Oil cooling geared hub motors

[AHicks]

Show me where you have eliminated the potential for this cooling fluid to leak out?

My biggest point was regarding/questioning the usefulness of this oil with the question of "is it worth the hassle"? I don't see where that's been addressed.

Stop talking about it and go for it young man. My bet is you have no plans to do that any time soon (if ever), but if I'm wrong, circle back and let us know how wrong we are when you have a few hundred miles on it. THEN your opinion might be worth something. At that point I'd love to hear about your trials and tribulations.

Best of luck...

 

[JES2020]

Show me where you have eliminated the potential for this cooling fluid to leak out?

My biggest point was regarding/questioning the usefulness of this oil with the question of "is it worth the hassle"? I don't see where that's been addressed.

Stop talking about it and go for it young man. My bet is you have no plans to do that any time soon (if ever), but if I'm wrong, circle back and let us know how wrong we are when you have a few hundred miles on it. THEN your opinion might be worth something. At that point I'd love to hear about your trials and tribulations.

Best of luck...

Not only has you reading ability failed you, I'm afraid your have bigger issues to deal with. Sorry but U R Ignored !

 

[kmccune]

Complete bosh IMHO. Neither of the 3 hub motors I've owned had sealed wire entry. Your bike never falls over? Mine does. Fluid on the ground and wires attracting dirt because they are covered in ATF. Plus the covers come loose, 2 or 3 times a year if I forget to retorque the screws. When it makes a snapping noise, the cover is loose. Replaced the torx screws on one motor cover with phillips so I could retighten on the road. Blue loktite didn't decrease the frequency of loosening. Red loktite would but the flame necessary to loosen it to grease the gears would likely melt some of the electrical stuff.
I could redesign the motor to be cooled by fluid, but as soon as I did bright boys in some foreign country would copy it and flood the market with cheap imitations. Look what happened to Segway. Customs wouldn't even keep the copies out of the country.
I don't have the $100000000 necessary to defend a patent. Consider how rich Tesla got from designing the 3 phase electrical system. (not).

Sorry to reply to an old post like this, Westinghouse screwed Tesla, Nikola was a generous magnanimous person, such Folks get taken advantage of by unscrupulous Cads, no one ever gets away with anything in the end, according to my Belief system all will answer to the "Man".

 

[kmccune]

Show me where you have eliminated the potential for this cooling fluid to leak out?

My biggest point was regarding/questioning the usefulness of this oil with the question of "is it worth the hassle"? I don't see where that's been addressed.

Stop talking about it and go for it young man. My bet is you have no plans to do that any time soon (if ever), but if I'm wrong, circle back and let us know how wrong we are when you have a few hundred miles on it. THEN your opinion might be worth something. At that point I'd love to hear about your trials and tribulations.

Best of luck...

AHicks, this "smacks" of HHO( and I know you understand what I am getting at) The thing is sometimes these things work out pretty good for the perpetrator.If it works for Him, all to the good, but Kids please do not try this at home Jes 2020 apparently has a lot of experience and knows what He is doing.

 

[JES2020]

AHicks, this "smacks" of HHO( and I know you understand what I am getting at) The thing is sometimes these things work out pretty good for the perpetrator.If it works for Him, all to the good, but Kids please do not try this at home Jes 2020 apparently has a lot of experience and knows what He is doing.

Have people lost the ability to read or just comprehend? It's all laid out in 3 pages of questions and answers right before your bewildered eyes, along with major detailed instructions on Endless Sphere, if you have ever heard of that site, which I doubt.
Third possibility is that there are an endless Que of trolls on this site !

 

[AHicks]

Have people lost the ability to read or just comprehend? It's all laid out in 3 pages of questions and answers right before your bewildered eyes, along with major detailed instructions on Endless Sphere, if you have ever heard of that site, which I doubt.
Third possibility is that there are an endless Que of trolls on this site !

Or quite possibly, maybe you are a little thin skinned? If YOU spent much time on ES, you'd know I am a pretty regular contributor there as well (over 500 posts). Not hard to understand why I am all done here, despite the fact I have an open mind on what you are trying to achieve, and willing to discuss any part of anything I wrote - without insulting personal attacks.

Best of luck....

 

[Gearedfast]

This is coming from a crusty old "dinosaur aged curmudgeon" so take it for whatever it's worth. I'd just like to supply some things for you to mull over a bit.

