.
There's the best 'Gotcha' moment" you'll get from me.
My understanding is we are fine, but certain options may not be available. Period.
If I was them, I'd have a lot of orders nearly done and ready to roll - but lets say Innotrace went down - and it was built into the controllers, but required updates? You're sitting there with 100 Hydras near ready to roll, and no software.
If - again let us say - Innotrace estimated they won't be back for a year - at best - what do you do?
You go into seclusion, develop software that works, madly test it and THEN, when you have a SOLUTION, you announce the success.
Too bad more Americans and Aussies don't take up electronics and digital programming. A lot of older Americans can build electronic circuits, know the values by heart and can soup up anything with a capacitor. It's the younger set that's failed with programming, even design skills.
So, we wait &*#@+!!!

 

[Zachdds]

Whoa. Dude. I said I took a quick look and asked where you got the info. I saw the hydra timeframe was listed in the description. Sorry I didn’t read the q&a. I even gave your description a quick thumbs up as though to say thanks for the info. I don’t see anywhere on here where I came after you in any way, but if it makes you feel better I am your huckleberry.

love the fanboy attitude. Really hope you get your bike in the timeframe promised. Quick point of reference for you. I ordered a bike in April 20. I finally got refunded in July 21. The bike is still not made. At one point all our frames were In customs. Be here in 2 weeks. Had shipping info. Don’t worry. Things went quiet deadline came and went. Frames were all gone. Up in smoke, but don’t worry we are now upgrading you to full suspension commuter bike be here in 120 days. Things went quiet. Timeframes came and went and then the word came down. Just another 4 months. Don’t worry this time it will work. Sorry I am slightly more pessimistic. Nothing I have posted on here is incorrect at all. If it is please point it out and I will be happy to apologize.

I too talked to Pushkar multiple times. It is great. They peel back the curtain. Make you feel like you are part of the whole process. Tell you about the cool things in the works. GPS tracker. Electric shifting, full suspension belt. New display that will let you change motor from your phone. M600 controller, light chip. That was all circa summer of 20. As far as I know none of it has actually come out. Not sure what the cool stuff they are working on now.

 

[Zachdds]

If - again let us say - Innotrace estimated they won't be back for a year - at best - what do you do?
You go into seclusion, develop software that works, madly test it and THEN, when you have a SOLUTION, you announce the success.
Too bad more Americans and Aussies don't take up electronics and digital programming. A lot of older Americans can build electronic circuits, know the values by heart and can soup up anything with a capacitor. It's the younger set that's failed with programming, even design skills.
So, we wait &*#@+!!!

Hell no you don’t go into seclusions and hope you come up with a solutions. You owe it to your customers to tell them the truth and let them decide what is best for them. If they want to ride it out great. If they want a bike in a more timely fashion, then refund their money. When did integrity become so difficult? What a joke.

I really hope that is not what they told you during your phone conversation because if so I see business practices like this leading to a quick downfall of their company.

 

[WaxedWookie]

If I was them, I'd have a lot of orders nearly done and ready to roll. (...) You go into seclusion, develop software that works, madly test it and THEN, when you have a SOLUTION, you announce the success.
Too bad more Americans and Aussies don't take up electronics and digital programming. A lot of older Americans can build electronic circuits, know the values by heart and can soup up anything with a capacitor. It's the younger set that's failed with programming, even design skills.
So, we wait &*#@+!!

This sounds unhinged... Weird, baseless confidence, hiding rather than communicating with your creditors, then blaming the consumers because your can't meet the commitments you (theoretically) made?

@Zachdds, the next cool thing is the Hydra belt drive.

 

[Zachdds]

This sounds unhinged... Weird, baseless confidence, hiding rather than communicating with your creditors, then blaming the consumers because your can't meet the commitments you (theoretically) made?

Their products are cool. Their dreams are awesome, but I am guessing something in the fnf comment has some truth to it and if I was in line for a bike I would be really nervous.

Using that example, why would anyone trust ww to figure out the programming for a controller. Let’s be honest so far all they have done is source parts from around the world and slap them together. Even that has produced problems from generic derailers, non optimal chain lines, poor paint and a ton of supply issues.

As far as I know they have not produced a single original item and successfully brought it to market. Now a whole bunch of people are unknowingly playing a waiting game to see if they can develop this needed piece. Some of the founders waited over 18 months playing this game. This isn’t like developing the vaccine where there are no other options. People buy a bike based on the timeframes they were given. They should know as soon as the company does if that timeframe is no longer possible so that they can decide what is best for them and their money.

 

[Acme]

Zach
The problem is a chip shortage. It is affecting everything with electronics. They will be here just not immediately.
Waved, A Ponzi Scheme? Really. In these times of uncertainty businesses need capital to purchase parts when they are available. The just in time economy we have all depended on for so along has failed.

 

[Acme]

Kindernay Oil plug screw.
I did my first oil change and bugger up the screw. Apparently these are hard to get. Pushkar does not have any in stock and I couldn’t find anything except to order direct from Kindernay the screws are $10 but the shipping is $70. I’ve ordered 10 of them. If anyone here would like to have an extra just in case please PM me and I’ll send one to you when they get here for $17.
Gary

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Hell no you don’t go into seclusions and hope you come up with a solutions. You owe it to your customers to tell them the truth and let them decide what is best for them. If they want to ride it out great. If they want a bike in a more timely fashion, then refund their money. When did integrity become so difficult? What a joke.

I really hope that is not what they told you during your phone conversation because if so I see business practices like this leading to a quick downfall of their company.

