Oil cooling geared hub motors

[JES2020]

I actually looked at that kit last year.
It is a really small-looking motor almost guaranteed to be overpowered looks more like a common 350-500watt motor.
If he is not listing the motor and he is not telling directly means he either does not know himself or you may not like the answer.
Anyway, that does not mean it is not a good motor. Look on the shell for any identifiers no matter how trivial they look, serial number prefixes are unique to manufactures.
Sometimes you just have to open them up and look for the manufacturer stamp the reason why is it may simply be rebranded or just lacking the original brand, nothing uncommon about it.
The motor looks a lot like a Bafang with the round spoke flanges.
If it has the lock spacers up against the inner race of the sealed bearings it is a good candidate for easy sealing, most likely it does.
And if you open it up and see tiny orange o-rings where the bearing slips over the axle that's even better as that means it is designed to have a waterproof rating, you may be able to add better larger ones just look on Amazon for metric sized silicon o-rings they sell kits cheap.
Most side plates have a large o-ring around them but don't count on it being oil tight

Yeah , I'm pretty sure it's not a normally rated 1500w motor, even the KT manufacturer said that the cable config. on it, is for a motors 750w or less.
Thanks for the ID tips.
I have a couple things I'd like to open the motor for. Prepping for oil cooling is on the list. I'll wait for the winter down time to get into it.
In the mean time between riding it, I'm trying to learn as much about it as possible.

 

[tomjasz]

you may not like the answer.

This.

 

[tomjasz]

Yeah , I'm pretty sure it's not a normally rated 1500w motor, even the KT manufacturer said that the cable config. on it, is for a motors 750w or less.
Thanks for the ID tips.
I have a couple things I'd like to open the motor for. Prepping for oil cooling is on the list. I'll wait for the winter down time to get into it.
In the mean time between riding it, I'm trying to learn as much about it as possible.

You have overheating issues?

 

[indianajo]

Complete bosh IMHO. Neither of the 3 hub motors I've owned had sealed wire entry. Your bike never falls over? Mine does. Fluid on the ground and wires attracting dirt because they are covered in ATF. Plus the covers come loose, 2 or 3 times a year if I forget to retorque the screws. When it makes a snapping noise, the cover is loose. Replaced the torx screws on one motor cover with phillips so I could retighten on the road. Blue loktite didn't decrease the frequency of loosening. Red loktite would but the flame necessary to loosen it to grease the gears would likely melt some of the electrical stuff.
I could redesign the motor to be cooled by fluid, but as soon as I did bright boys in some foreign country would copy it and flood the market with cheap imitations. Look what happened to Segway. Customs wouldn't even keep the copies out of the country.
I don't have the $100000000 necessary to defend a patent. Consider how rich Tesla got from designing the 3 phase electrical system. (not).

 

[JES2020]

Complete bosh IMHO. Neither of the 3 hub motors I've owned had sealed wire entry. Your bike never falls over? Mine does. Fluid on the ground and wires attracting dirt because they are covered in ATF. Plus the covers come loose, 2 or 3 times a year if I forget to retorque the screws. When it makes a snapping noise, the cover is loose. Replaced the torx screws on one motor cover with phillips so I could retighten on the road. Blue loktite didn't decrease the frequency of loosening. Red loktite would but the flame necessary to loosen it to grease the gears would likely melt some of the electrical stuff.
I could redesign the motor to be cooled by fluid, but as soon as I did bright boys in some foreign country would copy it and flood the market with cheap imitations. Look what happened to Segway. Customs wouldn't even keep the copies out of the country.
I don't have the $100000000 necessary to defend a patent. Consider how rich Tesla got from designing the 3 phase electrical system. (not).

I'm not sure what you are calling complete bosh.
Oil cooling GHMs has been around for decades now.
The main point of this conversation is how to seal the motor to prevent leaks.
Gearedfast give a very detailed method for sealing the motors, including sealing the wire entry's.
Have you read his posts here?

 

[tomjasz]

decades

Decades?

 

[indianajo]

The main point of this conversation is how to seal the motor to prevent leaks.
Gearedfast give a very detailed method for sealing the motors, including sealing the wire entry's.

