Vario vs Rohloff on Superdelite with GX option on steep fire roads/trails

[Daffyh]

Well, NOW that I actually have my SD (for the past 3 days!), I can say that the combination of the weight of this beast and the delayed characteristics of the Rohloff take some conscious getting used to. I live at the top of a 20% grade hill for half a mile. Maybe that's nothing for some people, but to have the steepest climb at the end of any long and tiring bike ride, requiring switchbacks across the road on my unassisted road bike, I am SO thrilled to be able to climb this hill straight up in Tour mode in about the 4th or 5th gear of my Rohloff. I get plenty of a great workout, just not a torturous workout. (I have not yet tried the hill in ECO mode in 1st gear, but I will!) I know I could fly up this hill in Turbo mode, so really the whole fuss about which transmission has the lowest gear is pretty meaningless when we have access to so much power assistance, at least with my terrain. BUT, my point here is that I must be conscious of the bike weight and conscious of the Rohloff delay and anticipate the gear I will need before the need arises. On my light road bike, I can make snap decisions of gear when I need it, and the bike is light enough that I just jump off if necessary. Well, my first time up my big hill, I did not anticipate the gear I needed, and I came to a standstill, and then fell over! I guess this is like the difference between sailing a dingy and a 27' sailboat - I must anticipate what I need to do. But already now, on the third day, I am getting very comfortable with all of this. I absolutely love the bike, the full suspension, AND the Rohloff despite its quirks. I find that I prefer to click 2 gears at a time when up or downshifting. There are situations where I have tried skipping 3, 6 or 9 gears at a time, but I haven't mastered it.

As a side note, I finally figured out how to connect KOMOOT with the Kiox display to display route guidance info and to store ride stats via the Bosch eBike Connect app (between the Kiox and KOMOOT app). Not exactly intuitive, and I will post a comment on that elsewhere. But if anyone wants that info sooner before I post it, just ask.
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Yes i didnt like the Rolhoff at first with that gear shift delay even if they say its quick its still a delay that does not really happen with the Enviolo. Since i rode motorcycles most of my life before ebikes I'm always in the right gear and anticipating/knowing what I need before i get to a corner or hill etc.

 

[Daffyh]

Thanks John, I should be getting my SD this week with the Rohloff gearbox. Looking forward to it. How are you finding the Gen4 CX motor?

I'll chime in briefly
Personally for me its night and day my other bike is now almost 2 yrs old with previous gen. CX.
Less noise, superior shifting characteristics, very capable software combo (cx/kiox) and of course a smaller and lighter motor which blends in with the bike much better.
Bosch did their homework and for me its paid off.

 

[AleksR]

Yes, I would surely feel the same about taking the HS model where it isn't invited. But that brings me to an issue that burns me. With a car, I am not banned from a road just because my car CAN go 120 mph. I am told not to drive faster than 35 mph on that road, and that's as fast as I will go if I want to remain lawful. It does not matter how fast the car COULD go if I floored the accelerator. I am in control, and I am responsible for my speed. So WHY isn't the same logic applied to electric bikes??!! Even if my electric bike can go 500 mph, if the posted maximum speed is 15 mph, then that is as fast as anyone can legally go. In short, the electric bike laws should be about following the posted speed, NOT about the capabilities of the vehicle! If I can drive a Ferrari legally down any 15 mph road by staying within the posted speed limit, then I should be able to drive a HS e-bike down any 15 mph bike path by staying within the posted speed limit. And regarding enforcement, if an officer is present to tell me that I have the wrong ebike, then that same officer could enforce the max speeds instead. Discussion anyone? Am I missing something?

amen!!

 

[AleksR]

I have two Nevo, one with a Rohloff and the other with an Enviolo. They live in opposite ends of the country but both locations have very steep hills to deal with. There has not been a hill that the Enviolo could not go up and deals with gear shifting (actually no gears so maybe ratio changing is a better description) on hills much smoother than the Rohloff.

see Marc from Paris that covered over 30,000 miles from Europe to Vietnam on Enviolo. Zero problems over mountain ranges.

