Neeko DeVinchi
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Lol. Ask me that once I've made moreWhat's the MSRP?
2022 - Top 12 Bafang Ultra M620 Ebikes
- Thread starter Ebiker33
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Neeko DeVinchi
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Without getting into the nitty gritty between the two, essentially the UART protocol allows you to plug in a conventional programming cable to rewrite parameters on the controller.
The Canbus protocol does allow parameters to be configured. But must be done with the BESET tool. This tool is not easily obtainable and those who do have it are either,
A- developers/dealers who sell Bafang motors. Or
B- Private users who have paid waaay to much just to gain functionality similar to the UART protocol.
You are however correct @ruffruff. The Canbus protocol does 'in theory' improved communication and reduces delay in commands such as level assist changing, throttle activation, battery percentage readings etc. However 'as most will agree with me as I say this', this move to Canbus was done to prevent the end user from tinkering with the motor. Depending on your view, you could argue that Bafang is 'attempting' to become more coherent with global legislations which governs ebike usage (basically like trying to be like Bosch or Shimano). However, Bafang's reputation was greatly bolstered by the testimonials of developers who credited them for creating a system which was both plug & play friendly and programmable to serve the rider's needs rather than offering a limit as to the functionality of the motor characteristics (like Android vs IOS. Android is open source).
Granted, theirs more to it that what I've explained but hopefully my explanation helps ruffruff
The Canbus protocol does allow parameters to be configured. But must be done with the BESET tool. This tool is not easily obtainable and those who do have it are either,
A- developers/dealers who sell Bafang motors. Or
B- Private users who have paid waaay to much just to gain functionality similar to the UART protocol.
You are however correct @ruffruff. The Canbus protocol does 'in theory' improved communication and reduces delay in commands such as level assist changing, throttle activation, battery percentage readings etc. However 'as most will agree with me as I say this', this move to Canbus was done to prevent the end user from tinkering with the motor. Depending on your view, you could argue that Bafang is 'attempting' to become more coherent with global legislations which governs ebike usage (basically like trying to be like Bosch or Shimano). However, Bafang's reputation was greatly bolstered by the testimonials of developers who credited them for creating a system which was both plug & play friendly and programmable to serve the rider's needs rather than offering a limit as to the functionality of the motor characteristics (like Android vs IOS. Android is open source).
Granted, theirs more to it that what I've explained but hopefully my explanation helps ruffruff
AHicks
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- USA
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Without getting into the nitty gritty between the two, essentially the UART protocol allows you to plug in a conventional programming cable to rewrite parameters on the controller.
The Canbus protocol does allow parameters to be configured. But must be done with the BESET tool. This tool is not easily obtainable and those who do have it are either,
A- developers/dealers who sell Bafang motors. Or
B- Private users who have paid waaay to much just to gain functionality similar to the UART protocol.
You are however correct @ruffruff. The Canbus protocol does 'in theory' improved communication and reduces delay in commands such as level assist changing, throttle activation, battery percentage readings etc. However 'as most will agree with me as I say this', this move to Canbus was done to prevent the end user from tinkering with the motor. Depending on your view, you could argue that Bafang is 'attempting' to become more coherent with global legislations which governs ebike usage (basically like trying to be like Bosch or Shimano). However, Bafang's reputation was greatly bolstered by the testimonials of developers who credited them for creating a system which was both plug & play friendly and programmable to serve the rider's needs rather than offering a limit as to the functionality of the motor characteristics (like Android vs IOS. Android is open source).
Granted, theirs more to it that what I've explained but hopefully my explanation helps ruffruff
Sorry, all due respect, but I'm going to disagree here a bit, regarding who can currently modify a CANbus equipped Ultra controller. It's an easy answer, as NOBODY can program them! Not even the bike manf's can accomplish this, "beset" tool or no beset tool.
That's the difference between UART and CANbus. One is EASILY programmable, and the other IS NOT programmable (yet).
Originally, when the CANbus controller Ultra's were first anounced, we were told dealers would be able to program them on request. That turned out to be complete BS. The BIKE MANF's can't even program them....
