Product Improvement:- Feedback to Bosch.

[webcurl]

I did and it is a suggestion for possible improvement for Rohloff not Bosch. It would have to be initiated, tested, proven and implemented by Rohloff before they request and coordinate with Bosch who may or may not agree or be willing to accommodate the added complexity in their system.

It could be Kindernay, Alfine Di2, Pinion, any other IGH.
And perhaps the settings which would have to be implemented by Bosch in their UI & settings stored within their system could simply just be passed on to any respective Electronic IGH shifting system.
And if the complexity is hidden deep in the interface then you only get to know it's there if you delve deeper, simple.

 

[Alaskan]

It could be Kindernay, Alfine Di2, Pinion, any other IGH.
And perhaps the settings which would have to be implemented by Bosch in their UI & settings stored within their system could simply just be passed on to any respective Electronic IGH shifting system.
And if the complexity is hidden deep in the interface then you only get to know it's there if you delve deeper, simple.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Learning how to shift a Rohloff smoothly is just not that complicated.

Rohloff and Bosch have solved the problem of the motor's force being paused for sufficient time to shift. It is up to the riders to do their part. It the rider does not bother learning how to properly shift his $1,800 jewel of a cycling gear box shame on him (or her)

I am astounded at how many people purchase sophisticated equipment, don't bother reading the operator's manual and then gripe about poor quality and how disappointed they are after having paid so much. If the new owner refuses to learn how to shift properly, easing his pressure on the pedals while shifting and keeps on grinding, they should not be surprised if the internal gears wear out prematurely.

Even though it is not absolutely necessary with an ordinary derailleur, chain and cassette, they will last way longer with an easing up on the pedals while shifting. No electronic voodoo can compensate for a willfully careless rider.

 

[Dallant]

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Learning how to shift a Rohloff smoothly is just not that complicated.

Rohloff and Bosch have solved the problem of the motor's force being paused for sufficient time to shift. It is up to the riders to do their part. It the rider does not bother learning how to properly shift his $1,800 jewel of a cycling gear box shame on him (or her)

I am astounded at how many people purchase sophisticated equipment, don't bother reading the operator's manual and then gripe about poor quality and how disappointed they are after having paid so much. If the new owner refuses to learn how to shift properly, easing his pressure on the pedals while shifting and keeps on grinding, they should not be surprised if the internal gears wear out prematurely.

Even though it is not absolutely necessary with an ordinary derailleur, chain and cassette, they will last way longer with an easing up on the pedals while shifting. No electronic voodoo can compensate for a willfully careless rider.

I agreed with you right up until you mentioned reading the owners manual. That’s the one thing I’m a bit disgusted about with our Treks. The Trek manuals are fairly useless and only cover very general info. Certainly nothing specific about the Allant or about proper shifting practice.

 

[Alaskan]

I agreed with you right up until you mentioned reading the owners manual. That’s the one thing I’m a bit disgusted about with our Treks. The Trek manuals are fairly useless and only cover very general info. Certainly nothing specific about the Allant or about proper shifting practice.

That is true. The Rohloff manual is actually quite complete by comparison.

 

[webcurl]

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Learning how to shift a Rohloff smoothly is just not that complicated.

Rohloff and Bosch have solved the problem of the motor's force being paused for sufficient time to shift. It is up to the riders to do their part. It the rider does not bother learning how to properly shift his $1,800 jewel of a cycling gear box shame on him (or her)

I am astounded at how many people purchase sophisticated equipment, don't bother reading the operator's manual and then gripe about poor quality and how disappointed they are after having paid so much. If the new owner refuses to learn how to shift properly, easing his pressure on the pedals while shifting and keeps on grinding, they should not be surprised if the internal gears wear out prematurely.

Even though it is not absolutely necessary with an ordinary derailleur, chain and cassette, they will last way longer with an easing up on the pedals while shifting. No electronic voodoo can compensate for a willfully careless rider.