When did intellectual honesty become so difficult? Why tell me?
"You owe it ..."? Why personify 'me' with anybody. All this thinking your owed this and that. Too much anger for me to trust.
Not answering inferences again, but never implied "they told" me anything specific and nothing I would mention - because of crazies twisting my words, actually.
-
You don't really think I discuss company business strategy with the owners - unlike you, giving advice and demanding this and that ?
I placed an order.
You want to write company charters, get an education in Contract Law.
You have a serious complaint - well, after a long career at this and that, now retired from the legal profession, I can't tell you that.
Whatever you "really hope", it's evident you have an ax to grind and "see" phantoms - like me.
I'll look into this more in depth - in spite of your apparent emotional involvement exceeding my limit of 'irrational'. I advise calm.
Hope you get whatever it is you've ordered soon.
Bye!
-
So far I'm up to date and good to go.
Anyone with a Ti order waiting? UC? CT?
Anybody?

Fn'F

 

[WaxedWookie]

(...) Ponzi Scheme? Really. In these times of uncertainty businesses need capital to purchase parts when they are available. The just in time economy we have all depended on for so along has failed.

Pushkar has had my capital along with his profit margin from the start - I paid in full, and I'm empty handed without explanation. Capital isn't the issue, and if it is, that wasn't communicated to me when I paid up-front, then paid hundreds more for a suspension upgrade to avoid further delays before communication stopped over a month ago. If capital is the issue as you said, I'd argue this is fraud, and if other, more recent buyers' revenue is required to cover my fully paid order, that's the dictionary definition of a ponzi scheme.

I figured Acme would appear when I started voicing my concerns - but this is precisely the issue - I'm getting generic updates from other customers, who have no specific information, not Watt Wagons. If Acme is indeed correct about the capital issue, I should be more concerned not less. Once again though - the delay is less of an issue than the unresponsive lack of explanation

 

[Zachdds]

Zach
The problem is a chip shortage. It is affecting everything with electronics. They will be here just not immediately.
Waved, A Ponzi Scheme? Really. In these times of uncertainty businesses need capital to purchase parts when they are available. The just in time economy we have all depended on for so along has failed.

I assume ww has reached out and passed this info on to the customers waiting on a bike (not just the fan club that already got their bikes) Kept the critical updates page updated? Sent an email? I know that for the founders, we often had to call to get that information, but this whole page was set up so that people would stop calling. The critical updates page said that all orders pre 9/1 had chips. Waxed here says he originally had a shipping date in Aug. Why is he waiting on the chips? What is the current wait time on them?

some of these chip Shortages are supposed to move well into q3 22, and that is for big players with huge purchasing power (ford, Tesla, etc).

acme, you are one of their strongest supporters. Do you not think the waxed wookie here should be kept in the loop about when he can expect to get a bicycle that he has possibly spent $10,000 on last summer? You know with the critical updates page getting updates weekly (like promised) vs every 2-3 months.

how long must a delay go for it to be unacceptable? 1 month, 6 months, year?

I personally feel like as long as you are telling the customer the truth as early as you can so that they can make the best decision on what they want to purchase then there is no timeframe on it. But if you want to stick you head in the ground with the nothing to see here attitude when you know damn well that you are not getting any chips for the next 90 days, 6 months, etc. Shame on you.

 

[Zachdds]

Pushkar has had my capital along with his profit margin from the start - I paid in full, and I'm empty handed without explanation. Capital isn't the issue, and if it is, that wasn't communicated to me when I paid up-front, then paid hundreds more for a suspension upgrade to avoid further delays before communication stopped over a month ago. If capital is the issue as you said, I'd argue this is fraud, and if other, more recent buyers' revenue is required to cover my fully paid order, that's the dictionary definition of a ponzi scheme.

I figured Acme would appear when I started voicing my concerns - but this is precisely the issue - I'm getting generic updates from other customers, who have no specific information, not Watt Wagons. If Acme is indeed correct about the capital issue, I should be more concerned not less. Once again though - the delay is less of an issue than the unresponsive lack of explanation

Didn't you know waxed? The founder's money built Acme's bike. Your money refunded the founders. With any luck at all that F'ing F's money will build yours.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Kindernay Oil plug screw.
I did my first oil change and bugger up the screw. Apparently these are hard to get. Pushkar does not have any in stock and I couldn’t find anything except to order direct from Kindernay the screws are $10 but the shipping is $70. I’ve ordered 10 of them. If anyone here would like to have an extra just in case please PM me and I’ll send one to you when they get here for $17.
Gary

There are no problems. Only solutions .*
I've a lot of nice unneeded Ti fasteners and such I've accumulated. Was even thinking 'we need a WW parts trade page'.
Now second thoughts arise - recalling 'no good deed goes unpunished', contemplating my reaction to being called a fraud, liar or ponzi artist.
I congratulate Pushkar on attaining god like powers to know the future - in the minds of some - but still see him as fallible, subject to time and unforeseen circumstance.
On relevant topic, things seem to be picking up in China. The problem is getting the empty containers shipped back takes 2 months - normally - and we have thousands sitting in ports waiting to be emptied first.
Considering these full containers also are goods to companies that have gone under or are frozen solid by others that have done so, a large portion no longer have a designated delivery point beyond the port. JIT fails at one item, as soon as warehouse fills with other parts, company stops.
Containers are stacked so deep, it's madness getting things in order. This one can't be delivered, but the one six containers down can. Huge timewaster, when it was one after the other out the lot before.
I used to order items from China at least every month. My most recent orders are two months past, double what RockBros used to take.
So I've become twice as patient.
Thanks for positive postings.

Fn'F

*Note: Don't give out Phone Number - or it'll be "Sir? I have a collect call from Tasmania" - at 3:00AM