Rear hub vs mid drive

[tomjasz]

You auto correct bungled the name.

Sorry fat fingers on an iPhone.

 

[opimax]

Me , wife (also as a spare) and brother who I’m expect to be main riding partner on longer multi day trips. Delivery in July ? . May need another til then though.looking at maybe, maybe current UC or demo...this came up yesterday so need a few days to ponder. Based on trading in when mine are ready....I am retired ride every other day 60 85 or more miles if bikes and weather allow. Currently it’s a crap shoot.may get in 50 today if bike is happy enough, not as much fun with multiple error messages, restarts and intermittent funky feeling torque sensor even if I get the miles

 

[Deacon Blues]

I ordered two bikes-one standard frame for me and one step-through for my wife. With the GMAC hub motor what happens to the frame that is formed to hold the Ultra motor?
I recently rode a Juiced ebike with a GMAC motor and controller from Grin, putting out around 1600W peak. Fast bike!

 

[Deacon Blues]

I thought Juiced use MAC, not GMAC, unless it was modified?

This was a Hilleater, which is a modified Juiced bike. The Hilleater comes with a GMAC motor and Phaserunner controller.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[AHicks]

Ah I see.
Also, that's not quite accurate HillEater was a Juiced Canadian distributor.
However, I believe they decided to stop selling Juiced and go on their own way.

The HillEater Galiano is based on eZee Primero GTS, not Juiced CrossCurrent.

Primero GTS - Ezee Bike

eZeebike Primero GTS Components: Frame Al alloy 6061 Suspension Fork Mozo Peak, 100 mm travel Handle Bar Al alloy 6601 Head stem Cold forged alloy, thread-less, adjustable Head set Sealed bearing Tapered 44/56 Seat post...continue reading

ezeebike.com

Didn't know that Timpo, thanks! Is there a source for them stateside?

 

[Deacon Blues]

I didn't know that either. When I test rode a HillEater he was still selling Juiced bikes.

 

[opimax]

@Deacon Blues ...tell me more !!! 1st concern smoothness of torque sensor...can you compare to a Stromer? What other bike to compare “fast “ to? Top speed you saw ? How many miles riding? Would you buy it? Why or why not? Opinions on baterry usage?

 

[Deacon Blues]

The best analogy I can come up with is someone putting a big engine in an inexpensive, compact car. Lots of power, but limited quality and some really cheap parts. For example, the plastic fenders felt like they belonged on the cheapest Walmart bike.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just depends on what you want in a bike.

Comparing this bike to a Stromer is like comparing apples to oranges. The Stromer is, from what I've read, a quality bike. The Hilleater is not in the same league. That being said, the main components, which are from Grin, are top notch and should last a long time. I'm not so sure about the rest of the bike.

Even though the bike has its weaknesses I still liked it. I considered buying one, but went with the new Watts Wagon superbike instead.

 

[opimax]

Take the drive unit , stuff it in WattWagon with quality components and Pushkar sells me 3! I prefer hubs Mainly for the electronic shifting available and no delay when shifting under load. Won’t be as powerful but won’t be a slouch. Did you read how unreliable Stromers have been for me?

Last question , torque sensor , natural?

Thanks

 

[Deacon Blues]

Timpo, even though I've ordered a WWSuperbike I have an urge to buy a DIV package from Grin (GMAC or All Axle motor) and build a bike from scratch. One thing I like about the All Axle motor is it's very light.

Opimax, the torque sensor did not impress me. When pedalling in a higher gear pressing down harder didn't engage the torque sensor. To get more power I had really press hard on the pedals or gear down.
I'm not sure if the torque sensor was adjustable, or if adjustability was even possible.

 

[AHicks]

Been playing with the idea of building a GMAC based bike, using a RAD Rover as a donor bike (1500.). No, it doesn't have all the high end components, but it's proven itself as a fairly reliable package with a decent battery, which is all I care about.

