Watt Wagons Critical Product Availability Status

[TomD]

How do you know he's telling the truth? What valid points?
He accused me of lying. You're okay with him accusing Pushkar of misappropriation of funds and ponzi schemes - while presenting ZERO proof?

I was referring to the substance of the complaint which was lack of response to inquiries. No reason to believe Wookie isn't telling the truth as it's been reported by others, and the same thing happened in the founder forum - pushkar just checked out, for his own mental health. I get that, don't want to see him put a bullet in his head, but some things can't be ignored.

I don't really care about the other petty noise, nobody does.

As far as misappropriation / ponzi shceme, I agree, it's a bit much but I can see how some might go there. I don't believe that's what's going on, and as a founder with $6K invested and still holding out for my Helios, I'm effectively putting my money where my mouth is. Seeing WW switch to a deposit model for new bikes inspires confidence that they're not funding prior bikes from new purchases.

 

[WaxedWookie]

I was referring to the substance of the complaint which was lack of response to inquiries. No reason to believe Wookie isn't telling the truth as it's been reported by others, and the same thing happened in the founder forum - pushkar just checked out, for his own mental health. I get that, don't want to see him put a bullet in his head, but some things can't be ignored.

I don't really care about the other petty noise, nobody does.

As far as misappropriation / ponzi shceme, I agree, it's a bit much but I can see how some might go there. I don't believe that's what's going on, and as a founder with $6K invested and still holding out for my Helios, I'm effectively putting my money where my mouth is. Seeing WW switch to a deposit model for new bikes inspires confidence that they're not funding prior bikes from new purchases.

Totally agree - the switch to a deposit model is certainly an encouraging one - and while it's unfortunately a greater risk to Pushkar and the team, I think it does a lot to address jitters and bad blood as delays arise with the JIT fulfilment model.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I am all confused on why you think we are all picking on pushkar. You seem to be taking my reviews of Watts wagon as some personal attack.

Let me give you an example of my one gripe.
The critical product page states that all chips are here for orders placed before 9/1. A recent post states that Wookie's bike will be shipped soon if the chips come in (his original ship date was in Aug). Wookie has to resort to coming on the board to try to get information on his bike that was supposed to be shipped in Aug. I understand that you have stumbled on here recently, but my problems have never been the delays. They have been the promises on a date and then no follow up when that timeframe comes and goes. I personally dealt with this through 3 renditions of the helios. We started aluminum thought are bike was on the way. Switched to carbon, was told the bikes were shipped and in customs. Switched to full suspension and those were due this month. During each one of those phases, we were led to believe that everything was on track until it wasn't. We had to beg for updates as to where our bikes were that we had paid for months and then a year before. Each time we were promised more transparency. I think it is very fair for Wookie to get an explanation as to exactly what parts of his bike are still missing and what the hold up is. He also deserves as accurate of a timeframe as is possible and the right to be refunded if he is not agreeable to the new timeframe. I do believe that if that courtesy had been extended to the founders the project would still be going on.

That has always been the problem. Timeframes (given by the company) come and go and when that happens the company goes quiet. Yes, it is hard to tell the customers the bad news, but that is what is going to either make WW successful or just another one of the hundreds of companies that have tried to produce ebikes.

How would you feel if in 9 months your bike is not here and you can't get anyone to respond to your request?

Sorry for your travails. Don't think those terms are at all unreasonable and would do well they were in the contract.
Have you ceded to waiting for the next rendition each time, or been simply given no choice?
That new helios looks pretty awesome, but I notice the parts and the availability pages are gone.
I've followed WW for 18 months and only interested in the Ti bikes, so I'm new to the company's prior history or other models.
I and stated my feelings on transparency - when initially posting on this topic. Nothing's changed and I still have every confidence and that verifies it.
I'm glad an answer came in for us all.
Norway and Germany are pulling out of this last wave and air cargo is up.
There's some of our parts.
My UC is ordered 2300watts.
Magura and innotrace are German.
Things are happening.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I am all confused on why you think we are all picking on pushkar. You seem to be taking my reviews of Watts wagon as some personal attack.

Let me give you an example of my one gripe.
The critical product page states that all chips are here for orders placed before 9/1. A recent post states that Wookie's bike will be shipped soon if the chips come in (his original ship date was in Aug). Wookie has to resort to coming on the board to try to get information on his bike that was supposed to be shipped in Aug. I understand that you have stumbled on here recently, but my problems have never been the delays. They have been the promises on a date and then no follow up when that timeframe comes and goes. I personally dealt with this through 3 renditions of the helios. We started aluminum thought are bike was on the way. Switched to carbon, was told the bikes were shipped and in customs. Switched to full suspension and those were due this month. During each one of those phases, we were led to believe that everything was on track until it wasn't. We had to beg for updates as to where our bikes were that we had paid for months and then a year before. Each time we were promised more transparency. I think it is very fair for Wookie to get an explanation as to exactly what parts of his bike are still missing and what the hold up is. He also deserves as accurate of a timeframe as is possible and the right to be refunded if he is not agreeable to the new timeframe. I do believe that if that courtesy had been extended to the founders the project would still be going on.