Sealing motors that the covers won't stay on more than a year? HaHaHaHaHaHaHa. I've worked with industrial automotive & military equipment. The designers couldn't even keep the river water out of the final drives of Mobile Assault Bridges. Or the lubricant in. Best plan automotive is to put drains in the bottom to let the water out but not the ATF. I had a Ford automotive transmission ruined because high water got in and corroded one of the solenoid cavities out of round. I found ford starters that had drains to let the water out lasted longer than my best friend's Volkswagen, whose starter was "sealed." Lots of high water in Houston.

 

[JES2020]

Sealing motors that the covers won't stay on more than a year? HaHaHaHaHaHaHa. I've worked with industrial automotive & military equipment. The designers couldn't even keep the river water out of the final drives of Mobile Assault Bridges. Or the lubricant in. Best plan automotive is to put drains in the bottom to let the water out but not the ATF. I had a Ford automotive transmission ruined because high water got in and corroded one of the solenoid cavities out of round. I found ford starters that had drains to let the water out lasted longer than my best friend's Volkswagen, whose starter was "sealed." Lots of high water in Houston.

I have had my bike for over a year and the motor cover is still on.... huh, maybe I got a good one?
In any case, those covers that you have, that come off every year? Were they sealed?
What does "high water" have to do with this discussion? Were talking about keeping ATF in, not water out.
Like I said this oil cooling idea has been around for decades....like the old saying goes "don't knock it till you've tried it"

 

[Gearedfast]

Yeah , I'm pretty sure it's not a normally rated 1500w motor, even the KT manufacturer said that the cable config. on it, is for a motors 750w or less.
Thanks for the ID tips.
I have a couple things I'd like to open the motor for. Prepping for oil cooling is on the list. I'll wait for the winter down time to get into it.
In the mean time between riding it, I'm trying to learn as much about it as possible.

I'm not sure what you are calling complete bosh.
Oil cooling GHMs has been around for decades now.
The main point of this conversation is how to seal the motor to prevent leaks.
Gearedfast give a very detailed method for sealing the motors, including sealing the wire entry's.
Have you read his posts here?

I'm not sure what you are calling complete bosh.
Oil cooling GHMs has been around for decades now.
The main point of this conversation is how to seal the motor to prevent leaks.
Gearedfast give a very detailed method for sealing the motors, including sealing the wire entry's.
Have you read his posts here?

Don't sweat it kid there are always "those" who can't hold their own since their experience is based on what they read? or actual real failure, either way, they don't know much about anything. If they want to trade actual punches I can produce actual data, so not likely they will.
And it looks like none have given me the opportunity.
Also as Ken M brought up the excellent German company Heinzman produces oil-cooled hub motors no problem and it is actually very common in many applications especially underwater

 

[JES2020]

Don't sweat it kid there are always "those" who can't hold their own since their experience is based on what they read? or actual real failure, either way, they don't know much about anything. If they want to trade actual punches I can produce actual data, so not likely they will.
And it looks like none have given me the opportunity.
Also as Ken M brought up the excellent German company Heinzman produces oil-cooled hub motors no problem and it is actually very common in many applications especially underwater

Not sweating, just tired of the senseless resistance.
It's somewhat hard to get "advice" from some, on this forum, I can count the helpful ones on one hand.
On the other hand, seems there's always someone who wants to knock down ideas !
That's why I am so pleased with your detailed explanations.
If you know anymore helpful ppl like you, BRING THEM HERE ! LOL

 

[Gearedfast]

Complete bosh IMHO. Neither of the 3 hub motors I've owned had sealed wire entry. Your bike never falls over? Mine does. Fluid on the ground and wires attracting dirt because they are covered in ATF. Plus the covers come loose, 2 or 3 times a year if I forget to retorque the screws. When it makes a snapping noise, the cover is loose. Replaced the torx screws on one motor cover with phillips so I could retighten on the road. Blue loktite didn't decrease the frequency of loosening. Red loktite would but the flame necessary to loosen it to grease the gears would likely melt some of the electrical stuff.
I could redesign the motor to be cooled by fluid, but as soon as I did bright boys in some foreign country would copy it and flood the market with cheap imitations. Look what happened to Segway. Customs wouldn't even keep the copies out of the country.
I don't have the $100000000 necessary to defend a patent. Consider how rich Tesla got from designing the 3 phase electrical system. (not).

