Throttle wheelies

[Gionnirocket]

OK so what am I missing?

The controller as-reported can accept signals from a range of 1.1v to 4.2v. The throttle of your choice either does that, or does something different and we know not precisely what unless you test it. With that said, the range remains 1.1v to 4.2v regardless of what the throttle does. So if the throttle has a wider range top and bottom (or either side), the controller will not act on values outside of its accepted range. It will act on values inside of its range, so if the throttle has a smaller value on either end, thats what the controller will use. So lets say we set a range of 11 and 42. If the throttle has the ability to signal a range of 8 and 42, the motor will not act on 8-10.99 but will act on 11-42. Likewise if the throttle has a range of 8 to 40, the same holds true, (i.e. response begins at 11) but the max throttle will be the max the mechanical device is capable of registering. So effective range will be 11-40 thanks to the hardware limitation regardless of the values in the BBSHD settings interface.

On the other side of the fence, if the controller in fact supports a wider range than 11-42, the same sort of limits will govern. In the end, to fully know the edges of the envelope, so to speak, you have to test both sides.

In my case I am taking it as a given the limits are as stated on the motor side as I haven't heard of any test that finds to the contrary.

Please show me where it says that the controller accepted range is from 11 - 42?... as it doesn't say it in the article that you referenced or anything I've ever read.

This is what I believe to be true and what is also said and understood from the article that you referenced.
Start Voltage(x100mv): This is minimum voltage that enables throttle operation. Generated by Throttle Thumb controller on you handle bar. Different throttle controllers output different voltages at rest/off. Set to low and the display will throw an error as the motor will want to run continuously. If you change the throttle you will need to find the new lowest setting.

End Voltage(x100mV): This is maximum throttle output voltage that controller will accept. It should be matched to throttle MAX position output voltage. Best way to do so is to take some reading with multimeter at throttle socket while pressing throttle to MAX. Throttle operating span will be calculated as End Voltage – Start Voltage = Voltage Span that represent 0-100% throttle control.

That said I know that the controller accepts a voltage of 0.9v as when set to this using my current throttle it engages earlier, meaning I have to turn it less before the motor starts. When set to 1.1v I have to turn the throttle additional mm's to get the motor to engage.

So as stated earlier, you may be relying on older controller information.

 

[Dynz]

On ebikes you need to disconnect the brake sensors to wheelie. Otherwise its hard (impossible) to modulate the power and braking.

yeah never did install them tbh

 

[Dynz]

I don't know if anything ever came of this, but it sure rocked the house when the video (link in the thread) came out. Looked like it was just about ready for market and then Covid.

I think I read about this project!

 

[Gionnirocket]

yeah never did install them tbh

One method to wheelie may be is to set the throttle Designated Assist Level to By Displays Command
This way you can try different speed/current levels from the Basics page and when you find a good combination you won't have to try and modulate the throttle.. You can just peg it to be at the desired sweet spot

 

[m@Robertson]

Please show me where it says that the controller accepted range is from 11 - 42?... as it doesn't say it in the article that you referenced or anything I've ever read.

What? good grief. Here:

Start Voltage(x100mv): 11\11\11\11\11 – The is the throttle input starting voltage, the point at which the controller responds to input is at 1.1 volts, so set value to 11 which = 1.1 volts. As you begin to roll on the throttle the voltage moves up from zero and when it reaches 1.1v the motor begins to turn.

Thats pretty clear, right? And simple. So is this.

End Voltage(x100mV): 35\35\42\35\35 – You can set the max range to 42 which is the max input the controller accepts from throttle input 4.2v. If you set lower than this value your throttle response is not as linear or smooth as it could be. Matt suggests you set start voltage to 11 and end voltage to 4.2 for a wider range of throttle response and smoother control of motor output.

I added the boldfacing but otherwise these are direct copies/quotes. And the Matt mentioned in there who uses 4.2v is not me.

This is real simple. And as I said, I know of no one who has tested or otherwise demonstrated the Bafang controllers have changed with respect to the minimum and maximum accepted values. If someone has then great. I'd be curious to see that described and documented. But for now as recently as a couple of months ago, production BBSHDs are unchanged. Or at least the ones I have bought are no different than the ones I bought a few years ago.

And everything I said about the range of an 'aftermarket' throttle possibly affecting this holds as well. No change there.

 

[Gionnirocket]

What? good grief. Here:

Thats pretty clear, right? And simple. So is this.

I added the boldfacing but otherwise these are direct copies/quotes. And the Matt mentioned in there who uses 4.2v is not me.

This is real simple. And as I said, I know of no one who has tested or otherwise demonstrated the Bafang controllers have changed with respect to the minimum and maximum accepted values. If someone has then great. I'd be curious to see that described and documented. But for now as recently as a couple of months ago, production BBSHDs are unchanged. Or at least the ones I have bought are no different than the ones I bought a few years ago.

And everything I said about the range of an 'aftermarket' throttle possibly affecting this holds as well. No change there.

So when I say that the controller does respond to 0.9v... you are saying that it is not a demonstration otherwise?
You're stuck and that's fine with me.

 

[m@Robertson]

You are deliberately dodging. You made a specific request for me to show you where it says X, and stated unequivocally the article said no such thing. So I showed you EXACTLY where it said EXACTLY what I said it did. Here lets repeat it

Please show me where it says that the controller accepted range is from 11 - 42?... as it doesn't say it in the article that you referenced or anything I've ever read.

So I showed you where it says the controller accepts a range from 11-42 and it obviously does say that in the article you where claimed it did not.

