Mixed (conventional & e-Bikes) Group Road Rides

bikatwk

New Member
I would appreciate all input on Mixed Group Road Rides. This question/topic will be at the end of my presentation to a local bicycle club on "Using an E-Bike - Individually or in a Group."

See attached slides, as part of my presentation.

Thank you in advance & Happy New Year!🎉

Clint S.
The Retired LEO & eBike Guy⚡
 

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I do a fair amount of "mixed type" bike rides, both small low level, and big charity events with several 100 to 1,000 riders. You'll find lots of hybrids, cruisers, mountain bikes, commuter, fat tire, trikes, and even bikes with kiddie trailers taking part in the recreational ride. An ebike is no different, and is merely one of the many bike types.

Where a rider choses to put themselves in a group should be based upon where their personal comfort level is. Front, middle, or back, or a mixture all of the aforementioned at any time during the ride. I have ridden either a Level 2 or a Level 1 in all of the group and charity rides I've attended in the past 4 years. I am just one of the many many bikes in those groups, and act accordingly: polite, friendly, courteous, helpful, and considerate. It is recreation, not competition. Common courtesy and accepted biking etiquette should prevail first and foremost in all cases, regardless

Not being disrespectful because I can see you want to impart advice to those who have an ebike and might be uncertain, but if you feel the need to segregate riders based on their bicycle types by even posing these type of questions, you're doing a disservice to those people up front.

I think your message should be that it doesn't matter WHAT one choses to ride in a group, but what matters is HOW one rides, and why all need to follow standard biking etiquette, especially when it comes to drafting.

But since you posed the questions in hopes of answers, here are mine:

1. Yes.
2. Anywhere the cyclist feels most comfortable. Front, middle, or last. If it is a "led group" then somewhere in the body of the group. Not polite to pass the leader unless you want to get ahead to take photos of the group, and then you should ask first.
3. Mostly hill climbing. Just swing wide to the left to prevent getting bogged down by slower riders. Or wait for the majority to get up the hill before you follow them. If the ride has a leader, wait for them to finish the hill first, if possible. Otherwise, wait at the top until the group has reassembled.
4. Entirely up to the rider, just as it is for every other rider in the group.
5. No. Common sense and knowledge of standard bike etiquette should suffice.
6. (No answer)
7. No. That is segregation at its worst.
8. It's a bike. Just ride it and don't overthink it.
 
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Agreed.
Early in my ebike use I made the mistake of passing the leader. Got mixed reactions.
Stay in the middle and wait for others to go up a hill.
 
Fantastic input and insight Readytoride and Marci Jo! This will help me!

Through this presentation, I hope to educate the club members as to:
  1. What an eBike is (legally & just a "bike with a boost" -- per PeopleForBikes).
  2. The Laws (federal, state, & local) pertaining to eBikes. PeopleForBikes is a FANTASTIC resource!
  3. How to safely, legally, revelantly, cooperatively ride a heavier and faster eBike (especially for those older and less-skilled riders) INDIVIDUALLY and in a GROUP (on- & off-road). CyclingSavvy is a FANTASTIC resource for driving your bike in traffic!
  4. Riding with respect, not flaunting your power, in a group.
  5. Awareness of mounting, dismounting, possible "lurching" and "motor overrun" issues on an eBike.
  6. And so on.
  7. Discussion and eBike demos at the end.
Thank you to all who replied!
CS⚡
 
1. It depends on the group and if they are comfortable with the ebike rider. In my experience some of the faster paced roadie rides will not be very accepting of any ebike rider unless it was someone they trusted. Some groups are very relaxed while others require significant riding skills to not endanger the group.
2. Assuming it is a no drop ride, they should be in the back or middle of the pack.
3. Lack of road riding skills and group etiquette
4. No, unless it is a drop ride
5. They should be comfortable riding on the road and the group should be comfortable riding with them. No need for training, the experience comes with more time on the road and learning your limitations
 
Thinking here on what I've personally observed on how my ebike (like a trike or a "different" sort of bike) will make my ride stand out a bit from the crowd:

1. The cadence. It will be quickly noticed by others that the ebike rider's pedal stroke on average, by comparision, will be slower and less hurried than that of unassisted cyclists. The propensity of the e-cyclist to ride in a higher gear (due to the added assist by the motor) will look slightly out of place, and will absolutely make one (at first) be looked at not once, but several times, as the other riders try to see why "that person" is at a very visual low cadence while every one else seems to be at a higher cadence. It becomes almost "in your face" different from what can be considered a "normal pedal stroke " when ascending a hill. It WILL make the ebike stand out, like waving a red flag. This is when the word "cheating" or "cheater" seem to be uttered the most by the unassisted riders, and the time that the ebiker needs to be prepared for - with either a smile and nod or a non-confrontational explanation. The ebiker should understand that chances are 100% that they will stand out at some point during the ride, and not to take any disparaging remarks personally. A friendly smile and simply saying "its an ebike - it helps me keep cycling rather than standing in the sidelines, watching" is often the only explanation needed for an amicable understanding between riders to take place.