Tech heads are currently working on a user interface (possibly similar to the one used on the BBSxx and Ultra motors) that will allow changes, but that's yet to be achieved (AFAIK), and we don't know when something like that will be available. Safe to assume something like the Beset tool will be required, though my bet is that's not going to slow many serious about programming....
ruffruff
Well-Known Member
So, it's not about the portocol it's because there are no tools to program it?
I mess around with Arduinos a lot and I can interface with CANbus pretty easily.
www.longan-labs.cc
I mess around with Arduinos a lot and I can interface with CANbus pretty easily.
CAN Bus Shield for Arduino
CAN Bus Shield adopts MCP2515 CAN Bus controller with SPI interface and MCP2551 CAN transceiver to give your Arduino CAN Bus capability.
www.longan-labs.cc
The tool is called BESST, which was originally made available only to manufacturers or assemblers, but there are apparently several levels of access.
The same tool is/has been also required to do firmware upgrades for the M600 and now CANBUS Ultras. I've yet to see a 'fully unlocked' BESST screenshot, so am assuming that most or all of the UART motor settings are available.
There are huge threads on this on endless-sphere, with discussion on using CANBUS tools to try to decode some of the commands. Last I checked the only thing able to be accomplished was to set the max speed and wheel diameter. Start reading somewhere around here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=100777&start=410
Now in a sane world, Bafang 'could' make their 'Bafang Go' app actually usable, and allowing reasonable user settings to suit their needs. I'm not holding my breath on that one - seems more likely someone will do a full replacement controller, although Bafang could also open a new 'permission level' in BESST (it wants an initial online login - there are some bypasses, but not to AFAIK unlock full permissions/access) which 'could' in theory act like the UART configuration tool, and keep selling them but now open to consumers for $150 or something.
But yeah, who knows? Shimano and others are opening up tune-ability while Bafang who had a reasonable reputation for allowing configuration is now off and seemingly running in the opposite/'wrong' direction..
The same tool is/has been also required to do firmware upgrades for the M600 and now CANBUS Ultras. I've yet to see a 'fully unlocked' BESST screenshot, so am assuming that most or all of the UART motor settings are available.
There are huge threads on this on endless-sphere, with discussion on using CANBUS tools to try to decode some of the commands. Last I checked the only thing able to be accomplished was to set the max speed and wheel diameter. Start reading somewhere around here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=100777&start=410
Now in a sane world, Bafang 'could' make their 'Bafang Go' app actually usable, and allowing reasonable user settings to suit their needs. I'm not holding my breath on that one - seems more likely someone will do a full replacement controller, although Bafang could also open a new 'permission level' in BESST (it wants an initial online login - there are some bypasses, but not to AFAIK unlock full permissions/access) which 'could' in theory act like the UART configuration tool, and keep selling them but now open to consumers for $150 or something.
But yeah, who knows? Shimano and others are opening up tune-ability while Bafang who had a reasonable reputation for allowing configuration is now off and seemingly running in the opposite/'wrong' direction..
ProphetZarquon
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- USA
Well, touchscreen & app support, are largely independent of the motor+controller itself: The display & controls use a predefined set of signals for all of the controller's supported functions.This one looks kinda interesting. CF frame with budget components, an odd pairing. Elektrek says Bafang Ultra motor, but has a touchscreen display and appp support so perhaps a next gen version of the Ultra or M600? Battery capacity is a bit weak for Bafang Ultra at 700 Wh unless, again, it's a more efficient next gen motor.
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Theoretically any device capable of sending a few very basic signals, can command such a motor controller. Indeed, aside from one or two features remaining to implement, the Eggrider display system is a good example of this.
Indeed...
I am extremely curious to see a side-by-side contrasting teardown of the UART & CANBus versions of the Ultra, as I'm a bit unclear what differences the motor core itself might actually have!
By everything I've seen so far, the controller will communicate exclusively by either UART or CANBus signaling, but aside from a rotation sensor, the motor itself is essentially a dumb lump of metal that just gets power, so... what's to be incompatible? I assume a different sensor housing? Perhaps some different shape to the inside of the case where the controller mounts?
