Wahoo ELEMNT vs. Garmin EDGE (as E-Bike GPS Displays)

[BlackHand]

I gotta have cadence and 3s power. I've ridden so long with it. The four screens plus the Mode on the Kiox have all the data that I need from the bike. I just wish it were on one 10-screen Garmin display.

This is my first e-bike. I have no regrets.

Yeah, you have to be somewhat accepting when you buy into a 10 year old platform with a 6 year old display. (I also bought a new old stock bike last fall)

FWIW, the Nyon display lets you configure up to 6 fields per screen, but it's biggest feature are custom assist modes. But I think they just killed off the back end purchasing on these displays so you probably can't access it.

On my Kiox, it seems like 3 minutes or so. I use that along with RPE and HR to gauge fitness after a ride.

I am 99% certain Average Power on the Bosch display is for your whole trip (or ride depending on your settings) not just the last several minutes.

Power is definitely averaging multiple readings but I would guess it's more like a 1 second avg not 3 sec. Starting and stopping in ur an traffic and climbing hills you can see it jump around 2x or 3x per second. I would think a 3 sec average would normalize the numbers a lot more.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The first good thing I could find in Garmin was Smart Range. None of my Specialized e-bike can calculate the battery range (as these are older e-bikes). Garmin does it and not badly at all!
The second good thing is AUTO Wheel Circumference. While Wahoo requires giving a good value of WhC for a connected e-bike, Garmin can take the distance and speed from the GPS and back-calculate the wheel circumference. Approved!
The third good thing is an independent application (data field) Garminfly Wind that will show the wind direction relative to the ride direction and with wind speed displayed as well. The data are taken from the weather forecast on the connected smartphone. I need to test the feature more to make sure it works well.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Again, it's one metric out of three that tell me how I am doing at any given moment. When I was training and racing 6 days/week, it was very important. If I was supposed to stay in zone 2, that correlates to an average power number that I had to stay under. If I was doing interval training, 3s power would tell me if my 200% (2x FTP) intervals were at 200%.

For me now, it's about getting fitness back. I ride a lot of the same roads under similar, but not exactly the same (not indoor) conditions. If I'm going on a 1 mile stretch on a false flat up that I did the week before at 170w, and I'm doing it today at 150w, at the same assist level, and my RPE and HR are similar or less, then my fitness may be improving. So I watch it, to correlate how I'm feeling. The e-bike adds another dimension with the assist. On my early rides, I rode on Eco (Mode 1) on the way out, until I got tired, then increased to Sport (Mode 2) for the rest of the ride. On my last ride, I rode in Off (Mode 0) for five miles, then Eco to the terminus and part way back, before increasing to Sport, partly to increase speed so that I could return before 5pm. It was more of a workout. My goal is to ride to ride to Provincetown and back on one charge this summer. That's the extent of my "training".

Very helpful! Have read up on these metrics, but no substitute for hearing real-life examples. Will pay more attention to the correlation between RPE and the rider power (Pr) on my display.

Have yet to test my FTP, but used a reasonable guess from my Pr data (175W or 2.0 W/kg) to set the Pr zone boundaries above.

Followed all but the part of the quote I put in bold. Could the 170W and 150W figures there have been reversed?

 

[stompandgo]

Very helpful! Have read up on these metrics, but no substitute for hearing real-life examples. Will pay more attention to the correlation between RPE and the rider power (Pr) on my display.

View attachment 193423
Have yet to test my FTP, but used a reasonable guess from my Pr data (175W or 2.0 W/kg) to set the Pr zone boundaries above.

Followed all but the part of the quote I put in bold. Could the 170W and 150W figures there have been reversed?

Yes, I went back and fixed it. The point was, the ability to put out more power without feeling more fatigue, and thus more speed, may be due to increased fitness. It may also be due to better rest. It's all related. You've ridden many miles, and know your body. The data is there to correlate how you feel with actual data. It's necessary to track all this if you compete at a high level. It's nice to have if you don't. I've been riding with power data for over 15 years, so it's part of my ride experience.

As for FTP tests, there's two main ways to do it with any accuracy. Hard (20 minute) or really hard (60 minute). The 5 minute step tests are not worth your time, IMO.

 

[stompandgo]

Yeah, you have to be somewhat accepting when you buy into a 10 year old platform with a 6 year old display. (I also bought a new old stock bike last fall)

Absolutely. I got a hell of a lot of bike for $2,200.00.