The Grin GMAC drive and necessary components (controller, display, laced up wheel, etc.) add up to about 1200. The components you remove from the new RAD are worth at least 500. That's what I got for the 'City components when I installed a "kit" on that bike. I'm figuring I could have this bike built, with street tires and suspension seat post for less than 2500 complete - an easy DIY conversion.

Bigger point is, the Grin conversion kit is pretty reasonably priced when considering the variable brake/regen and performance potential. Add YOUR favorite donor bike, and it's not hard to come up with a pretty economical performance bike.... I see one in my future, soon!

 

[Hintrod]

Been playing with the idea of building a GMAC based bike, using a RAD Rover as a donor bike (1500.). No, it doesn't have all the high end components, but it's proven itself as a fairly reliable package with a decent battery, which is all I care about.

The Grin GMAC drive and necessary components (controller, display, laced up wheel, etc.) add up to about 1200. The components you remove from the new RAD are worth at least 500. That's what I got for the 'City components when I installed a "kit" on that bike. I'm figuring I could have this bike built, with street tires and suspension seat post for less than 2500 complete - an easy DIY conversion.

Bigger point is, the Grin conversion kit is pretty reasonably priced when considering the variable brake/regen and performance potential. Add YOUR favorite donor bike, and it's not hard to come up with a pretty economical performance bike.... I see one in my future, soon!

 

[Hintrod]

Question how fast is the Gmac compared to the 750w Bafang Hub motor on the Juiced Crosscurrent X?

Also what is it like to ride an ebike with a Gmac powering it because of the regeneration?

I use my ebikes for fitness and transportation and I love pedaling hard and going fast 25 mph avg speed. I have a Juiced CCX hub drive bike and a Biktrix Ultra FS with the Bafang Ultra motor, I like them both but I have to say I like the Juiced CCX better than the Biktrix, the instant acceleration and complete lack of wear and grinding on the derailleur and drivetrain is intoxicating.

would love to have a faster higher quality version of the Juiced CCX Available somewhere to purchase or build. With the best components available, similar to what Pushkar is doing.
Perhaps the bafang ultra setup with belt drive and rohloff would feel a lot better than my setup and more like a hub, but I am not sure.

Because I live in Florida and it is flat is perhaps is part of the reason I love the hubdrives so much, the Juiced also seems at least twice as efficient with battery use per mile as the Biktrix Ultra Middrive.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Also what is it like to ride an ebike with a Gmac powering it because of the regeneration?

I didn't notice the regen on the HillEaster until I was coasting down a steep hill. I wasn't going anywhere near as fast as I thought I should be going and thought the brakes were sticking. After talking to the shop owner, who was along for the test ride, I realized it was the regen in action.
With the GMAC motor there is always a bit of power consumed to cancel out the drag from the regen.

 

[AHicks]

Timpo, regarding the battery, the stock RAD is good enough for MY needs! I'm not building this bike to be the ultimate, best available, or to set a new land speed record. It's way more about FUNCTIONAL, meeting my needs. I ride for sport. Would I like to have a 52 volt? Sure! Do I need it? Nope..... Nor do I need more Ah. A 20 mile ride is about all I'm good for (my butt won't let me go much further!). There's no need for a heavier battery than the one 14 Ah battery Rad uses on my bike. No upside to lugging around the extra weight of a 17 or 20Ah battery for my purposes. The 14Ah will let me ride for up to a week as it is!

As far as proprietary, so what? It's not THAT proprietary. If I want to put a generic battery on it, it might take me an hour. The battery rack, the thing that makes this battery proprietary, is held in place with 3 screws. How long do you think it's going to take to remove that and install a new rack - the one that's going to ship with a new battery? That's a non event, here anyway. Internet hogwash....