I want to see exactly what (if anything???) makes a CANBus m620 motor incompatible with a UART m620 controller, & vice versa!?
ProphetZarquon
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- USA
Regarding the BESST tool:
Where does Bafang get their controllers? (ASI?)
Extreme cynicism incoming!
I have seen no evidence to date that Bafang has a clue about the controllers in their motors: Their "default config" is essentially not configured (dangerously so!), & some of the controller details they've provided to bike makers over the years have been... let's call it "vague". It's almost as if they've been building motor cores & buying controllers to spec, without really doing any of the controller design work?
I could begin to suspect dominance games between Bafang & their supplier of controllers: How does the CANBus strategy benefit Bafang? Is their best selling point (programmability) being held for ransom by the controller designers? The BESST tool reminds me of the horrendous software drivers that used to come with otherwise high grade commercial Antec sound card hardware.
Can the new locked-down CANBus motors at least get their torque sensor calibrated??? Because it seems Bafang hasn't been calibrating the UART models...
(Did I see footage of a bike maker building them with a different (or no) torque sensor?)
Until there's some hard evidence, I don't believe anyone outside the controller designers, actually has any fine-grained access at all, to the type of settings we used to see in the UART controllers.
If Bafang has any control over their motor controllers at all, let's see them produce a well tuned configuration! ;D
Where does Bafang get their controllers? (ASI?)
Extreme cynicism incoming!
I have seen no evidence to date that Bafang has a clue about the controllers in their motors: Their "default config" is essentially not configured (dangerously so!), & some of the controller details they've provided to bike makers over the years have been... let's call it "vague". It's almost as if they've been building motor cores & buying controllers to spec, without really doing any of the controller design work?
I could begin to suspect dominance games between Bafang & their supplier of controllers: How does the CANBus strategy benefit Bafang? Is their best selling point (programmability) being held for ransom by the controller designers? The BESST tool reminds me of the horrendous software drivers that used to come with otherwise high grade commercial Antec sound card hardware.
Can the new locked-down CANBus motors at least get their torque sensor calibrated??? Because it seems Bafang hasn't been calibrating the UART models...
(Did I see footage of a bike maker building them with a different (or no) torque sensor?)
Until there's some hard evidence, I don't believe anyone outside the controller designers, actually has any fine-grained access at all, to the type of settings we used to see in the UART controllers.
If Bafang has any control over their motor controllers at all, let's see them produce a well tuned configuration! ;D
AHicks
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
As far as the tuned configuration, they wouldn't even have to design it and run prototypes to proof it. The friggen "Smooth" program is now fairly well proven. It WORKS! All Bafang has to do is copy or use that as a starting point. This is a complete no brainer!!!! It's like there's a complete/total break down in communications somewhere preventing it. Even if they didn't want to copy the Smooth tune, any half baked engineer/designer should be able to look at it and see where the changes in thinking occurred to make that design so successful (reverse engineering). Using that info, they should easily be able to come up with something that they could put their own name on without creating any legal waves....
I'd like to know about any internal differences in the Ultra's as well. I suspect they've changed the wiring harness connections, agree the motors and gears should carry over 100%, but clearly that's just a guess.
Touchscreen to do what we need to do, is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, but if that's what it takes and they make that available at a reasonable price, I'm on board with that plan. Pretty sure others would be as well, as long as we're able to make the changes necessary to civilize the CANbus Ultra's....
Neeko DeVinchi
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- United Kingdom
An even better idea, would be for Bafang to create a bluetooth module for their motors.
Oddly enough, third party developers have done this already (with some having great success from the Germans).
This 'in my opinion', would eliminate the need to continue with either the UART or CANbus protocol.
Oh well, one can dream!!!!
Oddly enough, third party developers have done this already (with some having great success from the Germans
).This 'in my opinion', would eliminate the need to continue with either the UART or CANbus protocol.
Oh well, one can dream!!!!
They already have bluetooth. It's just not really used - see the M600, for example. I believe they've got the antenna on other motors, but to date it's only the horrid Bafang Go app doing anything with it.An even better idea, would be for Bafang to create a bluetooth module for their motors.
