Electric bucket bike with kid cover or regular eBike with Burley

rbullwinkle

New Member
Hey gang,

Obsessive first time buyer here. I think I’ve watched every video Court has ever done.

I hope to soon have a flat 8 mile commute. I have to drop off (or pick up) my 3-year-old at daycare about one mile from my house.

I’m considering either a Riese and Müller Load 75 Vario HS

Or

The Riese and Müller Homage GX Rohloff HS and towing my Burley kid trailer, but probably leaving it at the daycare and picking it up on the way home.

Here’s the thing. To justify this to my practical brain, and my wife’s, I have to give up my car and for at least 2 years. I mean, it’s an experiment I can’t really renig on.

What do you guys think?

-Richard

PS. I have also considered towing the Burley behind an Evelo Aurora Loaded. It’s a much less expensive risk, but has no dual battery option, and much less premium parts.
 
I would keep the car myself. I mean I love the ability to get outside and ride whenever possible, but the more practical side of me says hell no to giving up the car if somebody ask me to choose between them. The car is a necessity. The bike is not. It's that simple here....

Maybe a less expensive bike?
 
In the two kids in proper child seats electric department are the xtracycle.com and yubabikes.com These have the kids behind you. There are also mounts for a bin on the front for groceries, diapers/supplies etc. The pannier bags can carry supplies in the back until the kids legs start hanging down there. The chain steer front fork of a front bin adds a lot of cost. Yuba has a way to graduate to a 5-8 year old riding on a shelf and gripping handlebars. I own a yuba, but have no kids. I do without a running car, but rent U-haul trucks once or twice a year. Renting by the day seems to be a coming thing, cars especially. I haul all groceries, supplies, even home repair supplies on the cargo bike. As far as weather, it gets wet, snowy and cold here. I wear clothes, not a cover. I learned to do that in the Army, but your kids can learn from you. Serious gloves and ear coverings are required below 10 deg F especially with 30 mph winds those days. I use a helmet liner from the welding store and farm supply max cold work gloves.
 
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My car has gotten quite dusty since I got my ebike. Every commuting or errand mile on my ebike is one less on my car, and the wear and tear on an ebike is much cheaper than that on a car, not even considering the fuel savings. AND, it is great exercise. So, the justification to me is that my ebike (even though it was about 3,000 including tax) is environmentally friendlier and more economical than a car AND gives me more regular exercise than I have been getting in years AND is such a great stress-reliever in terms of the sheer enjoyment of riding my bike. I live in a place with crummy (wet and short day) winters, so likely will get heavy use from June-September, medium use in May & October, and lighter use the other six months of the year.

I vote for a cargo bike, considering your kid-related riding interests. Your 3 year old fits in the carrier, but what about a 9 year old? Kids grow very fast. A cargo bike will be great for both your commute AND for carting your kid around to stuff, as well as serving as a better car-substitute for grocery shopping and other errands where you need to haul stuff. I somewhat regret not getting a cargo bike. I did consider trading mine in and getting a cargo bike instead, but I'm not very strong and couldn't handle the weight of the cargobike loaded with a person as well as I would have hoped I could. I bet you are brawnier than me, and it would be no great trick for you!

We are keeping both cars, but with four ebikes in the family now, the two cars were precious little used all summer, for sure.

Happy shopping!
 
Thanks for the replies!

AHicks - I hear you. I actually haven't had a car for 2 months. My wife has one, but the only time I "borrow" it is when I head to the beach with my dog (about 30 miles). I live in the San Francisco Bay area in Palo Alto, which is mostly very flat. We have all the delivery services in the world, great bike lanes, and very favorable weather.

IndianaJo - Thanks for the suggestions! I've looked at some of the long tails. They are cool! Mostly, I want a very reliable bike, so I'm hoping for Bosch, and other name brands. I'm also looking for a NuVinci (or whatever the new name is), or a Rohloff - something that has a fixed-length chain, or a belt drive, and something that needs very little maintenence. The long-tails I've seen all have derailleurs. Did I miss one that has a more modern "transmission"?

Amy - Thanks for your encouraging thoughts! Actually, I have a 3-year-old, yes, but also a 20-year-old and a 23-year-old. I was able to get the older kids on bikes very quickly around the age of 5. By 7, I would ride with them to school as I kick-scootered along behind. By 11, they were out the door by themselves. My point is only that I want them out on their own bikes with me as soon as possible, and learning the rules of the road, and how to deal with absent minded drivers. For that, I'll probably use my scooter or my non-electric bike, and then I'll just use my electric bike for commuting.