 

[AleksR]

Hi, I've recently ordered a Superdelite with Vario gearing and GX option. My plan is to use the bike for 50% touring and 50% mountain biking (on some steep fire roads/trails -- nothing particularly technical (but steep grade)). I'm wondering how well the Vario can handle steep fireroads/trails -- whether the Rohloff would present a significant difference over the Vario that a little extra muscle on the Vario can't handle. I'm also wondering whether the recently announced firmware update to the Bosch motor might help to mitigate the difference. Would greatly appreciate advice, since perhaps it's not too late to change my order.

i feel like a dinosaur on my supercharger2 with shimano derailer. But I have no problems with hills.

 

[Jay Kay]

I have the 2020 Delite GX Vario with Fox and ride 80% trails (forest tracks, fire breaks and blue singletrack) and my steepest climb I have done (it occurs on most of my routes) is a road sign posted at 27deg and the vario does the trick. For my style of riding this combo works great. but if I did more road cycling, wanted faster speeds (I tend to cruise around 18km hour on trails and 25km/hr on roads) or were carrying more than my 85kg body weight my guess is the Rohloff would be the superior choice.

 

[John2911]

This is an update on the SD owner in Luxembourg who tested his Vario riding up a 20% grade before and after the 85 nm software update, one video for each test. These are short 1-minute videos.
First test:

Second test:

SPOILER: Surprisingly, he found no noticeable difference in his ability to climb the grade with 85 nm.

 

[Mike Owen]

Gearing Range …

For the moment, let's ignore how the gears change – derailleur, CVT, IGH – and concentrate on the gearing range of each option.

These figures indicate how far the Delite will travel for each revolution of the pedals. (Based on R&M's website, but simplified.)

• Derailleur
  2.0 m — 8.5 m
• Enviolo
  2.5 m — 9.5 m
• Rohloff
  2.0 m — 10.0 m

Obviously, the Rohloff's the winner with both the lowest and highest gearing… or is it?

I think not.

For ultra-low gearing, usability is paramount. The derailleur wins hands-down because it is so easy to click from one low gear to the next – both up and down. With a derailleur, there's no need to ease off the pedals; within limits, that's what you mustn't do when the going gets tough! We've come back to the how gears change!

I have no experience of CVT transmissions, so I cannot comment on the Enviolo's 'shifting'. That said, I should add that I seldom use my Rohloff's lowest gear and when I have done so it's from curiosity rather than necessity. The Enviolo's lowest 'gear' would be okay for me.

For high gearing, speed is paramount. Each of us will need to decide how fast we want to travel and how rapidly we want to spin the pedals. Again, I seldom use my highest Rohloff gear; when I have done so, it's usually been for crazy-fast descents!

My opinions are based on 18,000 km on a 2019 R&M Homage GX with Rohloff E-14 (25 km/h EU spec.) which, so far as this discussion is concerned, is not substantially different from the Delite.

Thanks David.

This is the best post I’ve read on EBR R&M forum in months. Your clear explanation of the Gear Ratio in metres is like a eureka moment. Now I finally understand.

Every post on this forum cunjuring the benefits of the three drivetrain options should link back to your post here.

Simplicity... often strived for, rarely acheived.

Thanks

 

[Jay Kay]

I am looking at the Superdelight Mountain Rohloff and it has different gearing ranges again. Has anyone ridden the two versions of the Rohloff and can comment? It looks to have lower gearing accross the board compared to the ‘standard’ Rohloff?

1.5m - 8.4m

@David great info as usual.

Edit: just worked out (doh!) it isn’t the Rohloff that changes the gear ratio on the Mountain, but the chain ring size - 50T on the Mountain, 60T on the Superdelight.

 

[geoff1]

Only somewhat related to prior posts...