First, I doubt SERIOUSLY you have a 1500w geared hub. You may have a smaller geared hub you are feeding with 1500w, but you do not have a 1500w motor just because your KT display will go that high when you apply enough power. This is a fact. There's no guessing to this. There is only one geared hub available that SOME might rate at 1500 watts under certain conditions, and it's by MAC. Unless you bought this entire motor and had it laced to a wheel to fit your bike, you do not have a MAC motor. IF you are convinced/sure you have a 1500 watt motor, you're pretty sure it's not a direct drive?

Second, the fact that there have been oil cooled geared hub motors around for years does NOT mean all geared hub motors are set up for it. There's about a 99.999% chance yours is not set up for it, and if you plan on using it that way, there's going to be some compromises in play. Like a motor that's a mess most of the tjme.

You bring up an interesting idea regarding venting. I think that the few ounces of fluid you use will likely leave enough air in there to allow for it, but any little tiny crack is going to leak if/when submerged in fluid due to internal pressure. Which brings up another idea.

The hub is not going to be filled with fluid. At rest, there's just going to be a little in the bottom. At speed, that little bit is going to be spread around the entire perimeter of the interior. It's not very likely the bearings or gears will ever be submerged, only splashed, just like the shaft with it's wire exit.

That's it from me. If you want to try this, my advice would be be prepared for a mess, at least until you get it all figured out. It won't be until you get to that point where you'll be able to tell yourself for sure whether the exercise was worth it, or even if the wet hub makes a significant (worth the time and trouble) in the motors ability to cool itself. That vs. just buying something different that will be capable of doing whatever it is you want to do easily, without the increased maintenance or jumping through hoops.

Your call..... Best of luck.

I just laced in a new Bafang G062 geared hub fat tire motor base wattage rating of 1000watts, it can easily take 1500watts with no extra cooling.
Interestingly enough the motor is completely sealed with actual oil seals on the axle and the cable is completely sealed with silicon.
It also has a seal on the shell and the bolt holes for the rotors are sealed.
So at this point, I personally know of a couple of three Bafang motors that come well sealed and also a couple of Shengyi motors.
The Mac motor I have would not be easy to properly seal at all it is one of the ones where the cable comes out the side of the axle, with the right sealer it can be done.
Interestingly if you use the Grin tech motor simulator and choose all motors it has options for the Bafang G310 motor simulations to be run using oil cooling meaning they have run and tested the motors using oil cooling.

I am not sure why some people are making such a big deal about this it's not rocket science most motors are easy enough to seal and many come that way they are also easy enough to pressure test beforehand, with no mess involved!

 

[tomjasz]

FFS buy a motor controller combination that will get the speeds you want.

 

[AHicks]

I just laced in a new Bafang G062 geared hub fat tire motor base wattage rating of 1000watts, it can easily take 1500watts with no extra cooling.
Interestingly enough the motor is completely sealed with actual oil seals on the axle and the cable is completely sealed with silicon.
It also has a seal on the shell and the bolt holes for the rotors are sealed.
So at this point, I personally know of a couple of three Bafang motors that come well sealed and also a couple of Shengyi motors.
The Mac motor I have would not be easy to properly seal at all it is one of the ones where the cable comes out the side of the axle, with the right sealer it can be done.
Interestingly if you use the Grin tech motor simulator and choose all motors it has options for the Bafang G310 motor simulations to be run using oil cooling meaning they have run and tested the motors using oil cooling.

I am not sure why some people are making such a big deal about this it's not rocket science most motors are easy enough to seal and many come that way they are also easy enough to pressure test beforehand, with no mess involved!

Just trying to keep a level playing field here OK?
Because you can feed more wattage into a motor without blowing it up immediately does not change the motor's rating. This is true no matter who made the motor, what the motor's original rating is, or what you're feeding it. If the motor could take the higher wattage for an extended period of time, manf's being what they are, would rate then higher I'm pretty sure. In any case, that's true no matter if you are feeding a 500w motor 1000w, or a 1000w motor 3000w. The fact that can be done shouldn't be the point of a conversation regarding using ATF in a geared hub motor. It's off topic..... A conversation that should be had separately.

So back on point, just for the sake of conversation, the seals you see on that G062 (and others), that you believe are for containing oil (you are calling them oil seals, right?), may actually be there for the purpose of keeping dust and crud out, and possibly to increase the motor's ability to resist water intrusion should it be dunked, correct? So the fact there are seals in place does NOT mean the motor is designed to be run with an oil bath. Not as designed originally in my mind anyway.....