Of course, all of that is depended on me having a close job. It's entirely possible that I'll have a commute that requires a car, or a train ride, or maybe even a completely remote job. Who knows? Things change. But if I get the job I'm really hoping for, it's 7.2 miles each way, flat, great weather, and for at least the next 4 years, my youngest will fit in just about anything.

It's good that y'all brought up shopping. I hadn't really even given it much thought, because we don't shop much now. Delivery is great here. And when we go out, we take my wife's car. But I do need to think about the few times a year that delivery, a cargo bike, and my wife's car won't fit what we need. Renting a U-Haul is a great idea. I saw a box truck at Home Depot the other day that was $29 for the first 75 minutes. That's probably how I'll pick up the bike from the shop, which is 35 miles away. And I'm sure i'll need to take it in a few times a year. All things to plan for...

Thanks for your input!
 
Haha! I wish! Riding from San Francisco to Palo Alto is a bit of a gamble...with one's life. There are parts where you have to ride along freeway. I do have a friend who does it. He biked for the Stanford cycling team and considers Super Glue a perfectly viable dressing for a wound. :)

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I bought an IGH when the Shimano 21 speed thumb shifter caused a 7 x 1 cm cyst above my thumb joint. The IGH lasted 500 miles before the shifter clip started popping out of the slot and whanging it into unrideable gear 8. Sturmey Archer S80. So I kept the twist shifter from the S80 but went back to a 7 speed shimano rear derailleur.
By contrast, I put about 8000 miles on a shimano 15 speed derailleur mountain bike. 2 takeups required ($11 each), no chain. Sprocket cluster finally wore out, tips wore off. Couldn't buy a replacement, 6 speed chains were not compatible.
Mid drive electric bikes need a chain about every 2000 KM people are saying? And the 11 speed shimano cluster the lycra crowd are riding, that skinny chain needs replacing about every 1000 miles under human power. 1000 miles is not even a full summer for me. I've put about 1500 miles on the 8 speed shimano cluster with sram shifters that came with my yuba bodaboda in January before I put a direct drive 7 speed hub motor on it 2 weeks ago. No adjustment required in that time. I don't expect the ****ese sprockets on the hub motor to hold up like a shimano or sram, but once I figure out the language to buy a real steel replacement on e-bay that will happen. (you do need a park 3-1 adapter and a 1" socket + breaker bar to get the sprocket cluster off). The 7 speed chain lasts a lot longer than the 10 or 11 speed, and the 5 speed chain (1/8" width) lasts forever, or 10000 miles anyway, under human power. Not changing the chain is important to me, I have 3 chain splitters including a Phelps Dodge, and none of them work on 3/32" width (6-8 speed) chain. And try to buy a master link online. 4 widths of chain and no size descriptions on E-bay or amazon. As far as support, I heard a diatribe on how useless at maintenance the Pedego dealer is here from an owner I met on the road yesterday. No LBS will touch electrics.
I don't know what kind of winds you get in the Bay area, but 20 mph headwind on a huge front cargo tub with rain cover could ruin your whole day. We certainly get that speed wind here. I commute 60 miles RT weekly, and a 9 mph wind can make my human power ride take 5.5 hours instead of 3.6. Hence the electric hub and battery I added to the bodaboda. I'll still ride human powered on a low wind day.
The cool thing about the child seat on the back of a cargo bike option, when the child is at the day care center the seat stays there. Then the wife could pick him/her up in the car. Also the wind profile of a stretch cargo with child seat is behind your back, so not as much force required. Those front load tubs were invented in Amsterdam, where apparently they don't have any wind.
A further advantage of the cargo bikes, loading your body on the front wheel balances the bike better with cargo. I've gone over the handlebars of a mountain bike with 30 lb steel basket on the back, 5 times in 5 years as the front wheel whipped sideways on pavement separators, piles of gravel, or a stick in the road. Hit my chin every time, last November I broke it. My weight distribution on that rig was 20 lb front 100 lb rear with cargo and not me on the bike. That's why I bought the bodaboda.
 
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My wife and I sold our Optima when we got ebikes. (Kept the Outback.) No regrets -- nearly 10 months.

I get wanting a high-end bike, but for what you describe, the dual battery set-up isn't needed. I can get 50-60 miles on a 17.4 Ah battery if I do most of it in the Eco mode (CrossCurrent S.) And I'm old, fat, and have COPD. I also live in an area where I rarely have to ride up hills; that part of Cali is rolling terrain IIRC, so your mileage might vary. @john peck up in the Seattle area has a smaller battery on the same model bike -- 12.8 Ah I think -- and he rides all over the place with no range anxiety at all. I mention this because it will open up your options.