FWIW, the Nyon display lets you configure up to 6 fields per screen, but it's biggest feature are custom assist modes. But I think they just killed off the back end purchasing on these displays so you probably can't access it.

I have the Garmin set up for 8 fields and the Kiox for four. I could lose a couple but 6 isn't enough.

I am 99% certain Average Power on the Bosch display is for your whole trip (or ride depending on your settings) not just the last several minutes.

Power is definitely averaging multiple readings but I would guess it's more like a 1 second avg not 3 sec. Starting and stopping in ur an traffic and climbing hills you can see it jump around 2x or 3x per second. I would think a 3 sec average would normalize the numbers a lot more.

I could not find any info on the Bosch field definitions. I'll watch it more closely on my next ride.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Pertinent to the OP:

Q1. Minimum number of data fields you could get by with for routine riding — across all displays in your cockpit?

Include only fields accessible with at most a single convenient button press. Exclude navigation.

Q2. What would those essential fields be?

I'll start.
Q1. 6
Q2. Assist level, battery remaining, ground speed, cadence, rider power, time of day.

All 6 fields are available on my Vado SL's built-in display (Mastermind TCU) over 2 pages I can toggle with a single button press on the handlebar remote.

Keep a phone on the bar mainly for recording and nav purposes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I chose a Wahoo ELEMNT Roam 2 because it can display up to 11 data fields in the Workout screen:

1. Speed
2. Distance
3. Riding time
4. Distance to destination (MI TO GO), requires active navigation, N/A otherwise
5. Clock (Time of Day)
6. LEV Travel Mode (e.g., ECO or MICRO)
7. Ambient Temperature
8. LEV Batteries Level % (works for RE, too)
9. Average Speed
10. Cadence
11. 3s Power

The choice of the data fields is totally up to the user.

I only keep two data screens active: Workout and Map (Navigation). The Map screen tells me (in addition to the course):

1. Speed
2. Heading (like, NE)
3. Distance to Cue (with active navigation, disappears otherwise)
4. Clock
5. Distance to Destination (with active navigation, the data field disappears otherwise)
6. Distance Ridden
7. Map (obligatory)

The choice of the data fields is totally up to the user.

In case I expect climbing, I reach out for the smartphone and activate the Summit screen:

1. Power W 3s
2. LEV Travel Mode (like, TURBO)
3. Speed
4. Grade %
5. Remaining distance of ascent
6. Clock
7. Elevation
8. Elevation map with colour coded grades (obligatory).

The choice of the data fields is totally up to the user.

All the data fields are selected on a smartphone, so any configuration is custom. (I need to stress out Garmin cannot have that many data fields per screen; you need extra data screens).

You may not use the Summit screen. However, that screen can pop up automatically (on demand) whenever a hill is detected. It can be a hill on a route or just detected nearby.

Important: The data screen design is done in the order of the most to the least important data field. You can at any time press the side Up button to decrease the number of data fields and make them larger! Or, the opposite way with the Down button.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

As for FTP tests, there's two main ways to do it with any accuracy. Hard (20 minute) or really hard (60 minute). The 5 minute step tests are not worth your time, IMO.

Opinion on the 8-minute variant? After warming up, do two 8-minute max efforts with a 10-minute rest in between. Take the higher of the 2 average rider power figures and deduct 10% to get FTP. Supposedly correlates well with 20-minute FTPs and lactate studies.

Guessing that the "average" rider power to use here is just the straight time average, not normalized power. No clear consensus on how to warm up and rest.

Hard to find places to do even an 8-minute max effort undisturbed. The best bet nearby is the flattish, straightish 9-mile paved bike trail along the San Luis Rey River east of Oceanside. Allowing for small disturbances on both runs, yesterday's 8-minute test there yielded 185W (2.1 W/kg).

OK for a 76 year-old per this chart...

...but not even "fair" on this one. Pogi's current FTP is literally off this chart at over 7 W/kg.

 

[stompandgo]

I've used the 8 minute variant ONLY to verify a full 20 or 60 minute test. I would never set a training plan with one.

When I was racing at the national level, my FTP was 310w. I was racing at 63kg so 4.92w/kg. I could not sustain that FTP all season long. I would peak three times during the season for targeted races. That Training Peaks chart is the source of a lot of controversy in the amateur racing world. Some take it as gospel, and it's not. Racing is a lot more about technique and tactics than raw power.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I installed the 540 permanently on my big Vado. As this e-bike (contrary to Vado SL) has a display, I can see Assist Mode and Battery % on the e-bike display, which has freed some data fields on Garmin. Next, I decided I didn't want to see my Power 3s, which is hopeless anyway

The inaccuracy of the Garmin Edge thermometer was the last straw. In the warm season, the Garmin thermometer shows temperature higher than actual by five degrees Celsius, which is totally unacceptable.