My original ideas were primarily for myself in the future, a possible switch to E14, i currently have a manual shift Rohloff and already shift gears very nicely thank you very much!
The ideas i had were to maybe get the E14 as close as possible to the non-E14 shift in flexibility & speed.
I don't know exactly what happens in the 180-200ms (Rohloff site quotes these times) apart from a Bosch motor power reduction and the shift being performed but if there is a quicker smoother way that allows more control for a "pro" Rohloff rider then i'd be keen on it.

But on the other extreme the ideas i mentioned could also be used to make it easier for newbies, etc. and safer for the Rohloff.
eg.
scenario 1: You lend your E14 bike to a family member, friend, whoever and you know they will have trouble shifting so you put it in "beginner" mode.
scenario 2: Your company has a fleet of R&M Loads or whatever with Rohloff's as you wanted longevity, efficiency & gates belt (low maint.). Many different employees use the vehicle so to keep the Rohloff's longevity you mostly have it in "beginner" mode. The occasional employee can use "experienced" or "pro" mode.
scenario 3: You used to be a Rohloff "pro" but have had an accident and can't shift like you used to.
scenario 4: Rohloff provides ebike company/end user an extra 2 or so years warranty provided the system is fixed on "beginner" mode and services are performed as required.
etc.
Possibly coupled with input fed from the Bosch torque sensor in the "beginner" mode so as to allow:
If cutting the motor out is simply not enough in-conjunction with too much force applied to the cranks then to keep the motor cut? & not initiate the shift, instead displaying a msg on the screen instead.
A complete protection for the Rohloff from inadequate shifting conditions - most helpful for the above scenarios i described.

And of course as i said, this could be applied to Kindernay & others. (when they get their own semi-automatic/electronic shifting system, which surely is only a matter of time?)
Or it may be a future feature in a non CAN bus group of ebike/motor manufacturers based on FlexRay, Automotive Ethernet or some other/new Open Source vehicle communication transport.
Of course any new integrated motor/gearbox (eg. Bosch motor & Rohloff in one unit) you would think would have this kind of automatic/semi-automatic control.
If the E14 can shift with only the motor cut but with crank force applied by the rider and do that safely then that paves the way for a fully automatic system if the end-user so should desire.
Or perhaps i'm getting carried away!

 

[webcurl]

If anyone's interested, the original post copied:


Here begins a new problem with the E14 where users who have not experienced a manual shift Rohloff before never get to develop the practice of shifting without pressure, instead relying on the E14 to perform the change completely.
Which is why i have suggested that there should be parameters the end-user can change in regards to E14,
eg.
Someone with no experience: Cut 90% of motor power for 300ms (or whatever is required)
Someone with previous experience: Cut motor 30% of motor power for 150ms.
Someone with previous experience & allow fast shifting: Cut motor 0% for 0ms.

2 parameters within the end-user Bosch settings:
E14 percentage of motor cut-out (0-100%, 5% steps).
E14 time to allow shift (0-XXXX, 50ms steps)
(ms - milli second)

Or if there is a power curve used to cut motor power then pick a few key points of that curve to allow the end user to configure.

And for Bosch to go a step further: Have 2 to 5 profiles of these settings a user can switch between reasonably easy so that the ebike can be shared amongst friends/family without worrying about stressing the auto shifting system.
eg. Maybe i'd call them "Rohloff newbie", "Rohloff experienced", "Rohloff pro"

And of course in-conjunction with END-USER configurable battery reserve for E14.

 

[webcurl]

Must be a bad idea i guess?

 

[William - Bosch Team]

It sounds like a good idea.

Admittedly, I've not spent enough time on anything with E14 to be able to make a meaningful, even semi-intelligent response on shifting behavior. This adjustability would likely be something that the OEM would have to ask Bosch for, and my guess is that most will want to keep it simple and straightforward. I'm not even sure if this is possible with our software/hardware. The most I could see happening is to adjust the overall behavior to one of the suggested profiles, but I don't think we'll ever see multiple options for end-user selection. I can do a little more digging though.

I doubt battery reserve for eShift will ever be user-configurable as it would allow potential for someone to have both zero assistance, AND a gear that is not very good for making it home safely. I don't know who (OEM or Bosch) decides this, but I do see the wisdom in guaranteeing gear shifts on a very heavy bike with no assistance. I realize some folks would like to have that little bit of extra range. I'm still working on getting info on exactly how many Wh are set aside for this.