So, the question is will those WATER seals hold oil? Do we know that because it's been done successfully (by Bafang or somebody using a Bafang), or are we saying it MIGHT/SHOULD work if done correctly with a little luck? I'm hanging out in these forums quite a bit, and I think it pretty safe to say it's NOT something you see done frequently.

So there's that. Then, if somebody did want to try this, clearly they would be on their own from an engineering standpoint. Bafang is sure as hell not going to be any help - other than to say your warranty is no longer in effect..... This is not something you could do and expect much in the way of support.

And last, a point of personal curiosity. Does anyone have any idea of how effective running a few ounces of whatever might be in cooling the motor in question? Or is this just a crap shoot. You pour the oil in and hope for the best/take what you get?

I'm pretty familiar with the Grin Simulator, but I'm not familiar with the G310 FSV which is the only motor that I saw on that chart that offered the with/without oil comparison. So I looked into it a little. First it should be noted that the motor is a 250w motor...... Further, it's a 250w motor with an 11:1 gear ratio (twice that of most motors used in production bikes). Point being, if I were willing to consider the "with oil " option for a motor I was thinking of running oil in, I would want to see something a little closer to the specs of THAT motor, not a 30nm 250w motor w/48:1 gearing.... That's me though....

For anyone curious, here's the Grin simulator chart on the with/without oil Bafang G310 FSV comparison. Note the very low power rating of the G310FSV, and the fact there is no performance difference with/without internal oil. The only place that shows any difference is down on the lower left where it shows "time to overheat". -Al

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

Here's the google search on the Bafang G310 fsv

bafang g310 fst - Google Search

 

[Gearedfast]

Just trying to keep a level playing field here OK?
Because you can feed more wattage into a motor without blowing it up immediately does not change the motor's rating. This is true no matter who made the motor, what the motor's original rating is, or what you're feeding it. If the motor could take the higher wattage for an extended period of time, manf's being what they are, would rate then higher I'm pretty sure. In any case, that's true no matter if you are feeding a 500w motor 1000w, or a 1000w motor 3000w. The fact that can be done shouldn't be the point of a conversation regarding using ATF in a geared hub motor. It's off topic..... A conversation that should be had separately.

So back on point, just for the sake of conversation, the seals you see on that G062 (and others), that you believe are for containing oil (you are calling them oil seals, right?), may actually be there for the purpose of keeping dust and crud out, and possibly to increase the motor's ability to resist water intrusion should it be dunked, correct? So the fact there are seals in place does NOT mean the motor is designed to be run with an oil bath. Not as designed originally in my mind anyway.....

So, the question is will those WATER seals hold oil? Do we know that because it's been done successfully (by Bafang or somebody using a Bafang), or are we saying it MIGHT/SHOULD work if done correctly with a little luck? I'm hanging out in these forums quite a bit, and I think it pretty safe to say it's NOT something you see done frequently.

So there's that. Then, if somebody did want to try this, clearly they would be on their own from an engineering standpoint. Bafang is sure as hell not going to be any help - other than to say your warranty is no longer in effect.....

And last, a point of personal curiosity. Does anyone have any idea of how effective running a few ounces of whatever might be in cooling the motor in question? Or is this just a crap shoot. You pour the oil in and hope for the best/take what you get?

I'm pretty familiar with the Grin Simulator, but I'm not familiar with the G310 FSV which is the only motor that I saw on that chart that offered the with/without oil comparison. So I looked into it a little. First it should be noted that the motor is a 250w motor...... Further, it's a 250w motor with an 11:1 gear ratio (twice that of most motors used in production bikes). Point being, if I were willing to consider the "with oil " option for a motor I was thinking of running oil in, I would want to see something a little closer to the specs of THAT motor, not a 30nm 250w motor w/48:1 gearing.... That's me though....

For anyone curious, here's the Grin simulator chart on the with/without oil Bafang G310 FSV comparison. Note the very low power rating of the G310FSV, and the fact there is no performance difference with/without internal oil. The only place that shows any difference is down on the lower left where it shows "time to overheat". -Al

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

Here's the google search on the Bafang G310 fsv

bafang g310 fst - Google Search

Obviously, you have read none of the previous posts and would rather make speculation with no personal or solid basis, I right now have a motor running just fine and way over it's base 500watts.

So yes actually yes it does change it's rating because a new variable has been added that being oil whether ATF or mineral it works extremely well at cooling a motor allowing more amps and increasing the torque may not do much for top end speed of course.