About a week ago, I finally received my Superdelite with the vario belt gearing, GX, and smartphone hub. My intention was to use this about 50/50 for touring and riding on fire roads (sometimes quite steep (30%+ grade) and occasionally quite rocky (with ~6” - 8” diameter rocks). I’ve now ridden about 100 miles with the bike, and have some thoughts about my initial post with regard to gearing and Vario vs Rohloff as well as some other posts about the smartphone hub.

Note: I used to ride a mountain bike regularly in similar terrain that I’ve taken the superdelite — one of my knees wasn’t appreciating the torque, so I decided to make the investment in an e-bike with long range potential (1125 wh on the superdelite) and front and rear suspension.

1. On several occasions with perhaps a 35% grade on sometimes narrow trails and other times fire roads with large rocks, I’ve had to get off the bike and push it up. The first time I did this, I hadn’t discovered the powered walk function. The second time I did discover that function, but it didn’t help much. A heavy bike and pushing it up a steep grade wasn’t easy (I’m a pretty fit 72-year-old). If I had it to do over again, I would probably have ordered a Rohloff gearing (or simply the standard chain drive).

2. On fire roads with 25% grade or less, I’ve very much enjoyed the bike. I’ve also appreciated the bike on steep paved roads, of which there are many in the Northern CA area in which I live.

3. On one occasion when trying to navigate up a steep/rocky firewood, I crashed. Cut my knee (not terrible), mirror broke off, water bottles dislodged, but my trusty iPhone stayed on the smartphone hub and was undamaged. In order for the iPhone to fit securely on the hub, I removed the case. Turned out to be a good idea.


4. Overall, though a mixed review, I figure that I’ll accommodate to the bike’s capabilities — less ambitious grades and trails and more touring through interesting country on fire roads, roads, and bike paths.

 

[Jay Kay]

I have the 2020 Delite Vario GX with Fox. I agree with your comments. A 35% grade would be VERY challenging with the Vario. I think the steepest climb I have on one of my regular routes is 30% and the Vario is enough (with effort) for me to get to the top. I am less happy with the smartphone hub - it rattles and has thrown a 504 error 3 times on my bike and once on my wifes (Homage with completely different equipment and motor - only thing in common is the smartphone hub) The 504 error supposedly means we have modded our bikes ( which we haven’t!) and the motor gets disabled! My thoughts are there is a significant software bug which so far R&M and Bosch are being tardy to address.

 

[Dionigi]

Where are all these 30% grade roads? Here is the list of the steepest streets in USA.
Steepest streets in the USA
I’ve rode up two on this list with a Nevo equipped with the Enviolo , it wan’t easy. Daily I ride 17 to 20% grades which seems steeper than most would encounter. If uphill mountain biking is your interest there might be lighter more capable options.

 

[geoff1]

for me the 30%+ grades are short parts of mountain bike trails in the East Bay (of the San Francisco Bay area). I get grade information from Komoot. An additional problem for me (and my recent fall) is navigating small boulders on the steep upgrades.

 

[Dionigi]

for me the 30%+ grades are short parts of mountain bike trails in the East Bay (of the San Francisco Bay area). I get grade information from Komoot. An additional problem for me (and my recent fall) is navigating small boulders on the steep upgrades.

I’m not sure if the Rohloff would be much better, it certainly is geared lower but with that level of incline and trail roots and rocks it takes a high level of skill, traction and youth. The bike geometry also comes into play.

 

[geoff1]

yeah... I expect that you're right about the Rohloff. An aging body and a less maneuverable bike is leading me to tailor my riding ambitions to somewhat better groomed fire roads (at least on steep grades) and touring through the SF Bay area with its extraordinary geography (and wine country). I do much appreciate the 1125 wh, the suspension, the smartphone hub.

 

[Jay Kay]

Where are all these 30% grade roads? Here is the list of the steepest streets in USA.
Steepest streets in the USA
I’ve rode up two on this list with a Nevo equipped with the Enviolo , it wan’t easy. Daily I ride 17 to 20% grades which seems steeper than most would encounter. If uphill mountain biking is your interest there might be lighter more capable options.