2. Your ebike will stand out in appearance. By default it will be much heavier looking in the frame than a nonassisted bike if the ebike is a manufactured PAS. A converted hub bike will be more stealth if the hub is small and the battery hidden. Either way, be prepared to field questions. On average most cyclists are very interested in the other bikes around them and often casual conversations are initiated regarding individual bikes and their advantages. The ebike - being the new kid on the block - will draw attention and sincere interest in both its performance and use. Answering questions in an informative, polite, and friendly way on how the bike works and what its performance capabilities do to help the rider achieve whatever goals were foremost when selecting the ebike for purchase, will go a long way in helping other riders see what an ebike can accomplish in regards to a rider that (oftentimes) can no longer ride without some outside assistance.

3. Acceptance. No one in a group cares what kind of bikes are ridden as long as the riders are polite and follow group cycling etiquette. The ebike tends to level the playing field nicely, but, like any other group activity, one may find they need to go slower, or faster, than their normal to maintain the integrity of the group. If it turns out the speed, or the chosen terrain/venue of the group ride is simply not to ones liking, it is best to accept the situation with good grace for the duration of the ride, and decide after the ride if it would be better to find a different group.

4. Range anxiety. It is a real thing, and will always be on the top of the priority list during any ride because while an ebike will absolutely level the playing field for its rider, it will only do so as long as the battery has the capacity to assist. It will be necessary for the e-cyclist to be very careful that the range of the assistance is well within the distance expected to be covered by the ride. To suddenly lose assistance due to a depleted battery, or a malfunction, can result in either the rider struggling to remain in the group, being dropped, or causing the group to have to stop more frequently for the disabled ebike to catch up. Thus, an e-cyclist should always plan for the worst "what if" scenario, and ways to mitigate problems that may arise. ALWAYS carry a map of the area. ALWAYS. If an extra battery can be carried, then do so for rides longer then 20 miles. Change out the first battery before it reaches its bottom, and try to do it as discretely, and seamlessly, as possible, preferably during a group rest stop or a water break. Stop at the back of the group, make the adjustment and/or swap quietly, and then carry on.

If the battery quits unexpectedly, and the rider finds they cannot keep up with the group without assistance, the polite thing to do is excuse oneself at the next rest stop and return to the group meeting place. Always ask if anyone else wishes to return, and don't be surprised if one or two other riders, for whatever reasons, wish to do so as well.


I'm sure I'll think of more later on, but these points all are part and parcel of what to expect when riding an ebike in a group, and all of them I have personally experienced in one way or another.
 
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I continue to appreciate all your comments! They will be invaluable for me with my presentation!

As mentioned in my original post, this presentation will be for a local bicycle club, made up of roadies. They recently had a member show up with an e-Bike, which apparently caught them off guard. It didn't help the e-Cyclist crashed in a corner.

My hope is I can disspell their concerns and misconceptions of e-Bikes, especially in "mixed" group road rides! Three years ago I began educating and teaching the use of e-Bikes to law enforcement and other public safety agencies. There were a lot of "purist" attitudes and apprehension, but things have slowly changed with more and more agencies using e-Bikes in the U.S. and world!

Hopefully this presentation will be well received by the club and I will have good news to report to all of you afterwards in a follow-up post (February 2020).

Thanks again & Happy New Year!🎉


P.S. Attached is a photo from one of our E-Bike workshops from the IPMBA (International Police Mountain Bike Association) 2020 Conference in Forth Worth.
 

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A big Thank You for volunteering to do this presentation.
Please post the reactions.
 
I ride my full suspension, mid drive, Bosch high speed bikes with a group of road bike riders two or three time per week. When I first started riding I hung back, learned to ride tightly in a pace line and stayed away from the lead. I also learned to pedal at a higher cadence which makes more efficient use of the electric assist and also put my effort in a more efficient range, as well as helping me blend in effort wise with the group. Fairly early on we came around a corner into some strong headwinds. The other riders started grumbling. I moved to the front, offering to provide a draft for the rest of the riders, giving them the benefit of my electrons. That really won me some greater acceptance by some of the doubters in the group. Once they saw that I was working hard, not just relying on a motor with a throttle (my bike has no throttle) and trying to keep humble, acceptance grew.