Sorry, but what you all just said makes absolutely no sense, and as you say baloney, Lol
I actually explained how easy it is to seal a motor, no patent needed just common sense and mechanical knowledge and good silicon oil proof sealant and gasket maker and maybe some o-rings as material, and of course some proper tools.
That is literally all you need besides a halfway decent working brain.
I spent no more than 3 hours sealing the first motor I had extreme over amp'd, I literally did not even care if it worked let alone perfectly since I just wanted an Idea if it were even possible.
The results blew me away, no leaks, and seriously good results significant temperature drops.
That is still the case today months on.
So put a plugin it and realize the bosh is all yours

 

[tomjasz]

Not sweating, just tired of the senseless resistance.
It's somewhat hard to get "advice" from some, on this forum, I can count the helpful ones on one hand.
On the other hand, seems there's always someone who wants to knock down ideas !
That's why I am so pleased with your detailed explanations.
If you know anymore helpful ppl like you, BRING THEM HERE ! LOL

You’re quick to get in a pissing match. Making some posters just ignore. endless_sphere has scores of cooling threads. That said most here could give a hoot.

 

[Gearedfast]

You’re quick to get in a pissing match. Making some posters just ignore. endless_sphere has scores of cooling threads. That said most here could give a hoot.

Not a pissing match at all just stating facts for the record for people that actually like real facts instead of opinion based on failures of others and not success.
And I am quite aware of Endless-Sphere and even who hosts it, so give it a rest.
Also as one of the other commenters of this thread noted Heinzmann electric motors actually produce oil-cooled electric hub motors, gee how do you suppose they did that magic maybe? or perhaps good common sense tried and true engineering?
The bottom line don't base your assumptions on the failures of failure, I am very happy I did not.
Good luck to you.

 

[tomjasz]

On the other hand, seems there's always someone who wants to knock down ideas

No one is knocking. Just suggesting this isn’t needed if riders stay within specs. I’ve seen issues were posters an support calls show this isn’t a mainstream need. Much ado about nothing.

Not a pissing match at all just stating facts for the record for people that actually like real facts instead of opinion based on failures of others and not success.
And I am quite aware of Endless-Sphere and even who hosts it, so give it a rest.
Also as one of the other commenters of this thread noted Heinzmann electric motors actually produce oil-cooled electric hub motors, gee how do you suppose they did that magic maybe? or perhaps good common sense tried and true engineering?
The bottom line don't base your assumptions on the failures of failure, I am very happy I did not.
Good luck to you.

my pint is this is not a mainstream solution. My response was to JES. Known to take the piss in more threads than this. Hienzman? Who in this thread runs one? Last a tried to order one of their motors COVID prevented shipping. The typical rider here isn’t willing to take oil cooling risks. And with that I’m unsubscribing. I can handle knee deep in BS, but this thread has gone waist high. Plonk.

 

[Gearedfast]

No one is knocking. Just suggesting this isn’t needed if riders stay within specs. I’ve seen issues were posters an support calls show this isn’t a mainstream need. Much ado about nothing.

my pint is this is not a mainstream solution. My response was to JES. Known to take the piss in more threads than this. Hienzman? Who in this thread runs one? Last a tried to order one of their motors COVID prevented shipping. The typical rider here isn’t willing to take oil cooling risks. And with that I’m unsubscribing. I can handle knee deep in BS, but this thread has gone waist high. Plonk.

You really should have a more open mind. One of the great things about hub motors is their simplicity and the ability to push them to the limits, this is what enthusiasts like about them and do just that. sorry if you don't get that is half the fun of it.
So if you only have negative responses based on other people's failed experience vs. your own doubtful anyone is going to miss you at all, I know I won't. I want real feedback, not BS

 

[JES2020]

Not a pissing match at all just stating facts for the record for people that actually like real facts instead of opinion based on failures of others and not success.
And I am quite aware of Endless-Sphere and even who hosts it, so give it a rest.
Also as one of the other commenters of this thread noted Heinzmann electric motors actually produce oil-cooled electric hub motors, gee how do you suppose they did that magic maybe? or perhaps good common sense tried and true engineering?
The bottom line don't base your assumptions on the failures of failure, I am very happy I did not.
Good luck to you.

I used to be in a experimental aircraft forum and it was simular to this one. a small % were trolls driven by damaged egos, if they can't figure something out, it must mean it's impossible.
I just put them on ignore and move on.
Lift is too short to waste on some dinosaur aged curmudgeons.

 

[JES2020]

You really should have a more open mind. One of the great things about hub motors is their simplicity and the ability to push them to the limits, this is what enthusiasts like about them and do just that. sorry if you don't get that is half the fun of it.
So if you only have negative responses based on other people's failed experience vs. your own doubtful anyone is going to miss you at all, I know I won't. I want real feedback, not BS

tomjiz was the first one I put on ignore. The reason is obvious.

