hill climbing? 750W hub versus 250W mid drive

I had a Haul ST (1000 watt Bafang restricted to 750 watt / 90 nm torque), and have a Bosch Performance Line with 75 nm torque.

750 watt - will do a lot more work for you

250 watt Bosch - will feel seamless, like you're a professional cyclist crushing hills
 
Test both hub and mid-drive systems to see which feels better for climbing.
Exactly the thing to do, yep! This morning I did exactly that.

The problem is, the ebike shops are pretty limiting about where a person can ride to try out their ebikes. One stays close to the shop. And they are all located in flat areas. So I started watching the FB listings. Someone in the city listed a Tenways Ago T for sale. 250W Bafang mid drive, Gates belt, Enviolo hub. Beautiful dark green bike. I thought I'd love it, so I arranged to give it a test ride. The fellow lives in a neighborhood with nice big rolling hills, some are probably 15 degree grades. A great place to find out how the mid drives feel on the hills.

Well, I wasn't impressed. Even on top PAS 5 the ebike felt underpowered in comparison to my R1Up LMTD with 750W rear hub. So this afternoon I took my LMTD out there and ran the same hills, and the LMTD is definitely more energetic. The steepest hill in the neighborhood forced me down to about 8 mph on the Tenways in max PAS, but I topped that hill at 17 mph in max PAS with the R1Up and my legs felt better at the top (probably due in large part to climbing the hill twice as fast, so the legs didn't have time to feel the burn so much).

I also found the Enviolo's shifter to be counter-intuitive. My mind wants to think that I should rotate the control upward to go faster, when it's the opposite: rotating upward downshifts for hill climbing and going slower. I kept doing the opposite.

I liked the fact that I would gain built-in front and rear lights and also fenders, all of which my LMTD lacks. But the lights on the Tenways were of inconsequential brightness IMO. And there was no end cap on the grip that I could remove to attach my usual mirror. Brakes were satisfactory but not as good as on my R1Up. I declined to buy the Tenways even though it was at a really low asking price.

I did, however, really like the saddle on the Tenways! A Selle Royal Essenza. I've now ordered one to replace my current Cloud 9.

All in all, this experiment led me to conclude that torque numbers don't lie. A higher torque hub motor can trounce a lower torque mid drive motor, given similar leg vigor on each... on a short sprint, anyway.
 
Try some mid-drive motor different from Bafang on a good e-bike :)
We know what the peak power is on a good brand mid-drive motor. A good e-bike will also have a proper gearing.

Note: With any mid-drive motor e-bike, you need to be in a gear as low as to maintain a proper cadence of >70. If you expect a mid-drive e-bike would just lift you uphill with a lazy pedalling then it is not going to happen :)
 
Try some mid-drive motor different from Bafang on a good e-bike :)
We know what the peak power is on a good brand mid-drive motor. A good e-bike will also have a proper gearing.

Note: With any mid-drive motor e-bike, you need to be in a gear as low as to maintain a proper cadence of >70. If you expect a mid-drive e-bike would just lift you uphill with a lazy pedalling then it is not going to happen :)
I agree, and I don't "lazy pedal" either.
 
I appreciate this is a bit crackers, but it's a good example of the issue with hubs, you need enough power to pull them into their efficient working speed.

This is very steep and hardly a typical ride, modern turbo mode mid drives can beat this bike in 750w mode at this level, it takes 2000w to get ahead.
But yes, this is an extreme example.
 
All in all, this experiment led me to conclude that torque numbers don't lie. A higher torque hub motor can trounce a lower torque mid drive motor, given similar leg vigor on each... on a short sprint, anyway.
The Ago T advertises 55 nm on city streets and 80 off road. That’s not much less than 92. Depending on the gear range in the hub, it’s possible that the Ago T could put more torque on the wheel.

Torque determines absolute climbing ability. Climbing speed depends on watts. A 185-pound rider would give the Ago T a gross of 250. It would take 600 watts on the wheel to ascend a paved hill of 15% at 8 mph. On grass, it would require more power, and most of it would come from the motor. I’d say that little motor did very well.

Your other bike will take you up a grassy 15% slope at 17 mph, and you seemed dissatisfied in your first post. I don’t know why.

Normally I use a hand cart to take waste like sawed logs to a ravine. Yesterday I used my Abound for stuff too heavy for a cart. On my first run, my gross weight was about 465 pounds. The combination of tall grass and soft ground meant I had to pedal down a grade I estimated at 4%, so the rolling resistance was roughly equivalent to a 4% grade. Then I came to a rise that I knew I couldn’t pedal in any gear with that load on that surface. Without pedaling, I gave it a little throttle and it accelerated up the short hill.

I came back to measure. It's 11%. Counting rolling resistance, it was equivalent to 15%. My 750 watt hub motor needed about 86 nm just to climb it, but it accelerated, and the throttle wasn’t fully open.