So yes a motor rated at say 500watts continuous no coolant can be run at 1500watts with coolant continuous, in any book that makes it a 1500watt motor.
All oil seals and bearings have numbers on them, the G062 has oil seals that keep constant tension on the axle, they also work great as water and dust seals of course.

If you wanted you could run distilled water as it does not conduct electricity until it picks up enough ions, not very good for lubrication though, just thought I would throw that in there!

The G310 many people buy as kit from Grin with a Baserunner or Phaserunner and Cycle Analyst if you chose one of those controllers you can see it is possible to run those motors way higher than their rating with oil doubling + the starting torque and overheating "Never"

Speculating and commenting on things you have no experience with it is not useful or helpful to anyone

Here is a link for the motor G310 with Phaserunner if you add a grade to it you can see the effects on overheating.

One last addition to this comment the G310 is a very small motor even with oil it will heat up faster than it can dissipate heat it will however cool down very quickly much much faster than a dry motor

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

 

[JES2020]

Obviously, you have read none of the previous posts and would rather make speculation with no personal or solid basis, I right now have a motor running just fine and way over it's base 500watts.

So yes actually yes it does change it's rating because a new variable has been added that being oil whether ATF or mineral it works extremely well at cooling a motor allowing more amps and increasing the torque may not do much for top end speed of course.

So yes a motor rated at say 500watts continuous no coolant can be run at 1500watts with coolant continuous, in any book that makes it a 1500watt motor.
All oil seals and bearings have numbers on them, the G062 has oil seals that keep constant tension on the axle, they also work great as water and dust seals of course.

If you wanted you could run distilled water as it does not conduct electricity until it picks up enough ions, not very good for lubrication though, just thought I would throw that in there!

The G310 many people buy as kit from Grin with a Baserunner or Phaserunner and Cycle Analyst if you chose one of those controllers you can see it is possible to run those motors way higher than their rating with oil doubling + the starting torque and overheating "Never"

Speculating and commenting on things you have no experience with it is not useful or helpful to anyone

Here is a link for the motor G310 with Phaserunner if you add a grade to it you can see the effects on overheating.

One last addition to this comment the G310 is a very small motor even with oil it will heat up faster than it can dissipate heat it will however cool down very quickly much much faster than a dry motor

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

Well said ! For some reason, they get a wild hair up their arse and start looking for arguments , I think they just feel lonely and have nothing useful to add.
A handful of grumpy naysayers trying to ruin this site for everyone else, who want to learn .
I mean this topic has been inactive since April ! LOL. Can't they find something more recent to complain about?
If it wern't for people sharing their knowledge, like you Gearedfast, I would have abandoned this site long ago.

 

[AHicks]

FYI, not looking for an argument. I could care less if you have a drippy geared hub sitting in your garage. What I AM after is a better understanding. I like to learn more about stuff like this as well. And I can read, and fully comprehend, what I'm reading quite well thank you. What I see is you guys grab "facts" that suite your purpose out of the air with no documentation to back it and advertise it as well known facts. Then both of you get all pissy when somebody questions you about these "facts".

I've read the entire contents of this collection of best guesses with NOT ONE LINK TO SUPPORT some of these "truths" you profess - until the Grin Chart in post#50. That chart does support some of what's being said (it's really too bad that couldn't have been posted earlier). It also shows a few other details I've seen no mention of. Like the fact that the chart shows values optimized by the fact that the controller was cold when tested, with a significant drop when tested with a warmed up controller. Admittedly though, that's splitting hairs in a conversation regarding oil cooling.

So moving forward, the point is some documentation to support claims being made would help THIS curmudgeon believe ideas like the one being discussed, and nobody had to be insulted in order for that link to be posted. Maybe we could limit the insults as well? Some are pretty funny, but really, the only purpose they serve is to make YOU feel better. They don't lend one tiny bit to your credibility or the point you're trying to make.

From here, I'd like more detail. Like how was the proper oil level arrived at, and commonly accepted ways of checking/adding/maintaining the oil level. Gearedfast, you say you've done this to your G310. Maybe a pic to show how you are doing this? -Al

 

[JES2020]

Has anyone had any luck, good or otherwise, partly filling your geared hub motors with automatic trani fluid ( ATF)?
Interested to find out what the cooling results were, as well as what type and how much ATF was used, any leaking issues etc?

For the naysayers:
The future is today !