While it's not to everyone's taste, the Juiced Bikes CrossCurrent X offers an awesome level of performance at a moderate price. As far as range goes, I'd take the CCX over any dual-battery bike on the market. I'm trying to figure out how to sell my CCS in order to get the CCX.

Given your proposed use, I'd forego the cargo bike. The Burley will work great until your kids are on their own bike. You have so many options for carrying goods, I'm not sure you'd need the extra space. You could use the Burley for cargo, for that matter, when you're not hauling kids.

My wife and I both put Wald folding baskets on our bikes. Each basket can carry a decent-size canvas tote. They are totally out of the way when you don't need them.

Honestly, you look at photos of what people carry on bikes in China or India and have to realize that limits are pretty much in the mind.
 
My wife and I live in Santa Cruz, without a car, in the winter. Last winter we had 2 R&M Nevo with the NuVinci and had no problem with daily shopping and the hills. We used Racktime baskets and Ortlieb panniers for our grocery shopping. We have grandkids about your child’s age and our daughter has a Burley children carrier but we never felt comfortable towing them along. If you do decide to tow a kid you should add a mirror to the bike. This winter we ordered a second pair of Nevo (the first pair was shipped back to Pennsylvania) with one being the GX Rohloff. We are curious to see how it rides on the coastal and mountain fire roads. The CX motor does have speed limitations for a commuter so maybe the speed motor would be a better choice for relatively flat Palo Alto, However my experience test riding a Bosch Performance Speed motor with the NuVinci CVT was not positive, it really is not a very good hill climber so don’t attempt to take the 17 to the beach.
 

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Heh, thanks for the detailed info IndianJo! I suffer from an equally annoying set of ailments -- mostly that I'm cranky and impatient. I don't want to spend too much time doing maintenance, and certainly don't want to do a conversion (Sorry Mequite Hugger). I've looked at the BodaBoda, but will look again. I've not tried one with electric assist.

That's good info Dionigi! I had a roommate once who biked from Palo Alto to Santa Cruz every Saturday, and then back on Sunday...on a Fixie. The dude was nuts. Kinda awesome, but nuts. I have no intention of climbing any real hills.

The Rohloff is such a masterpiece of engineering, that I kind of want to own one just to say I do, like one might have a Jaeger Le Coultre Memovox watch. (It's a self-winding Automatic watch with an alarm from a hammer that taps the inside of the case, and they've made them for decades.) I've watched videos about the Rohloff, and I'm blown away.

I'm starting to think maybe the Evelo is a smart idea for a *first* bike, because it only takes 5 months to balance it out against the cost of a car lease, and if I love it, then maybe I go in full tilt with the R&M.
 
Mid drive electric bikes need a chain about every 2000 KM people are saying? And the 11 speed shimano cluster the lycra crowd are riding, that skinny chain needs replacing about every 1000 miles under human power.

Some people may be saying that, but I have a 10-speed mid-drive system with 2200 miles/3500 kilometers on the chain, and it is not showing any wear.
 
Have you given any consideration to the Argo Cargo conversion? It has a much lower cost of entry and could work well with a mid-mount or rear-hub-motored e-bike.

https://argobikes.com/products/argocargokit

It looks nice to have the option of detaching the box but the argo has an attachment piece on the bike that clamps on either side of the bottom bracket and cannot have anything projecting under it which might preclude using it with mid-drives, but a rear hub motor would be fine.
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It looks nice to have the option of detaching the box but the argo has an attachment piece on the bike that clamps on either side of the bottom bracket and cannot have anything projecting under it which might preclude using it with mid-drives, but a rear hub motor would be fine.
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Good point. It still looks like a neat and noncommittal way to get into a box bike.

To see how it works, check out this video - start at 1 minute.

 
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My car has gotten quite dusty since I got my ebike. Every commuting or errand mile on my ebike is one less on my car, and the wear and tear on an ebike is much cheaper than that on a car, not even considering the fuel savings. AND, it is great exercise. So, the justification to me is that my ebike (even though it was about 3,000 including tax) is environmentally friendlier and more economical than a car AND gives me more regular exercise than I have been getting in years AND is such a great stress-reliever in terms of the sheer enjoyment of riding my bike. I live in a place with crummy (wet and short day) winters, so likely will get heavy use from June-September, medium use in May & October, and lighter use the other six months of the year.