 

[tomjasz]

Heinzmann

That's one! FFS how many here ever heard of Heinszman much less ride with their motor?

 

[AHicks]

I used to be in a experimental aircraft forum and it was simular to this one. a small % were trolls driven by damaged egos, if they can't figure something out, it must mean it's impossible.
I just put them on ignore and move on.
Lift is too short to waste on some dinosaur aged curmudgeons.

This is coming from a crusty old "dinosaur aged curmudgeon" so take it for whatever it's worth. I'd just like to supply some things for you to mull over a bit.

First, I doubt SERIOUSLY you have a 1500w geared hub. You may have a smaller geared hub you are feeding with 1500w, but you do not have a 1500w motor just because your KT display will go that high when you apply enough power. This is a fact. There's no guessing to this. There is only one geared hub available that SOME might rate at 1500 watts under certain conditions, and it's by MAC. Unless you bought this entire motor and had it laced to a wheel to fit your bike, you do not have a MAC motor. IF you are convinced/sure you have a 1500 watt motor, you're pretty sure it's not a direct drive?

Second, the fact that there have been oil cooled geared hub motors around for years does NOT mean all geared hub motors are set up for it. There's about a 99.999% chance yours is not set up for it, and if you plan on using it that way, there's going to be some compromises in play. Like a motor that's a mess most of the tjme.

You bring up an interesting idea regarding venting. I think that the few ounces of fluid you use will likely leave enough air in there to allow for it, but any little tiny crack is going to leak if/when submerged in fluid due to internal pressure. Which brings up another idea.

The hub is not going to be filled with fluid. At rest, there's just going to be a little in the bottom. At speed, that little bit is going to be spread around the entire perimeter of the interior. It's not very likely the bearings or gears will ever be submerged, only splashed, just like the shaft with it's wire exit.

That's it from me. If you want to try this, my advice would be be prepared for a mess, at least until you get it all figured out. It won't be until you get to that point where you'll be able to tell yourself for sure whether the exercise was worth it, or even if the wet hub makes a significant (worth the time and trouble) in the motors ability to cool itself. That vs. just buying something different that will be capable of doing whatever it is you want to do easily, without the increased maintenance or jumping through hoops.

Your call..... Best of luck.

 

[JES2020]

This is coming from a crusty old "dinosaur aged curmudgeon" so take it for whatever it's worth. I'd just like to supply some things for you to mull over a bit.

First, I doubt SERIOUSLY you have a 1500w geared hub. You may have a smaller geared hub you are feeding with 1500w, but you do not have a 1500w motor just because your KT display will go that high when you apply enough power. This is a fact. There's no guessing to this. There is only one geared hub available that SOME might rate at 1500 watts under certain conditions, and it's by MAC. Unless you bought this entire motor and had it laced to a wheel to fit your bike, you do not have a MAC motor. IF you are convinced/sure you have a 1500 watt motor, you're pretty sure it's not a direct drive?

Second, the fact that there have been oil cooled geared hub motors around for years does NOT mean all geared hub motors are set up for it. There's about a 99.999% chance yours is not set up for it, and if you plan on using it that way, there's going to be some compromises in play. Like a motor that's a mess most of the tjme.

You bring up an interesting idea regarding venting. I think that the few ounces of fluid you use will likely leave enough air in there to allow for it, but any little tiny crack is going to leak if/when submerged in fluid due to internal pressure. Which brings up another idea.

The hub is not going to be filled with fluid. At rest, there's just going to be a little in the bottom. At speed, that little bit is going to be spread around the entire perimeter of the interior. It's not very likely the bearings or gears will ever be submerged, only splashed, just like the shaft with it's wire exit.

That's it from me. If you want to try this, my advice would be be prepared for a mess, at least until you get it all figured out. It won't be until you get to that point where you'll be able to tell yourself for sure whether the exercise was worth it, or even if the wet hub makes a significant (worth the time and trouble) in the motors ability to cool itself. That vs. just buying something different that will be capable of doing whatever it is you want to do easily, without the increased maintenance or jumping through hoops.

Your call..... Best of luck.

I know it's been a a couple of months, but you really should read thru the entire topic again, if you haven't already. If you have , read it again and again if necessary .
In other words every one of your arguments have been corrected already ! You simply just wasted your time with this post.