I've been riding the bike, equipped with a stock '17 Rad battery, and the MAC 12t motor (very similar to the GMAC) for over a year now. I LOVE it. I have an easy 35 mile range with much time spent in rolling hills. Noteworthy is the fact I have the controller set to limit available power to the MAC at 1100 watts or so. That setting provides all the power I need to crest the biggest hills - and it's super efficient! Also noteworthy is that I weigh 315 lbs, and rarely ride at speeds over 15mph. The novelty of going faster has long since worn off. My time is spent mostly in PAS 1, with 2 and 3 used as wind and hills make them necessary.

Regarding speed, the GMAC's are available in 2 different windings. The 8 turn and the 10 turn. The 8 turn would likely work out better for those riding at 25 mph frequently. It's designed to be more efficient with the motor turning at a higher rpm. All that is spelled out on the Grin site. The 12t wind, like I have now, isn't available from Grin for the GMAC. Their standpoint is that the 10t will equal the 12t performance in the majority of circumstances. OK fine. I bought the 12t for it's low speed ability, as that best describes how my bikes are ridden.

Regarding the GMAC regen, it's capable of locking up the rear tire if just turned "on". That's why they made the variable regen/brake set up. This is WAY different than the regen on any bike made previously, to my knowledge anyway. That's what makes this drive a game changer. Yes, it is fed some power when coasting, but the regen available, used when stopping if not in the hills, more than makes up for the tiny bit used to make it feel like it's coasting. That little bit of power used coasting is customizable by the user too. -Al

 

[opimax]

Thanks for the info, wonder if @pushkar can work on the t sensor for improved response if needed

 

[AHicks]

Thanks for the info, wonder if @pushkar can work on the t sensor for improved response if needed

If talking GMAC, Grin would likely be the person to talk to about trimming adjustments to your tastes.

 

[AHicks]

Hmm okay maybe I misunderstood something?

When you said you want a GMAC, I thought you were looking for high performance.
To get a most out of GMAC, you would want a high drain rate battery.

If you just need a little more boost, without changing too much on Rad Rover, I think Bolton kit would be the best bet.
Somebody on this forum (Feliz or Dewey) said that he got a Bolton kit, without upgrading the motor to Bolton 750W (retained the stock Rad 350W motor), he still saw a significant gain in performance.

<<<To get a most out of GMAC, you would want a high drain rate battery.>>>

What if I were after only enough performance to get the job done? That I have NO interest in maximum available?

You missed something alright. Starting with the fact I was unhappy with the performance available with my existing bike using a 1500w direct drive, have already installed a MAC 12t, and the fact the bike is equipped with a 12 fet 35a KT controller and display already (likely exceeding Boltons specs, but otherwise very similar) and that I've been riding this bike for a year. I have a pretty good idea of what's available performance wise using a standard RAD battery.....

Not interested in taking a step backwards performance wise with this new bike.

You're missing the fact that performance, to some of us, is NOT about how fast a bike will go. While that may have been a factor 40 years ago, any more that novetly has worn off (been there, done that, no longer have that "need for speed"). Now I'm WAY more interested in how the bike accelerates from a stop for instance, if it will climb a big hill with a reasonable amount of assistance from me, or it's ability to provide all around "peppy" performance. That coupled with a proportional regenerative braking system is what I'm after with the GMAC conversion.....
-Al

 

[AHicks]

I don't know.. when I hear people wanting a GMAC or Bafang Ultra, almost always they're looking for performance gains.

But if you're interested in GMAC just because of their built quality and whatnot, I can understand that too.

Yes, performance gains. Big ones. But not necessarily those involving top speed....

Build quality sure, but also efficiency and low speed abilities. Think truck, tractor, or trials bike maybe. They are set up and used for their low speed abilities. The absolute best are not fast by anyone's imagination.

 

[opimax]

A better reaction sensor is a “performance gain” also. Wanting to go up up hills without slowing down as much or putting in the effort of my old legs I want to use on that hill at above 26 Is important instead of seeing 40 mph on flats