That has always been the problem. Timeframes (given by the company) come and go and when that happens the company goes quiet. Yes, it is hard to tell the customers the bad news, but that is what is going to either make WW successful or just another one of the hundreds of companies that have tried to produce ebikes.

How would you feel if in 9 months your bike is not here and you can't get anyone to respond to your request?

Germany
Innotrace is available on sale in Germany.
Magura MT7e's are unavailable at Magura's site.
Norway
Kindernay VII is not in stock and says: Axle stubs to fit 142x12mm, 148x12mm, and 135x10mm no fatbikes?
XIV is in stock and the site says: "For 142mm / 148mm / 197mm x12mm and 135mm / 190mm x10mm frames" - fatbikes?
I stand corrected on that.
In the dark about Ti frames or our Motors.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

My rules are the rules you've been defending - Pushkar's rules - payment in full up front. You've already spent a lot of time defending that model - don't go getting cold feet now.

BTC segwit address is bc1qv6y9jwf9kclnlt780ul39p60tzkuvhms4zjzz7
At the current exchange rate, that's. 016 BTC.

Time to put up or shut up - you've already told us you'll get the outcome you deserve. There's nothing else worth discussing.

I look forward to more insanity posting that'll be ignored unless the BTC hits the account - anything else is spineless posturing. Show us you believe what you're saying - that you have principles - that you're not an abject coward.

I'm not in your 'show'.
I represent me. Not WW, My interests.
Older than most'll get to live, best to save your raving at me - for whatever reason - for your peers.
'Accepting things I can't change and seeking wisdom to know the difference', I have my stake and - you say - you have yours.
Your insistence I made a bad choice 'it was all a ponzi scheme' (while nose-holdingly offensive), I considered - but the trash triggered endless red-flags of distaste.
So I speak to 'you' and your shite-for-brains "us" crew: "Coward" is a verb - a reaction to fear. Someone cowers from you? Someone should?
If you're right, should they cower and obey, or just be quiet?
Same as chickens or pigs. "Worlds of Warthogs".
You and "us" folks are the lucky kind - blurting 'you don't know who I am!' as proof that lack of veracity does not count.
Consequences for actions are a distant concept from mom's house or a home business office.
My dreams remain on the bright side, optimism - but you'd demand I bring down my trust, then accuse me of spineless treachery when I don't follow neurotic instructions - cuz' or what? You'll force me?
Your assumption is you inspire fear. You are important.
You act like you are the only one invested in anything, like you represent the opinion of all of us awaiting delivery.
That's why I spoke up. You don't represent me. I don't know you from Adam's housecat.
I encourage you to keep up your arrogance until someone takes you seriously - up close and personal like.
I'm rooting for you and it makes you mad. No doubt. Pretty sad you hate your fan club - that's on your side.
I think you do me and any prospective buyer a a disservice - telling half the story.
You Ceded to waiting. You agreed, now you complain at your own decision.
I send positive energy for success, not nod dumbly to nihilist tripe that breeds suspicion, fear.
We 'effect by our observation - let alone our prejudice.
Hating the thing one craves seems perverse.
-
My comments are purely rhetorical and a scintilla's wit I care about your response.
I know there's some truth behind every myth.
Kind of busy on my end rooting for the winners.
Last of my words for you.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Promises, promises.

 

[WaxedWookie]

@Fast n' Furious you defended the terms presented to you, but when given the opportunity to put up or shut up, you revealed yourself as the worthless unprincipled coward you are, electing instead to spout more meaningless insanity as predicted.

Ignored.

 

[scrambler]

One does not need to have the last word to win an argument.........

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

Not that I agree or disagree with fastnfurious, but his posts are semi-coherent ramblings. He would be much more effective if he wrote clearly and concisely.

 

[tostringtheory]

[...] most everyone shoudl see a formal update on this week.

In terms of updates - we are close to being current on most orders. I dont have a concrete plan on end user communications - we haven't focussed on it over the past 60 days since we finally got the parts and were building as they came in.

We have the process and structure down. Will come back with a plan so we can get statuses out on a weekly basis starting this week.

@pushkar - any update on the formal update? I've not seen any other threads posted, or emails in my inbox (checked junk too).

 

[WaxedWookie]

@pushkar - any update on the formal update? I've not seen any other threads posted, or emails in my inbox (checked junk too).