I wish I had a more positive response on this one.

 

[Ken S]

Deleting multiple "Unnamed Activities"?

I ended up with about a 100 of these in my ebike connect app. Would be nice to have the ability to clear them or selectively clearing them somehow, deleting them one by one is nearly a sainthood task.
Unless I am missing something.

 

[webcurl]

My original ideas were primarily for myself in the future, a possible switch to E14, i currently have a manual shift Rohloff and already shift gears very nicely thank you very much!
The ideas i had were to maybe get the E14 as close as possible to the non-E14 shift in flexibility & speed.
I don't know exactly what happens in the 180-200ms (Rohloff site quotes these times) apart from a Bosch motor power reduction and the shift being performed but if there is a quicker smoother way that allows more control for a "pro" Rohloff rider then i'd be keen on it.

But on the other extreme the ideas i mentioned could also be used to make it easier for newbies, etc. and safer for the Rohloff.
eg.
scenario 1: You lend your E14 bike to a family member, friend, whoever and you know they will have trouble shifting so you put it in "beginner" mode.
scenario 2: Your company has a fleet of R&M Loads or whatever with Rohloff's as you wanted longevity, efficiency & gates belt (low maint.). Many different employees use the vehicle so to keep the Rohloff's longevity you mostly have it in "beginner" mode. The occasional employee can use "experienced" or "pro" mode.
scenario 3: You used to be a Rohloff "pro" but have had an accident and can't shift like you used to.
scenario 4: Rohloff provides ebike company/end user an extra 2 or so years warranty provided the system is fixed on "beginner" mode and services are performed as required.
etc.
Possibly coupled with input fed from the Bosch torque sensor in the "beginner" mode so as to allow:
If cutting the motor out is simply not enough in-conjunction with too much force applied to the cranks then to keep the motor cut? & not initiate the shift, instead displaying a msg on the screen instead.
A complete protection for the Rohloff from inadequate shifting conditions - most helpful for the above scenarios i described.

And of course as i said, this could be applied to Kindernay & others. (when they get their own semi-automatic/electronic shifting system, which surely is only a matter of time?)
Or it may be a future feature in a non CAN bus group of ebike/motor manufacturers based on FlexRay, Automotive Ethernet or some other/new Open Source vehicle communication transport.
Of course any new integrated motor/gearbox (eg. Bosch motor & Rohloff in one unit) you would think would have this kind of automatic/semi-automatic control.
If the E14 can shift with only the motor cut but with crank force applied by the rider and do that safely then that paves the way for a fully automatic system if the end-user so should desire.
Or perhaps i'm getting carried away!

Just come across these articles, and reminds me of my ideas regarding different configurations for different people:

Magazine | Riese & Müller

www.r-m.de

Magazine | Riese & Müller

www.r-m.de

 

[lmclaren]

One thing I would like to suggest / request is the graphing of the battery charge level on ebike-connect apps, especially the web page. It would be very handy to be able to judge the battery usage for different tyre pressures, routes etc.

 

[Alaskan]

One thing I would like to suggest / request is the graphing of the battery charge level on ebike-connect apps, especially the web page. It would be very handy to be able to judge the battery usage for different tyre pressures, routes etc.

In the original Nyon there is a value, "watt hours per mile" Wh/Mi" under the label consumption, that is the electric equivalent to miles per gallon that is available in both current as well as average. For some reason this is not an available value to display on the new Nyon display. I think having access to this information would give you the metric needed to assess the difference in energy use with different tire pressures. I agree that being able to graph that value on the ebike connect web site would also be helpful in that regard.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

One thing I would like to suggest / request is the graphing of the battery charge level on ebike-connect apps, especially the web page. It would be very handy to be able to judge the battery usage for different tyre pressures, routes etc.

This would be great! I'll pass it along.