Oddly enough, third party developers have done this already (with some having great success from the Germans
This 'in my opinion', would eliminate the need to continue with either the UART or CANbus protocol.
Oh well, one can dream!!!!
Totally agreed - 'borrow' smooth tune as default and at least, well - suck less out of the box for CANBUS Ultras.
Touchscreen = meh, at least for a riding interface. When you're actually using controls when riding, e.g. adjusting power levels, the last thing I want is to be fumbling to 'touch the right spot' with no tactile means of locating the right spot. As it is their power/PAS controls are pretty amateurish - they don't really fit well on bars in general and could/should be streamlined to not break the second someone has a minor off.
Look at how the DP C240 controls are stuck hanging down below the bars if you position access to +/- sanely. Compare this to e.g. a simple, thin, round control like Grin makes - but no, instead, let's make a touch control that has you looking at bars and not on the road or trail for simple operations... meh.
Grin control:
Which one do you think has a higher chance of surviving even a minor drop of the bike? I'm probably going to look into wiring one of the Grin units if I can find one, because none of the Bafang display/control combos are really anything I want. Ironically the DP C240 B/W is probably the closest as it mostly gets out the way, but the bar control sucks, and the screen could be slightly bigger and let you display voltage. Instead, they do crap like this:
K, go ride off-road or just near traffic at 15MPH - sure hope you can find the +/- quickly without looking at it.
From a usability standpoint and just basic human interaction principles, let alone specific to cycling - their displays and controls are a nightmare. At least copy <something good> instead of doing 'innovative products' by people that likely don't even cycle.
Apologies for the rant, but man- just copy something decent already Bafang...
Neeko DeVinchi
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Then buy a display supporting Bluetooth if you're using a EU-only motor without an antenna. Considering the display cable is the same as what's used for the 'programming' (configuration) cable etc..same net result, at least possible one... Then you too can be disappointed by the Bafang Go app - it doesn't work for many users, and doesn't solve the configuration problem the USB cable provides on UART motors regardless. It could, if Bafang were to pay someone with a clue, but my impression is it's more broken than useful at the moment. They could do quite a bit more but hey, they can't manage to even make out of box firmware not suck, so expecting a competent mobile app that supports ALL of their motors, or at least those with BT or via displays with BT - I wouldn't bet on it any time soon unless the invest in paying someone not-Bafang to set strategy AND execution of it..
Ravi Kempaiah
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- Halifax
It is quite difficult to implement robust communication between hardware, software, and mobile app without CAN communication.
CANbus adds a layer of redundancy and adaptability that is difficult to achieve with UART. To offer programmability using an App, smarter control, other functionality like navigation, GPS, etc certainly needs CAN.
Bafang realizes that and they are slowly moving towards it but it all comes down to how well they can execute it.
CANbus adds a layer of redundancy and adaptability that is difficult to achieve with UART. To offer programmability using an App, smarter control, other functionality like navigation, GPS, etc certainly needs CAN.
Bafang realizes that and they are slowly moving towards it but it all comes down to how well they can execute it.
tomjasz
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- Minnesnowta
Bafang has never liked end user programming. I guess they want to be like the brand name mids and deny the right to repair or program. Bafang has NEVER rel
they can, they just don’t. The parent company is HUGE!Then buy a display supporting Bluetooth if you're using a EU-only motor without an antenna. Considering the display cable is the same as what's used for the 'programming' (configuration) cable etc..same net result, at least possible one... Then you too can be disappointed by the Bafang Go app - it doesn't work for many users, and doesn't solve the configuration problem the USB cable provides on UART motors regardless. It could, if Bafang were to pay someone with a clue, but my impression is it's more broken than useful at the moment. They could do quite a bit more but hey, they can't manage to even make out of box firmware not suck, so expecting a competent mobile app that supports ALL of their motors, or at least those with BT or via displays with BT - I wouldn't bet on it any time soon unless the invest in paying someone not-Bafang to set strategy AND execution of it..
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