Here is one of my sign posted steep grades I ride reagulary before the road finishes and the trail begins. I have to zig-zag one other un-sign posted road which feels much steeper. One other un-sign posted gravel road (one way going downhill) was too tough for me going up and I stalled half way up and fell off. My home town of Dunedin has the steepest street in the World according to Guiness Book of Records - Balwyn St. My vario Delite would struggle with that one! There are plenty of steep roads out there...and a ton of fire trails too. For various reasons I am looking to upgrade my Delite Vario to a (stripped down) Superdelite Rohloff and am curios to see what differences it makes for my climbs.

PS My wife has the Homage Vario and goes up this 23deg road in sport and smiling! Overall weight makes a huge difference to what can and cannot be climbed. I would bet my eldest child that she could go up Balwyn St using turbo!

 

[Jay Kay]

I ride a 23deg road regularly before hitting the trails (80% trail riding/20% road riding). My steepest climb is an estimated 30 deg max, and I have to zig zag to get up with my 2020 Delite Vario, in turbo, and red faced from exertion. My eife has the 2020 Homage with Vario, and goes up that 23deg slope only using Sport mode, and she smiles/talks while she does it - she is 30kg lighter than me and the Rohloff (and Gen 4 motor) are wasted on her.

So the real answer lies in your body weight. My best guess if you are 75kg or under, the vario will tackle almost any hill except the steepest. The heavier you are over this weight, the more the Rohloff will assist on tough climbs.

I am 85kg.

One advantage of the Rohloff is much less drag/loss of power transmission. You will get more mileage out of your batteries with the Rohloff by approx. 10%. But with dual batteries you MAY struggle to use all the charge anyway.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

23º ≈ 42.5% slope
30º ≈ 57.5% slope
45º = 100% slope
90º = ∞% slope

 

[Dionigi]

I ride a 23deg road regularly before hitting the trails (80% trail riding/20% road riding). My steepest climb is an estimated 30 deg max, and I have to zig zag to get up with my 2020 Delite Vario, in turbo, and red faced from exertion. My eife has the 2020 Homage with Vario, and goes up that 23deg slope only using Sport mode, and she smiles/talks while she does it - she is 30kg lighter than me and the Rohloff (and Gen 4 motor) are wasted on her.

So the real answer lies in your body weight. My best guess if you are 75kg or under, the vario will tackle almost any hill except the steepest. The heavier you are over this weight, the more the Rohloff will assist on tough climbs.

I am 85kg.

One advantage of the Rohloff is much less drag/loss of power transmission. You will get more mileage out of your batteries with the Rohloff by approx. 10%. But with dual batteries you MAY struggle to use all the charge anyway.

I’m in the same situation, my wife also has greater ease riding up steeper grades. Although she is a life long cyclist and exercises much more than me and is also considerably lighter. I have the same bike (Nevo) in both the Enviolo and Rohloff and just don’t buy the marketing point advantages of the Rohloff hub. I feel for top speed and efficiency the Rohloff is superior but for hill climbing with the Rohloff you better be in the lowest gear needed for the steepest incline section otherwise you will lose all momentum and stall. Also I’m note sure if my like to steepest USA streets worked on a previous post, so I’ll try again

 

[Jay Kay]

I’m in the same situation, my wife also has greater ease riding up steeper grades. Although she is a life long cyclist and exercises much more than me and is also considerably lighter. I have the same bike (Nevo) in both the Enviolo and Rohloff and just don’t buy the marketing point advantages of the Rohloff hub. I feel for top speed and efficiency the Rohloff is superior but for hill climbing with the Rohloff you better be in the lowest gear needed for the steepest incline section otherwise you will lose all momentum and stall. Also I’m note sure if my like to steepest USA streets worked on a previous post, so I’ll try again

Worked this time @Dionigi