Unfortunately I've seen no update either. Yet another deadline sails by with no communication.

 

[WaxedWookie]

@pushkar, I see you're online - Any update on the delayed bikes? I've seen no comms, and we're well past your timeline for an update.

 

[Zachdds]

I do not know why watts wagon continues to do this. Stop giving timeframes if you cannot or will not meet them. Constantly setting an expectation and not meeting it is very disappointing.

The last update on here said that they were waiting on motors that would hopefully be in dec. 4th. Wookie, any idea if your motor came in? That was over a week ago.

 

[loamoaf]

I'll just say this. I've been waiting on just a motor/X1 order since mid-July. I received an email 2 days after my order giving me a 2-week lead time. Few weeks passed with no update, I reached out a few times and got a response - another 2-3 weeks, motors were delayed. A simple order update would have been decent. Anyways 4 weeks or so pass with nothing so I reach out again, they tell me my order will ship that Friday (can't remember if I got contact on a Tues or Wed) - and Friday rolls around with no word. Multiple times I asked if I could just order a motor from somewhere else and have it shipped directly to WW, and change my order to the controller upgrade instead of the whole motor (a request ignored each time). I was given the most brush-off, short, replies and they also ignored requests to revert from the 2-day shipping I paid extra for as well. The lack of communication has been absolutely horrible. I ordered a 'backup' M620 from GBK, which showed a 30-35 day lead time for 52V, but my order shipped in about 2 weeks and I received it in about 4 weeks from placing it. Cost of the motor to me was $590 plus shipping - I believe I spent around $850 all in all with some exra wiring harnesses, a display, and a bunch of back up gaskets and I got it in 4-weeks. My WW order was nearly $1900 for a the X1 & all the goodies/warranty/2-day shipping and they're still waiting on a motor for it.

The snow is piling up, the weather is getting better, my fat rims have shipped out. I'm gonna be really bummed if I miss a whole winter of riding in addition to missing out on half of the summer, my birthday, and a whole bunch of unused PTO I was holding on to for said presumed summer of riding that I am now being cashed out on as I move positions after the new year. Not that I want to give Luna my money but if they have a VESC-based solution that works well with the M620 coming out, how much longer can I wait before I cancel my order and go that route? I've honestly asked myself if I even need the fancy controller to which I always answer "yes of course" - but is really it worth all this? I watched people who placed orders after me get theirs shipped out because "the Hydra Black comes shipped from the factory with the M620 installed" - well how is it possible to get a frame shipped with the motor but not the motors shipped? Are you that committed to new orders and getting contracts with the city and making news appearances that you cannot make the effort to arrange for this critical item that's holding up so many orders to be expedited, even if it is at an extra cost to maintain your brand reputation and retain repeat customers?

Lack of communication and management of the critical parts status page (and its ultimate removal) has been the big goof where there could have been a redeeming quality to make the wait a little more bearable. Sorry for the rant, maybe this isn't the space for it, but it's just frustrating to see others going through this and a sore reminder that my birthday present to myself is probably not going to even make the cut for a christmas present to myself or a new year's present. I'm starting to wonder if I really spent another $1400 on fat wheels/tires just to miss a whole winter of riding in the snow after they gave that 10-31 date for motor shipment...

That's all. I'd just like an update and an acknowledgment. My order # is in the low 1400's and it's just for a motor & controller, no frame or painting to hold it up - and I don't see it in that list of orders waiting on motors to ship out, so I'm a little concerned...

 

[slocoach]

I didn't see another post about this, and its only extra information for consideration. On Nov21, some of us received email further below.
In a best-case scenario, I hope you'll have the motor before Jan 30.

Hello there! Thank you for reserving your Hydra Black. We wanted to reach out since we are nearing, and in some cases, well past the original intended ship date. Here is an update on the status of the Hydra Black 1. Fully built bikes were shipped from Asia early September 2022. 2. We have been tracking the shipping timelines closely, and unfortunately we are seeing unprecedented delays. 3. We received word this past Friday, Nov 19th, that the latest shipping timeline puts the bikes past Jan 31st at the earliest, plus time for any customs clearance. 4. With an aim to get you the bikes as soon as we can, we would like to offer you a discounted upgrade path to the regular Hydra. Here are the details of the upgrade : Current stock Hydra price : $6499 + shipping Upgrade Price : $5,999 + shipping, and will include the 1 year warranty. ETA for Delivery of Hydra (made in the US) : Jan 30th If you are interested in switching: Please respond to this email by Nov 30th and let us know. We will work with you on the difference in the invoice and the payment terms. We expect to invoice the last payment by late December when the frames are painted. If you are not interested in switching: No action is required at this time. We will ship you the bikes as soon as they are here. The final payment will be due when your bike is ready to be shipped from the US warehouse. We apologize for the delay in shipping and want to ensure we offer you updates and realistic alternatives. We appreciate your patience in working with us. Cheers, Team Watt Wagons​

Watt Wagons 966 Watertown Street Newton MA 02465 United States​

 

[WaxedWookie]

I do not know why watts wagon continues to do this. Stop giving timeframes if you cannot or will not meet them. Constantly setting an expectation and not meeting it is very disappointing.