In the original Nyon there is a value, "watt hours per mile" Wh/Mi" under the label consumption, that is the electric equivalent to miles per gallon that is available in both current as well as average. For some reason this is not an available value to display on the new Nyon display. I think having access to this information would give you the metric needed to assess the difference in energy use with different tire pressures. I agree that being able to graph that value on the ebike connect web site would also be helpful in that regard.

I was looking into this, but my contact got tied up with some other stuff. I'll send a reminder today to see if we have any new info.

 

[Ken S]

Are there any plans to increase the levels of assist from the current 4 (ECO, TOUR, SPORT, TURBO) to ... more?
It might lessen the fielding of requests for adjusting the current levels which this thread has several of and maybe increase user satisfaction....

I'm not sure if it makes sense, but if adding assist levels is just software driving the motor then having 8 or even 10 levels would allow the user to tune his ride better, under R&D's "control" to properly implement power to the drive train, and should avoid issues with 3rd party software as I originally ended up using on my previous Shimano.
I did play around with adjusting assist levels in the past (Shimano STEPS, E8000), but ended up going back to their default for simplicity and my usage seldom needed this level of "tuning" as my muscles, even at my age, can still take up the "slack".

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Are there any plans to increase the levels of assist from the current 4 (ECO, TOUR, SPORT, TURBO) to ... more?
It might lessen the fielding of requests for adjusting the current levels which this thread has several of and maybe increase user satisfaction....

I'm not sure if it makes sense, but if adding assist levels is just software driving the motor then having 8 or even 10 levels would allow the user to tune his ride better, under R&D's "control" to properly implement power to the drive train, and should avoid issues with 3rd party software as I originally ended up using on my previous Shimano.
I did play around with adjusting assist levels in the past (Shimano STEPS, E8000), but ended up going back to their default for simplicity and my usage seldom needed this level of "tuning" as my muscles, even at my age, can still take up the "slack".

No plans to change the number of assistance levels offered. If I had to speculate, I'd say we are more likely to see more options for customizable modes in the future, but I've not heard of plans for either (more modes, or more adjustable modes.)

It does seem that more OEMs are electing to offer the variable modes like eMTB, etc., etc., but I don't have any data on how this will evolve.

 

[Ken S]

No plans to change the number of assistance levels offered. If I had to speculate, I'd say we are more likely to see more options for customizable modes in the future, but I've not heard of plans for either (more modes, or more adjustable modes.)

It does seem that more OEMs are electing to offer the variable modes like eMTB, etc., etc., but I don't have any data on how this will e

 

[carsonjones]

I'd love to see more control on the user end in terms of calibrating and fine-tuning. For road ebikes I'd like to have them move the ebike level controls to the hoods for faster and easier access.

 

[Ken S]

Thanks for the quick response William.
I very seldom use anything more than ECO even on steep grades, but over the next few years (and/or if I have to get any more joint replacement(s)) as I hit 70 I'm sure I will be using the higher assist modes.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I think some refinement on the Nyon and Kiox are needed. my Nyon crashed once. but easier bluetooth connectivity so it is not so finicky and works with more devices. maybe let it broadcast so you can pump the ride data to devices. have auto upload to strava. But one thing we really need is a end ride button. like if I go on a long ride and pause the ride ends and new one starts. you really need a ride start and stop button. then I would not need my garmin to do these things.

 

[BlackHand]

COBI is nice in it's simplicity but needs work too. My smartphone hub crashed when I tried to leave work the other day. Spent 5 minutes 'recovering' the firmware then the COBI said it needed to update the hub to 1.09 but the hub was already on 1.09.... so I put the phone away and just rode home with the hub only. I'm pretty sure the sw crash happened because I was streaming music from youtube and COBI didn't know how to handle the video window that youtube pulls to the front when you launch another app.

Oh by the way, the SPH phone mount broke while going over a pavement change across an intersection after a couple of weeks commuting - lasted maybe 250 miles. Thanks to previous reviewers I knew this was inevitable so I had a $5 backup plan in place with silicone bands securing my phone to the hub. Frankly the silicone bands are more functional than the phone holder was which is ... sad. No point in replacing or trying to superglue the phone holder.