Vario vs Rohloff on Superdelite with GX option on steep fire roads/trails
- Thread starter geoff1
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Thanks for sharing the info? Can you tell me how long you waited for the bike? Thanks much.
D
Deleted member 18083
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Gearing Range …
For the moment, let's ignore how the gears change – derailleur, CVT, IGH – and concentrate on the gearing range of each option.
These figures indicate how far the Delite will travel for each revolution of the pedals. (Based on R&M's website, but simplified.)
I think not.
For ultra-low gearing, usability is paramount. The derailleur wins hands-down because it is so easy to click from one low gear to the next – both up and down. With a derailleur, there's no need to ease off the pedals; within limits, that's what you mustn't do when the going gets tough! We've come back to the how gears change!
I have no experience of CVT transmissions, so I cannot comment on the Enviolo's 'shifting'. That said, I should add that I seldom use my Rohloff's lowest gear and when I have done so it's from curiosity rather than necessity. The Enviolo's lowest 'gear' would be okay for me.
For high gearing, speed is paramount. Each of us will need to decide how fast we want to travel and how rapidly we want to spin the pedals. Again, I seldom use my highest Rohloff gear; when I have done so, it's usually been for crazy-fast descents!
My opinions are based on 18,000 km on a 2019 R&M Homage GX with Rohloff E-14 (25 km/h EU spec.) which, so far as this discussion is concerned, is not substantially different from the Delite.
For the moment, let's ignore how the gears change – derailleur, CVT, IGH – and concentrate on the gearing range of each option.
These figures indicate how far the Delite will travel for each revolution of the pedals. (Based on R&M's website, but simplified.)
- Derailleur
2.0 m — 8.5 m - Enviolo
2.5 m — 9.5 m - Rohloff
2.0 m — 10.0 m
I think not.
For ultra-low gearing, usability is paramount. The derailleur wins hands-down because it is so easy to click from one low gear to the next – both up and down. With a derailleur, there's no need to ease off the pedals; within limits, that's what you mustn't do when the going gets tough! We've come back to the how gears change!
I have no experience of CVT transmissions, so I cannot comment on the Enviolo's 'shifting'. That said, I should add that I seldom use my Rohloff's lowest gear and when I have done so it's from curiosity rather than necessity. The Enviolo's lowest 'gear' would be okay for me.
For high gearing, speed is paramount. Each of us will need to decide how fast we want to travel and how rapidly we want to spin the pedals. Again, I seldom use my highest Rohloff gear; when I have done so, it's usually been for crazy-fast descents!
My opinions are based on 18,000 km on a 2019 R&M Homage GX with Rohloff E-14 (25 km/h EU spec.) which, so far as this discussion is concerned, is not substantially different from the Delite.
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Thanks very much for this, David. The numbers and your experience make the comparisons clear and useful, at least as far as choosing an option on the SuperDelite goes! I had ordered a SuperDelite with the Enviolo with plans for steep grades on dirt roads, and worried that I'd made a choice that I'd ultimately be unhappy with. Turned out that I was too late to change the order to the Rohloff, but given what you've written, I should be just fine, especially with the firmware update. I know at least one other person on the site had a similar concern.
John2911
Member
@PNWRich, I ordered in early May, and I have yet to get my bike, which should be this Thursday if all goes well. So, 11 weeks or so? That matches what they told me to expect.
And those are interesting points by @David Berry about the transmission tradeoffs. Likewise, I really prefer many features of a derailleur, but I’m done with chain upkeep, and there is the drawback that the chain must move in order to change gears. Lots of pros and cons, and local terrain is a big factor. All in all, I believe the weighting of the tradeoffs is entirely personal.
We went Rohloff. We want to do some touring and perhaps because I have a novice brain, I didn’t want to deal with the higher risk of maintenance while on the touring rode, plus my wife really like the simplicity of gear shifting and the now 85Nm of torque certainly helped too. Now to decide if we keep the MotoX tires or go tubeless and that’s another thread on here already, Three more weeks for the bike would suck as we were told about 6-8 weeks at most.
John2911
Member
It's hard to know what options to get when we really don't know how we will settle in and end up using such a fantastic machine. I pretty much ordered every option including GX, and I am a bit concerned that I could end up with too much road use on knobby tires. But the worst would be that I change the tires down the road. Everything else I know I will use and enjoy. Good luck with your speedy delivery!
Yes, I am with you John. In the end I went for the SD GT Rohloff standard speed. The dealer wanted me to get a HS model, but I am glad now that I did not as I would be riding along with the thought of being illegal (UK), and that would ruin every ride for me, regardless of how slim the chances of being caught were. I went for the Kiox (to be changed to the Nyon v2 when available), 1125 batteries, GX, standard rear rack and no front rack, fox float suspension. The dealer is going to change the tyres back to standard non GX tyres as I don't like the GX ones, but liked all the other GX options. He is also (hopefully) going to retrofit the horn that goes on the HS model. My bike should be with me soon. The Rohloff just appealed to me with its electronic shifting and no chain.