Aventon doesn’t advertise the torque of that motor, but it must be well over 86 nm, and it’s direct drive.
 
Your other bike will take you up a grassy 15% slope at 17 mph, and you seemed dissatisfied in your first post. I don’t know why.
I think you've read an assumption into what I wrote. You might want to read my initial post again, because I never stated dissatisfaction with the climbing ability of my current ebike; I only asked how a mid drive would compare because if I buy a mid drive I don't want less climbing ability than what I now have, if anything I'd like more. I had visions of pedaling up Mount Cadillac in Acadia NP rather than driving (but now I've pretty much abandoned that thought), if I take a vacation there this summer.

I'd forgotten the exact number for my Ride1Up LMTD hub motor so I looked it up again... it's 100nm torque. So maybe a BBSHD would be the huckleberry?
 
I think you've read an assumption into what I wrote. You might want to read my initial post again, because I never stated dissatisfaction with the climbing ability of my current ebike; I only asked how a mid drive would compare because if I buy a mid drive I don't want less climbing ability than what I now have, if anything I'd like more.
You said if you wanted to work your butt off on hills, you'd ride an acoustic. Weren't you wondering if the Ago T would take you up hills more easily than your current bike? Otherwise, why would you want it?

You asked which would pedal up a hill more easily, but you pedaled as hard as possible to compare the bikes. It seems your question was not what would take you up a hill more easily but what would go faster. I often climb at 8 mph, rather than work my butt off or depend on PAS.
 
You said if you wanted to work your butt off on hills, you'd ride an acoustic. Weren't you wondering if the Ago T would take you up hills more easily than your current bike? Yes. Otherwise, why would you want it? There are several considerations.

You asked which would pedal up a hill more easily, but you pedaled as hard as possible to compare the bikes. It seems your question was not what would take you up a hill more easily but what would go faster. I often climb at 8 mph, rather than work my butt off or depend on PAS.
Well. Sorry for the misunderstanding. So I'll try to be as thorough as possible in laying out the situation. Of course I pedaled both as hard as possible for comparison. And the R1Up was easier on the legs because I reached the top of the hill in less than half the time. Do I have to also mention that I additionally tried the hill with my R1Up at a slower speed and lower gear, which of course was easier on the legs, too? Because obviously, pedaling at slower speeds and lower gears is easier than pedaling at higher speeds and in higher gears. I didn't think I needed to spell that out. Instead I tried to give the apples-to-apples comparison as best I could.

With the Tenways on that biggest hill, I has shifted into the lowest gear setting on the Enviolo and I still needed plenty of leg push to slowly chug up that incline. Using roughly the same leg force with the LMTD, I only had to drop as low as 5th gear. And pedal that hard for about half the time duration. But 2nd gear worked fine also, with less vigorous leg input.

You made it sound as if I were dissatisfied with the power provided by my current ebike. I'm not really dissatisfied in that way. But there are other factors. I knew that a hub motor would never make it up a climb as long as the one I'd been contemplating (the motor would most likely overheat partway up Mount Cadillac). Additionally, I miss the 'flat foot', crank-forward design of my acoustic Trek Pure Sport and have been thinking that maybe a mid-drive Bosch on an Electra Townie (like an 8d or 8i) might suit me better. But after trying the Tenways, I am inclined to think that the measly 40nm of the Bosch Active Line motor would feel entirely unsatisfactory... unless, maybe if Bosch has some magic pixie dust in their mid drives that makes them seem more powerful than a 80nm Bafang. :D To my mind, buying an ebike that is less assistant in hill-climbing than what I now have would seem like a step backward.

Now you might be wondering: why didn't this guy explain all of that to begin with?
The answer is: I know better than to introduce extraneous information which might cause people to veer off-topic rather than address the specific question I posed. I've seen it happen all the time on forums. A person asks X and explains that he's thinking about buying Y; the next four responders argue the merits of Y and never address X! 🤣
 
You said if you wanted to work your butt off on hills, you'd ride an acoustic. Weren't you wondering if the Ago T would take you up hills more easily than your current bike? Otherwise, why would you want it?

You asked which would pedal up a hill more easily, but you pedaled as hard as possible to compare the bikes. It seems your question was not what would take you up a hill more easily but what would go faster. I often climb at 8 mph, rather than work my butt off or depend on PAS.
the slower you go the less power you need( it gets murky because of my experience with trucks) torque and hp have a crossover somewhere,the power output of your situation only changes within the parameters of your prime mover what ever it is, gearing only gives the illusion of more power it only multiplies the force vs effort at the expense of speed( watts output) this has never been adequately explained to me, back in the day it seemed to be the only reason why a truck would lug a load up a hill barely moving almosr to the point of stall( it would barely make it so it seems the slower you go the less power you need,if i can maintain a speed of 8-12 mph up a steep hill i am very satified( there is a slow lane usually)
 
That only applies to mid drives that can utilise the low freewheel gears.
A normal hub motor being dragged down to low rpm will start turning battery power into heat.