I like riding fast, ride lots of miles so I have good sustainable power and endurance. Our groups tend to remain at a pace that allows everyone to keep up on the way out and then splits up into faster and slower groups on the return. After I had learned how to keep a steady pace going and also how to keep the assist down and cadence up to climb at the same rate as the others, I asked one of the more amiable fast riders if he would like me to provide some motor pacing. He assented and since then the two of us break away for a 24-27 mph five or six mile sprint on the way back. Often we are joined by other fast riders now. Having a good rear view mirror is invaluable to help me gauge and adjust the correct pace for the other riders.

Earlier this summer eight of us did a 5,000 foot climb over 48 miles up Mount Baker in Northwest Washington, our back yard.

P1032729.JPG


This past Sunday, the three fastest riders invited me to join them on a 60 miles fast ride on rural back roads, in tight formation, trading off the lead and averaging 16 mph with 2,500 feet of climbing. My admiration for these aging athletes is complete and I feel honored that they include me.

DSCF0162.jpg
 
What a story Alaskan!!!

I DO believe if done respectfully and humbly, e-Bikes will more and more be accepted into Road Bike Group Rides!

One question I didn't initially bring up, as you mentioned, was the e-Bike being an asset and help to the entire group. If asked, help with all types of pacing, going back to help with a flat or mechanical, pushing a rider over-the-top or if spent, etc.

What does everyone think of this?

Thanks!
Clint⚡
 
One question I didn't initially bring up, as you mentioned, was the e-Bike being an asset and help to the entire group. If asked, help with all types of pacing, going back to help with a flat or mechanical, pushing a rider over-the-top or if spent, etc.

What does everyone think of this?
I can't speak for everyone. I get the feeling that there are a few ebike haters that keep quiet now with the vast majority clearly accepting and welcoming my participation. I think that knowing my story of near-death, widowmaker heart attack, survival and the fact that the ebike has brought me back to a state of fitness and health my cardiologist call miraculous, has led to a greater acceptance. That and the fact that I am there for nearly every ride and am one of the most reliable participants has earned some respect, in some cases freely given and other grudgingly. I think it also helps that I am quite gregarious and a good joke teller ;)


How's the guy who gave you a hard time until he had the medical issue doing? Has he stuck with it?

He is still riding, has lost weight and his artrial fribrilation has eased off. He rides his custom titanium, rohloff touring bike and his Haibike HS ebike regularly.
 
You misspelled "integrated" ;)

1) Depends on the group and intent of the ride. A social ride, sure. A hardcore training ride? Maybe not.

2) Anywhere, as long as the rider is capable of riding in a bunch. Riding in a paceline is a skill that needs to be learned. Usually, a new rider is among the weaker and ends up in the back where if touch wheels and crash they're not going to take everyone down. Give that rider an ebike, and they could find themselves up at the front which isn't a place for a rider unskilled in such things.

3) See above

4) Nope

5) Not really, but you do need to be able to hold a straight line without wavering all over. Practice by riding on the white line when alone on the road.

6) Training rides with intermittent sprints could be problematic. Ridden by a good rider, motopacing with an ebike could be a great tool though.

7) Only if you want to
 
Very good insight Nutella! Thanks for catching the spelling error! It would have been embarrassing at the presentation.

As to Question 5 and additional savvy cycling training, I was thinking if the e-Bike rider was at the back of the group. What we all call the "rear guard" or "rear group leader" is a VERY important position in keeping the entire group safe! As an example, group lane changes, left turns, right turns, visibly and/or verbally advising drivers of the groups other actions.
 
I have done only one group ride because they are far away from here. There was a 24 mile road ride. I showed up on my Rad Mini and felt a bit awkward but folks were very friendly and curious about my bike. One bystander saw me amongst the sleek road bikes and laughed and gave me a thumbs up. I would pass the slower people on the hills, and they would pass me on the downhills. On the uphills, I was frequently asked if I wanted to trade bikes. This was a led, recreational ride so we'd stop and let all the folks catch up.

I packed a spare battery. They offered to put it in the sag van, but I had it strapped on good. I ended up not needing it.

It was a friendly ride. No rude comments. I answered a lot of questions. I may go next year if they have it and I'll have my much easier to ride Gazelle.

I felt bad because a woman showed up with a very nice ebike but decided not to go. I think the sight of everybody (except me) clad in spandex and with road bikes made her uncomfortable.

I was uncomfortable riding on a highway and I almost didn't go. Unfortunately, the highway was not busy, but the county road, which has no shoulders, was busy.

Ebikes are bikes. As long as it isn't a race, it should be fine to ride them on group rides.
 
awesome article, I have learned not to go fast on the boardwalk . I keep up pace with other bikers and use a low level of assist.
I am 58 so if i ride a nice pace it works for me and those around me. I did pass a car in our development that was going 17 mph.
I live in a seniors development and they were not happy when i passed them. I do not think they would have reacted so crazy if a car passed them.
I only had my e bike one week when i did this and learned a valuable lesson , blend in lol I do not plan on passing anymore cars
 
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