I vote for a cargo bike, considering your kid-related riding interests. Your 3 year old fits in the carrier, but what about a 9 year old? Kids grow very fast. A cargo bike will be great for both your commute AND for carting your kid around to stuff, as well as serving as a better car-substitute for grocery shopping and other errands where you need to haul stuff. I somewhat regret not getting a cargo bike. I did consider trading mine in and getting a cargo bike instead, but I'm not very strong and couldn't handle the weight of the cargobike loaded with a person as well as I would have hoped I could. I bet you are brawnier than me, and it would be no great trick for you!

We are keeping both cars, but with four ebikes in the family now, the two cars were precious little used all summer, for sure.

Happy shopping!
Good solid advice here. I would go with the load high speed with derailleur. It will be more nimble and quicker. I have a Nevo Nuvinci GH and an Homage Rohloff HS as well as a Cube with Bosch CX and shimano XT 11 speed. It's a wee bit frustrating to ride the Nuvinci/Vario after riding the other two. It's just enough less efficient to really notice. If they offer Load with Rohloff, that would be hands down the best, Shimano derailleur second, Vario third. The Vario is a joy to shift and is a nice clean set up with the belt but will be a bit disappointing withe the high speed, I think.
 
Really good feedback. Thanks!

I currently have an ooold Nuvinci on a Public Bike. No assist. I drag the Burley around. It’s fun! Now I know that I’ve learned bad habits, but I can’t tell you how many times I’m stopped at a light and then shift down to an easy gear to get going again. I seem to always forget to prepare as I’m coming to a stop. That’s why I’m leaning toward a Vario. And yes, I really want a Rohloff. Maybe I can talk them into experimenting with me. :)
 
Really good feedback. Thanks!

I currently have an ooold Nuvinci on a Public Bike. No assist. I drag the Burley around. It’s fun! Now I know that I’ve learned bad habits, but I can’t tell you how many times I’m stopped at a light and then shift down to an easy gear to get going again. I seem to always forget to prepare as I’m coming to a stop. That’s why I’m leaning toward a Vario. And yes, I really want a Rohloff. Maybe I can talk them into experimenting with me. :)
I've tried that. Riese & Muller is a very German company. They stick to the catalog without exceptions, in my experience. That said, their design, engineering and manufacturing is also very German.
 
I ride 3 miles to daycare, followed by another 9 to the office. Moderately hilly in the Denver Colorado burbs. Prior to that, I worked from home with a 7 mile RT (twice a day) slog to daycare in flat New Jersey, similar climate.

TLDR version: Get a midtail/longtail bike, or a single rider (short tail?) bike towing a Weehoo. Ditching a Burley/Chariot at daycare is a pain.

In Jersey, I loved the Burley Cub trailer. I rode an old hybrid bike. The Burley stayed attach for the daycare round trips. If I went to a store, I generally brought it in with me as a stroller/shopping cart. This worked for humid summer heat, rain, sleet and light snow. The commute included a half mile of bouncing through a ditch and farm field. The Burley is tops for weather protection. My daughter and I far prefer a longtail though, because communication to a trailer is pretty much impossible without stopping. She still prefers the Burley if it is very wet or cold, though.

I tried the same here, but locked up the Burley at daycare. This is a total pain in the butt. It takes 3-5 minutes to unhitch, remove burley wheels, and lock everything to a fence. If your daycare allows you to store the Burley inside a secure area, might not be so bad. Mine fairly said that they had no room, but I could lock to the outside perimeter fence along the sidewalk.

A rear rack seat works really well for a 3 year old. It still works well for my large 4 year old. On a normal bike, this does mean that you have no rear rack pannier space though. So, you would need a backpack or a front basket. My front basket attempt failed due to instability above 15mph, in retrospect I had some install issues.

My family has 2 dedicated kid carrying bike solutions. They are much faster total trip time, because I do not have to mess with the Burley. An option that I did not explore enough was using a regular bike towing a Burley Piccolo/Kazoo, or Weehoo trailer bike - those would lock up much faster than a Burley, because wheels could stay on. I would recommend the Weehoo for a 3 yr old, towed by whatever single rider bike your prefer.

One is a Bike Friday Family Tandem, with the rear stoker seat setup for my kiddo. This was viable starting at about age 3.5 for her, with some modification to rear seat, bars, and crank. I later electrified it to cope with the hills, but on flats I could easily hold 16mph unassisted with this rig, and it only weighed about 45lb before I messed with the electrics. Bike Friday also makes a Haul-A-Day cargo bike, which can be electrified. Its a cool option - lightweight, compact, low step frame. The tandem gets a lot of appreciation from folks who see my kiddo and I riding to school.