The last update on here said that they were waiting on motors that would hopefully be in dec. 4th. Wookie, any idea if your motor came in? That was over a week ago.

I don't think Wattwagons has met a single commitment they've made to me, nor can I get a proper update on the status of my bike. Unfortunately, I haven't the foggiest idea whether or not my motor came in - based on Pushkar's latest update, the bike should now be in transit, but I have a hard time believing that.

 

[Zachdds]

Sad to hear that
Wonder if there was any chance the motors were going to be here last week? I ordered a m600 and m500 motor at different times this summer. Both times they were at my house within 3 weeks. Yet ww can’t seem to get one in for over 6 months.

During the whole founder's process, I must have told 20-30 people about ww and the cool bikes they were making. I would not recommend them now. Short term, you won’t get anything except false promises and long term, who knows. Depends on who is left without a chair when the music stops.

 

[tostringtheory]

@Zachdds - I completely get where you are coming from with respect to telling people and being excited, and then slowly becoming more and more frustrated with the communication/company to the point of becoming a non-promoter, or worse. I'm not saying that I'm going to actively voice negative sentiment (yet), but I'm NOT going to be suggesting friends/acquaintances interested in getting an e-bike to check out WW, without large amounts of warning and hesitation regarding the communication. And I'm not going to recommend it to anyone until my order actually materializes and I am sure it's not just a scam.

The issue isn't new either, I know it bubbled up a bunch over the summer, leading up to @pushkar sending out an email early September about their initiative/drive to get the orders out within a month for those placed before August 1. But there's been no followup to that email further elaborating timelines or holdups.

It's especially concerning when I message him directly (seemingly the only [and most in-efficient] way to gather information from WW) that the information comes back inconsistent. At the beginning of October they were going to begin working on my order over the next week (YAY!). Then, a couple weeks later I hadn't heard anything so checked in again - they were waiting on motors and controllers as the last components (Cool - it's nearly done!). A week later, the motors had come in, but not the controllers. Finally, Nov 29, Pushkar (IN THIS THREAD) updates that the only outstanding part is the motor (the one that came in late oct/early nov?!), and that they were going to rectify/work on communication that week. Two weeks later, NOTHING, and still questions about whether or not the motors (or whatever) came in. Hell, I'd asked a few times now if they could send a picture of the bike as I'm excited to see how the paint choice came out (midnight blue), to which every request has been ignored. At first I just thought they were too busy, but now, I'm questioning it's existence.

I totally get that there are lots of issues outside of Pushkar's control. But the ONE THING that is 100% in his control, is communication, and given that all of these orders/etc are held up due to shipping delays, it sounds like they should have at least SOME time to dedicate to keeping customers up to date, hell - post a tracking number/link to the package you're waiting for so everyone can STOP BOTHERING/PESTERING you.

I know Pushkar said that paying them/bribing/whatever to get an order queued earlier wasn't kosher (good). However, I'm about to the point I want to send him some copies of business management and communication help books, in the hopes that it gets ALL of our orders earlier, or at least an update on our orders before 2022.

Tangent - in the future, tracking and being able to present people more concrete status updates would help mitigate these issues and dissent in public places. This is basically what I was/am looking for, and updated as best as I know [minus some swaps] currently:

Having a tracking system where you could track requested parts, associated orders, associated shipments, etc and automate this would be useful - but I completely recognize that this is beyond where your company is at this point in time. But being able to manually fill out/inform a client when they've dropped 6k+ on a bike seems like a minimal request.

 

[JRA]

@loamoaf moaf "Not that I want to give Luna my money but if they have a VESC-based solution that works well with the M620 coming out"

I don't think that Luna is doing anything about VESC with the M620, only the M600. In fact they made a thing about how it was UART. However it is moot because they are all sold out of Z1's and I would imagine are many months away from resupply due to supply chain demands.

 

[Zachdds]

@loamoaf moaf "Not that I want to give Luna my money but if they have a VESC-based solution that works well with the M620 coming out"

I don't think that Luna is doing anything about VESC with the M620, only the M600. In fact they made a thing about how it was UART. However it is moot because they are all sold out of Z1's and I would imagine are many months away from resupply due to supply chain demands.

It will be interesting to track their supply issues. I know that they restocked the x1 numerous times in the last 12 months.