And I just tested two different bikes with two different controllers. On one, with an aftermarket throttle, it instantly threw an error when I tried to use it after setting to a minimum of 0.9v. That could be the throttle. So I tested a different bike with a Bafang throttle. It accepted values down to 0.8v... but its output was no different than when it was set to 0.8v, 0.9v, 1.0v and 1.1v. so it is behaving exactly as expected, and as defined in what has essentially been the bible for BBSxx programmers for years.

As you begin to roll on the throttle the voltage moves up from zero and when it reaches 1.1v the motor begins to turn.

And thats exactly what it did. I was able to set the throttle quite a bit lower. But it was wasted effort because the output in watts (about 50-100) and amps (a steady 0.5-1.0) was unchanged. No doubt my display was rounding as well, but the results were nonetheless easily recognizable as unchanged both on the screen and doing something I'd rather be doing: riding.

Regardless, it seems you want to be snooty and play games. So fine go ahead but you are playing with yourself. I'm all for intellectual discourse but not when one of the players is being disingenuous.

 

[Gionnirocket]

You are deliberately dodging. You made a specific request for me to show you where it says X, and stated unequivocally the article said no such thing. So I showed you EXACTLY where it said EXACTLY what I said it did. Here lets repeat it


So I showed you where it says the controller accepts a range from 11-42 and it obviously does say that in the article you where claimed it did not.

And I just tested two different bikes with two different controllers. On one, with an aftermarket throttle, it instantly threw an error when I tried to use it after setting to a minimum of 0.9v. That could be the throttle. So I tested a different bike with a Bafang throttle. It accepted values down to 0.8v... but its output was no different than when it was set to 0.8v, 0.9v, 1.0v and 1.1v. so it is behaving exactly as expected, and as defined in what has essentially been the bible for BBSxx programmers for years.


And thats exactly what it did. I was able to set the throttle quite a bit lower. But it was wasted effort because the output in watts (about 50-100) and amps (a steady 0.5-1.0) was unchanged. No doubt my display was rounding as well, but the results were nonetheless easily recognizable as unchanged both on the screen and doing something I'd rather be doing: riding.

Regardless, it seems you want to be snooty and play games. So fine go ahead but you are playing with yourself. I'm all for intellectual discourse but not when one of the players is being disingenuous.

Being disingenuous? Interesting comment from someone that will not accept any information that he himself has not discovered or realized.

I'll give you that the article you reference does infer a static setting for the Start Voltage,( it's been a while since I read it)... but that article though full of much useful information is worded poorly and I find many statements open to multiple interpretations or incomplete. And you conveniently do not reference the last statement for both settings in that article which read similarly... "If you change the throttle you will need to find the new lowest setting".

But this does explain why you are stuck... as with any Bible, it is not written by god but by flawed man and those who follow it blindly often preach misconception.
The explanation of the settings I posted earlier I feel are as it is. But since my words or those do not carry any weight with you or your gods. . .here's a little video for you.

As you can see the throttle at rests is at near 0.8v, hence the error if the Start V is set at 0.8v. And as you can also see the motor first engages at 0.9v with minimal rotation, so it is clear that the controller accepts a voltage lower than 1.1v. It then ramps up to 4.0v at full throttle rotation. So in order to get the full and widest throttle response the settings need to be set at 0.9v and 4.0v. This is the whole point of having these settings.
If you set it to 1.1v you are negating the first few mm of throttle rotation... and if you set it to 4.2v you will not reach full motor output as the controller will never receive that signal.

Now why I concluded this without connecting a voltmeter and just by taking in various reads, adding it to my base knowledge of controls and experimenting while applying some common sense . . I hope the video helps you get there.
And please free to take credit for this information when you post it to your blog.

 

[Jason9142002]

Love the two guys having a debate. When you go through the trouble of showing quotes, you know its going to be interesting lol

 

[Merle Nelson]

At least 7 billion ways of viewing a thing in the world today.

Once quotes got involved I thought I could learn a thing or two if I was sharp enough - or cared to be about the electronics.

Welcome to EBR by the way Jason.

 

[Gionnirocket]

At least 7 billion ways of viewing a thing in the world today.

In cases of opinion, yes. . but "it's a fact"

- This is your opinion? - It's a fact.

My Cousin Vinny (1992) clip with quote - This is your opinion? - It's a fact. Yarn is the best search for video clips by quote. Find the exact moment in a TV show, movie, or music video you want to share. Easily move forward or backward to get to the perfect clip.

getyarn.io

And yes welcome Jason!
I like it! breaking b's from the get_go!

 

[Gionnirocket]

As I'm a 6'3, 38 year old child I'd like to mess about and see if I could start learning some throttle wheelies on my newly built emtb . I should receive my programming cable soon, are there any settings I should change bearing this in mind, and what settings/values would be preferable? Here are my specs: BBSHD 1000W, battery is 48v 17.5 ah, frame is XL, wheels are 29", running 46T stock sprocket.

This kid seems to have perfected them, looks proper fun!

Dude... Where's the wheelie video?
I thought by now you'd be riding it like a unicycle!

 

[Dynz]

Dude... Where's the wheelie video?
I thought by now you'd be riding it like a unicycle!

Haha! I can't lie I'm still a bit shook as I've been dealing with lower back pain ever since we've started working from home. Once the weather gets a bit better I'll be practicing a lot more as well!

 

[theemartymac]

One day, in a utopian future, all bikes will have one of these! lol