You can of course spend a lot of money on fancy versions designed to operate like that.

There is a sweet spot incline for my hub motor that beats even powerful midrives, running 2000w my hub will destroy a standard road legal midrive, there are plenty of videos though of fit riders on legal MTBs tearing away from powerful 1000w bikes ,I watched a video of that Crusher eFatbike off-road against a legal mtb up a steep difficult off-road path, the legal bike tore away, a combination of fit, skilled rider, using the power and gears effectively.
 
the slower you go the less power you need( it gets murky because of my experience with trucks) torque and hp have a crossover somewhere,the power output of your situation only changes within the parameters of your prime mover what ever it is, gearing only gives the illusion of more power it only multiplies the force vs effort at the expense of speed( watts output) this has never been adequately explained to me, back in the day it seemed to be the only reason why a truck would lug a load up a hill barely moving almosr to the point of stall( it would barely make it so it seems the slower you go the less power you need,if i can maintain a speed of 8-12 mph up a steep hill i am very satified( there is a slow lane usually)
I've never ridden a mid-drive, but the concept appeals to me, that downshifting would let me climb a steeper hill without proportionally more motor torque.

The steepest quarter mile going up Cadillac Mountain is only 7.5% . The Ago T should be able to maintain more than 15 mph. It should be a piece of cake for the Ride1up, too. OTOH, demonstrations like the 15% grassy hill could wreck an LMT'D.

Ride1up's LMT'D page has six reviews visible. One, from Gary Baker, says he burned up his controller and motor going up steep hills. It would have taken an output of 1500 mechanical watts to go up that grassy hill at 17 mph. The LMT'D is rated for 750 sustained. What's more, 17 mph would be about 1/3 below the peak efficiency for the motor. He may have been drawing 3 times more than the rated sustained current to get twice the rated sustained watts. That would mean 9 times more watts of heat.

If Bosch doesn't make hub motors, that could be a reason.
 
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Simple questions for anyone who really knows, please:

Q1: In a typical derailleur-based mid-drive, does the chainring turn at the same rate as the pedals, yes or no?

Q2: If no to Q1, does the chainring turn faster or slower than the pedals?

NOT asking about multi-speed MGUs, just typical mid-drive motors. Thanks!
 
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Simple questions for anyone who really knows, please:

Q1: In a typical derailleur-based mid-drive, does the chainring turn at the same rate as the pedals, yes or no?

Q2: If no to Q1, does the chainring turn faster or slower than the pedals?

NOT asking about multi-speed MGUs, just typical mid-drive motors. Thanks!
only. the older bosch had the chainring spinning at 2.5 to 1 it runs faster. like mine has a 18t chainring so about a 46t chain ring in use.
 
only. the older bosch had the chainring spinning at 2.5 to 1 it runs faster. like mine has a 18t chainring so about a 46t chain ring in use.
Thanks! So how many of the cassette cogs in that setup were smaller larger than 46t? (For example, 2 of 10.)
 
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Q1: In a typical derailleur-based mid-drive, does the chainring turn at the same rate as the pedals, yes or no?
In a good modern mid-drive motor derailleur system the chainring rotates at exactly the same rate as the cranks.

The reason for such a design is to enable the rider seamlessly pedal the e-bike whenever and for whatever reason the electrical assist ceases to act (like, switching the assist OFF or exceeding the maximum assisted speed or turning the system completely off).

In the case of no assist, multiple internal clutches disengage the motor, so the crankset is being immediately connected to the chainring the shortest possible way.

That enables the rider to apply huge changes to the chainring and the cassette size. My Vado SL came with a 44T chainring and a 11-42T 10s cassette. Now, I have a 36T chainring and a 11-51T 11s cassette there for great climbing properties. I once swapped the 48T chainring of my big Vado for a 36T one for mountain vacation, and now am running the e-bike with a 44T chainwheel, as it is optimal for my needs where I live.
 
Try some mid-drive motor different from Bafang on a good e-bike :)
Yeah a 250w Bafang sounds like a BBS01 (which looks exactly like a BBS02), which is usually a 36v motor. It could also be one of their new small commercial oem motors. Assessing the tech another way: Look at the kind of motor all of the quality name brand manufactured e-mtb's use.

Q1: In a typical derailleur-based mid-drive, does the chainring turn at the same rate as the pedals, yes or no?
On a BBSHD this can either be 'same' or 'faster', depending on the assist level AND the settings you plug in. If you are using the factory settings the answer will pretty much always be 'faster'. Set it up like I have mine and its pretty much always 'same rate'. Factory settings let the motor run away from the rider and pretty much totally account for all the bad reviews of that line's performance.
Q2: If no to Q1, does the chainring turn faster or slower than the pedals?
It will never be slower on a BBSHD. There's a clutch inside that won't let that happen.
 
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