Falco patents liquid-cooled electric bicycle motor, opening possibilities

The enemy of electric vehicle motors is heat, regardless of whether we’re talking about electric cars or electric bikes. And...

electrek.co

 

[Gearedfast]

FYI, not looking for an argument. I could care less if you have a drippy geared hub sitting in your garage. What I AM after is a better understanding. I like to learn more about stuff like this as well. And I can read, and fully comprehend, what I'm reading quite well thank you. What I see is you guys grab "facts" that suite your purpose out of the air with no documentation to back it and advertise it as well known facts. Then both of you get all pissy when somebody questions you about these "facts".

I've read the entire contents of this collection of best guesses with NOT ONE LINK TO SUPPORT some of these "truths" you profess - until the Grin Chart in post#50. That chart does support some of what's being said (it's really too bad that couldn't have been posted earlier). It also shows a few other details I've seen no mention of. Like the fact that the chart shows values optimized by the fact that the controller was cold when tested, with a significant drop when tested with a warmed up controller. Admittedly though, that's splitting hairs in a conversation regarding oil cooling.

So moving forward, the point is some documentation to support claims being made would help THIS curmudgeon believe ideas like the one being discussed, and nobody had to be insulted in order for that link to be posted. Maybe we could limit the insults as well? Some are pretty funny, but really, the only purpose they serve is to make YOU feel better. They don't lend one tiny bit to your credibility or the point you're trying to make.

From here, I'd like more detail. Like how was the proper oil level arrived at, and commonly accepted ways of checking/adding/maintaining the oil level. Gearedfast, you say you've done this to your G310. Maybe a pic to show how you are doing this? -Al

I think we know what the only drip is here! still amazing something as simple as adding a bit of oil to a sealed motor gets some close-minded backward thinking crusty folks panties in a bunch, so simple in fact it kind of explains itself

 

[AHicks]

I think we know what the only drip is here! still amazing something as simple as adding a bit of oil to a sealed motor gets some close-minded backward thinking crusty folks panties in a bunch, so simple in fact it kind of explains itself

So you're going to sit there in arm chair commando mode, and tell us that you've not only figured out what an oil cooled, geared rear hub motor is, you've gone ahead and set YOURS up with oil cooling, and further, it doesn't leak? I say BS. Where are the pics? And don't be copy and pasting some pic you find on the internet. I may be a "close-minded backward thinking crusty old folk w/panties in a bunch" but I know how to do a search on a picture. Save us the trouble.

 

[Gearedfast]

So you're going to sit there in arm chair commando mode, and tell us that you've not only figured out what an oil cooled, geared rear hub motor is, you've gone ahead and set YOURS up with oil cooling, and further, it doesn't leak? I say BS. Where are the pics? And don't be copy and pasting some pic you find on the internet. I may be a "close-minded backward thinking crusty old folk w/panties in a bunch" but I know how to do a search on a picture. Save us the trouble.

Happy New Year! and good luck and all to ya

 

[JES2020]

Happy New Year! and good luck and all to ya

The net is infested, this site is no different, anonymity seems bring out the trolls from under the bridge .
I just put them on ignore, let them fester in their ignorance,( karma never forgets ) and enjoy the fact loving, knowledgeable, NICE ppl !!
Happy hew year to you as well !

 

[tomjasz]

Karma the most misused term in the American lexicon. It’s not punishment. I went back and reviewed the thread on ES with Justin’s posts. It’s clear neither the OP nor you have a better understanding. Please don’t poke at others as being unable to read when clearly you have no better comprehension.

 

[Gearedfast]

The net is infested, this site is no different, anonymity seems bring out the trolls from under the bridge .
I just put them on ignore, let them fester in their ignorance,( karma never forgets ) and enjoy the fact loving, knowledgeable, NICE ppl !!
Happy hew year to you as well !

Not sure how effective the ignore feature is since the braindead troll haunting this thread is apparently incapable of growing up taking a hint and moving on so mental diarrhea will still be posted, Lol

Anyway enough, thanks for the post on the liquid-cooled motor hope it is something that catches on across the industry, rear-wheel hub motors with thru-axle hubs would be nice as well!

 

[JES2020]

Not sure how effective the ignore feature is since the braindead troll haunting this thread is apparently incapable of growing up taking a hint and moving on so mental diarrhea will still be posted, Lol

Anyway enough, thanks for the post on the liquid-cooled motor hope it is something that catches on across the industry, rear-wheel hub motors with thru-axle hubs would be nice as well!

When I need to get another kit, it will be high powered, with a modded 30 amp controller ( at least). Then for the spike in amps, I will also liquid cool the motor. look out 40 plus mph, here I come !
BTW when you iggy someone, you don't see their blather on your screen.