The second bike is an Edgerunner Swoop. This also started off pure mechanical, but got an electric kit. This bike was a little slower than the tandem, both unassisted. Due to weight, but also the air drag of the rear "kid cage" setup. Now that both the tandem and the Edgerunner are electric, I prefer the Edgerunner. However, I am able to park inside at work. We hesitate to leave it outside in a rack all workday, and we live in a decent area. As a kid and grocery hauling commuter, this thing is awesome. HIghly recommend an Xtracycle Edgerunner eSwoop. Get the Swoop frame, the step through is really nice to have. An eSwoop kitted out for kiddos would run about 5k.

IF you are below 5'10", the Yuba E-boda boda step through looks awesome. The newest model with the tire hugging rear rack. The stepover frame is less attractive - I am fairly young and limber and it sucks to throw a leg over the top tube with a kid in back. My kiddo got a foot to face several times when riding jumpseat on my hybrid.

The Tern GSD was not out yet when we went shopping. This bike is truly awesome. The latest release has nuvinci as an option, although it retains chaindrive and a derailleur style tensioner. If you are ALOT lighter than me, consider the Tern Vektron - but the 240 pound total payload including rider is a deal killer for me. For someone at or below 160 pounds, this would be a hella versatile rig.

Bucket bikes are really cool. But a regular longtail can be hard to park, a front bucket bike would be hell. You dont really need the weather cover in Palo Alto, and the cover options are one of the huge pluses of bucket bikes. A longtail is also a much easier transition from regular bike.

Consider a lower spec bike - theft is a problem that deters from using the bike for errands. It is multiplied for high value bikes. 7 miles in flatland is actually not bad for a standard, unassisted bike; which is alot less likely to get nabbed. I am jealous of your bike lanes, I was totally envious this summer when I saw the green painted lanes throughout Palo Alto.

Check your local laws regarding Class 1/Class II 20mph limit bikes vs Class III 28mph bikes. Around here, going to class III means no bike paths for you. Bike paths can be a huge time saver or stress reducer vs the street.
 
Re: tying up a trailer at preschool, one of the publicity photos from the Argo website shows someone disassembling and tying up just the box section to a bike rack, presumably if you carried the front wheel you could just put it on and ride away.
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Thanks NotTheBus for a really cool bit of insight and suggestions!

Here are some details I left out that will help you realize why I never considered some of your suggestions...

  • I’m 6’2”, 260 lbs. fitter than it sounds, but it’s a lot of human.
  • Our daycare has a place with card key access for locking up stuff. People put trailers, child seats, car sears... all sorts of stuff in there during the day.
  • The place where I hope to work has large bike lockers with cameras everywhere, but also lots of security guards and cameras in the parking lots. People are everywhere! I would probably park a normal sized bike in a locker, but if I had a long bike or bucket bike, I might just put it in a car parking space with that cafe lock, and a motion alarm. This is one of those tech companies that has free bikes everywhere for employees. I just don’t think the thieves will roll in there with a pickup truck and lift up my 70 lb bucket bike.
  • Almost everywhere else I’ll go will require I at least throw a chain around a pole, but my wife isn’t in on this bike adventure with me, so whenever we go together (movies, dinners out, etc.) we’ll be taking her car.
  • We have a large 2-car garage that will host any bike I get, with plenty of room and an automatic door. We’ve never dealt with any home theft. We have cameras visible everywhere, and wonderful retired nosy neighbors on both sides who interrogate the mailman if he’s not the usual dude.
  • We have an 18 month Hungarian Vizsla who runs along side the bike, but I’d love to train her to ride in a bucket for some trips.
  • We’ve gotten really good at delivery services and only go shopping at a store once or twice a month.
  • My older kids come home for holidays. I’m thinking of renting a car for those weeks, mostly so they can use it to go see their friends.
  • I don’t think I’m going to spend a lot of my commute anywhere close to 28 MPH, but I do want the option. I’m mostly leaning toward a Class 3 because speed is more important to me than hill climbing. One thing I look forward to understanding during some test rides is whether I want the torque for stop signs or the speed between them.

My current rig is a Public bike with Nuvinci and a Burley. No assist. My Apple Watch says I average 9 MPH with my daughter in tow, and about 11 with no Burley.

And less fact and more feeling, I have dreamed of a bikeable commute since I moved to the Bay Area 25 years ago. I’ve never been close enough to consider it. I’m so hopeful for this one! I was supposed to hear by Friday (yesterday). But no call yet. I have Schrodinger’s Job. I both have the job and didn’t get the job until I get the call.
 
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