Now, I use a Workout data screen and the Map screen (like in Wahoo) with optional Climb Pro (like Wahoo Summit).

Garmin Smart Range seems to give reasonable results (my big e-bike cannot calculate the battery range itself). I will spend some time to assess the value of Smart Range.

 

[stompandgo]

I hated Climb Pro. It showed up with an upgrade and I had to figure out how to shut it off completely.

I really hope that more manufacturers see the value of ANT+ LEV and adopt it. Bosch in particular. They will never be able to innovate bike computers as well or as fast as the rest of the market. It's a futile endeavor.

 

[jabberwocky]

Thermometer and barometer are two sensors that are more "general sense of what they are measuring" on any bike computer IME. They've gotten better over the years, but have never been super accurate. If the computer is in the sun it will read much higher than ambient anyway.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It was 22 C inside the room.

Wahoo is -3 C off below 15 C, which is consistent on any Wahoo computer but it is accurate from 15 C up.

 

[jabberwocky]

I checked my 530 just out of curiosity, and it says 72 in my office which is actually 69 or so. So it reads 3f high, which is 1.5c? I've never had temp on any of my data screens.

I guess if thermometer accuracy on a ride is important to you, get a wahoo. I personally just look at national weather service before I ride.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I guess if thermometer accuracy on a ride is important to you, get a wahoo.

I use Wahoo on my Vado SL and indeed I use the thermometer there. With a Garmin on Vado 6.0? Well, will occasionally check the accurate weather forecast (Weather Underground) on my phone.

The thermometer is an important information source during my winter rides but also in the Spring and Autumn, when the evening temperature can suddenly drop. Last Summer, I had an interesting observation during a group ride with friends on a hot day. We suffered from the heat and I asked my friends for a stop by a convenience store, where I quickly had a cup of hot coffee. When I finished, I asked my friends "Seems to have cooled down, hasn't it?" The female friend said I only felt that way after drinking hot coffee fast. We restarted the ride and I could see the ambient temperature dropping and dropping every minute on my Wahoo! It was some strange phenomenon!

 

[stompandgo]

I have ambient temp on my Garmin (830) screen because I have room for it. It is nice to know, since the weather changes quickly here. I do have the weather alerts active.

 

[Aushiker]

Thermometer and barometer are two sensors that are more "general sense of what they are measuring" on any bike computer IME. They've gotten better over the years, but have never been super accurate. If the computer is in the sun it will read much higher than ambient anyway.

In my experience, my Garmin one has, at least in the past ( I do not bother with temperature nowadays), reflected the temperature on the bike, that is the heat radiating from the road as opposed to reported or ambient temperature. I actually found this more useful, e.g., 50 C on the bike in the summer versus 40 C reported by the BOM.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

In my experience, my Garmin one has, at least in the past ( I do not bother with temperature nowadays), reflected the temperature on the bike, that is the heat radiating from the road as opposed to reported or ambient temperature. I actually found this more useful, e.g., 50 C on the bike in the summer versus 40 C reported by the BOM.

How come Wahoo reports the ambient temperature correctly but Garmin cannot do it?
A friend who is a Garmin fanatic admitted himself Garmin Edge was +5C off in general. 22 C and 27 C is a fundamental difference. I compared the measurements of both in a room protected from the sunshine by curtains after the two computers were laying aside for many minutes in a controlled space.

 

[Aushiker]

How come Wahoo reports the ambient temperature correctly but Garmin cannot do it?
A friend who is a Garmin fanatic admitted himself Garmin Edge was +5C off in general. 22 C and 27 C is a fundamental difference. I compared the measurements of both in a room protected from the sunshine by curtains after the two computers were laying aside for many minutes in a controlled space.

Feel free to engage with what I actually said ...

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Feel free to engage with what I actually said ...

You said Garmin reflected the perceived temperature. How can a thermometer that is fundamentally inaccurate reflect anything? Pity you don't get frost in AUS because I would like to know your opinion on how Garmin would "reflect actual road conditions" Would it report -5 C with the actual temperature of zero? Or, +5 C?