John2911
Member
Yes, I would surely feel the same about taking the HS model where it isn't invited. But that brings me to an issue that burns me. With a car, I am not banned from a road just because my car CAN go 120 mph. I am told not to drive faster than 35 mph on that road, and that's as fast as I will go if I want to remain lawful. It does not matter how fast the car COULD go if I floored the accelerator. I am in control, and I am responsible for my speed. So WHY isn't the same logic applied to electric bikes??!! Even if my electric bike can go 500 mph, if the posted maximum speed is 15 mph, then that is as fast as anyone can legally go. In short, the electric bike laws should be about following the posted speed, NOT about the capabilities of the vehicle! If I can drive a Ferrari legally down any 15 mph road by staying within the posted speed limit, then I should be able to drive a HS e-bike down any 15 mph bike path by staying within the posted speed limit. And regarding enforcement, if an officer is present to tell me that I have the wrong ebike, then that same officer could enforce the max speeds instead. Discussion anyone? Am I missing something?
Agree. There are component upgrades still possible but those will come if necessary for the kind of riding we end up doing. Of course could get a 2021 Delite Mountain.
Squaxor
Active Member
I agree that the speed restriction doesn't make much sense. Some ultra-fit people on a carbon fibre bike can reach incredible speeds. Should we insist they drag an anchor to stop them potentially going fast? should all car motors be regulated to never exceed 70 MPh? If we allow people to drive heavy, noisy, polluting cars without any limits on speed why limit far less dangerous machines? Surely there should be one rule for all? In the UK they allow motorbikes of any engine size to use the cycle lanes.
To contradict myself... I have some reservations about ultra-powerful electric bikes of the future sharing the narrow bike lane with me. In theory, people should stick to the limit, but you just know that some idiots will be going too fast because the technology allows them to. Limiting the speed of bicycles wasn't an issue prior to the emergence of the modern electric bike.
In conclusion, I would prefer to trust that most people are sensible and, therefore, should be allowed to purchase eBikes without low-speed restrictions.
To contradict myself... I have some reservations about ultra-powerful electric bikes of the future sharing the narrow bike lane with me. In theory, people should stick to the limit, but you just know that some idiots will be going too fast because the technology allows them to. Limiting the speed of bicycles wasn't an issue prior to the emergence of the modern electric bike.
In conclusion, I would prefer to trust that most people are sensible and, therefore, should be allowed to purchase eBikes without low-speed restrictions.
Dionigi
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Santa Cruz & Pittsburgh
I have two Nevo, one with a Rohloff and the other with an Enviolo. They live in opposite ends of the country but both locations have very steep hills to deal with. There has not been a hill that the Enviolo could not go up and deals with gear shifting (actually no gears so maybe ratio changing is a better description) on hills much smoother than the Rohloff.
I went with the Rolhoff because of this, the Vario is a great setup just doesnt have the same % gearing range its great on steep hills
John2911
Member
Well, NOW that I actually have my SD (for the past 3 days!), I can say that the combination of the weight of this beast and the delayed characteristics of the Rohloff take some conscious getting used to. I live at the top of a 20% grade hill for half a mile. Maybe that's nothing for some people, but to have the steepest climb at the end of any long and tiring bike ride, requiring switchbacks across the road on my unassisted road bike, I am SO thrilled to be able to climb this hill straight up in Tour mode in about the 4th or 5th gear of my Rohloff. I get plenty of a great workout, just not a torturous workout. (I have not yet tried the hill in ECO mode in 1st gear, but I will!) I know I could fly up this hill in Turbo mode, so really the whole fuss about which transmission has the lowest gear is pretty meaningless when we have access to so much power assistance, at least with my terrain. BUT, my point here is that I must be conscious of the bike weight and conscious of the Rohloff delay and anticipate the gear I will need before the need arises. On my light road bike, I can make snap decisions of gear when I need it, and the bike is light enough that I just jump off if necessary. Well, my first time up my big hill, I did not anticipate the gear I needed, and I came to a standstill, and then fell over! I guess this is like the difference between sailing a dingy and a 27' sailboat - I must anticipate what I need to do. But already now, on the third day, I am getting very comfortable with all of this. I absolutely love the bike, the full suspension, AND the Rohloff despite its quirks. I find that I prefer to click 2 gears at a time when up or downshifting. There are situations where I have tried skipping 3, 6 or 9 gears at a time, but I haven't mastered it.
As a side note, I finally figured out how to connect KOMOOT with the Kiox display to display route guidance info and to store ride stats via the Bosch eBike Connect app (between the Kiox and KOMOOT app). Not exactly intuitive, and I will post a comment on that elsewhere. But if anyone wants that info sooner before I post it, just ask.
As a side note, I finally figured out how to connect KOMOOT with the Kiox display to display route guidance info and to store ride stats via the Bosch eBike Connect app (between the Kiox and KOMOOT app). Not exactly intuitive, and I will post a comment on that elsewhere. But if anyone wants that info sooner before I post it, just ask.
John2911
Member
I have the speed motor, not the CX. The motor has the 85nm software update, but I have no other Bosch experience to draw a comparison. It’s fantastic, that’s all I can say. I’m sure you’ll be very pleased. I am finding more to learn and get used to than I expected.
John2911
Member
I’m in Northern California’s “wine country.”
John2911
Member
It’s nice here in many ways. But unfortunately bike-friendliness is not one of them, though I think they are trying to do better. We have only a few cycle paths, with most destinations requiring bikes right next to high speed car traffic. But there are a few gorgeous less-traveled routes if I plan them out. We have a commuter train where the plan is to lay a full-length cycle path next to it. But right now the bike way is hit or miss.
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