The likely incoming 750w limit

[DDBB]

My ebike is a class 3 and 1,000 watt bafang ultra motor. It's the Rize RX.. It LOOKS like a normal bike and despite the "illegal" power and the throttle, no-one has ever given me a hard time. I typically ride at less than 20mph but can go 35 if I feel like it which I really never do. To me, 35mph on a bicycle is dangerous territory. I ride my motorcycle when I feel the need for speed. I ride MUPS where there are regs here but it doesn't seem that there's any enforcement whatsoever

 

[juggernaut1]

Speed limits would seem to make the most sense. Going over 28 mph on level ground? Write the rider a ticket for unregistered motor vehicle. But then you can go a lot faster than 28 mph downhill even on an unpowered bike, I can get up to 35 mph on a not too steep hill near my house, even though the pedal assist cuts out at 28. Perhaps the solution is to restrict ebikes to age 16+.

I'm still trying to figure out the NY State laws.

In Western Australia where I live, we only are legally allowed to ride class one ebikes. Approved helmets are compulsory and e-bikes can only be ridden by the 16+ age group. In my neck of the woods I can’t say I’ve observed under age e-bike riders. They’re usually riding two up on electric scooters without helmets.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Here's the original article that started all the chatter about changing laws. From the German emtb magazine that organised this industry shindig with most of the major stakeholders represented. It looks like DJI put the cat among the pigeons and Bosch et all are concerned at the EU/governments getting more restrictive so they were debating about volunteering industry max limits themselves. Or it could be read that they are scared stiff by DJI moving into this motor space, literally a colossus targeting their tiny world out of the blue. I'll be honest it's a pretty technical and pretty boring discussion so I did skim read!

Bosch today, also announced a firmware increase to 100nm & 750 peak power from 85nm & I think 600 pp on the cx motor.

Specialized/Brose new powerful motor few weeks ago.

The arms race is full on with a backdrop of increased scrutiny.

E-MOUNTAINBIKE Think Tank 2025 – Are we dumb?

Performance craze or progress? The E-MOUNTAINBIKE Think Tank 2025 is shaping the future of the e-mountainbike.

ebike-mtb.com

When people complain about e-bikes being ridden higher then the 15.5mph/25km limit, given any decent club road racer will average 20mph unassisted these complaints seem a bit mad to me.

All EVs and most cars can be restricted to a given speed limit these days. So when will cars get restricted to the legal speed limit in a similar way to e-bikes?

20mph zones by schools for instance? Why not restrict cars for safety? Why are lightweight and slow (in comparison to any car) bikes penalised but cars are not. Ohhh scary bikes.

On average, each year in U.K. 4 pedestrians are killed in collisions with bikes. FOUR.
400 pedestrians killed by cars each year.
140 cyclists killed by cars each year.
1,766 people killed in accidents involving cars last year.

But we better restrict all those dangerous cyclists.

 

[kevinmccune]

The problem with watt limits, they regulate climbing ability instead of speed. IE if I am going to carry groceries to my summer camp, I now need a $20000 car instead of a 1000 w bicycle. Or a **** noisy gas scooter. No exercise possible with either of those. The 2018 1300 w ebikeling hub motor was great until it wore out, the 1000 w MAC12t was great until it wore out. No more of those available. I've burned 3 motors under 1000 w, including a 750 w one. Or I could buy a mid-drive, limit my climbing speed up 12% to 1 mph with a 52 rear sprocket, and buy a new display every time it rains. The controllers on ebay run without a display, only a "door" switch.

what would 2 40 NM 250 watt hub motors do?these things are light and seemingly reliable,btw cant you hack a scooter motor to that ride something with kick ass power? some of the elegant things you mention have come and gone due to abuse by others,there is probably a combo that would prove satisfactory for you,I was amazed at the torque of an unbridled 500 watt motor on a heavy trike on pa 1 it would easily carry me up my steep driveway,even a pretty large tester was surprised at the guts of that setup,I digress heat buildup might be a real limit for you( paint hub flat black and use stator ad and have enough amps to turn the darn thing,undervolted motors die pretty quick.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I think there is a big misunderstanding here. The U.S. e-bikes are allowed to have 750 W motors. The matter raised by Chargeride is related to Europe. To make a long story short: while the EU law allows 250 W continuous power, it says nothing on the peak power. As I can understand, the British activists want to introduce a clear law allowing up to 750 W peak power. I don't think it is 750 W continuous power.

Again, high motor power is only important to e-MTBers, as the Euro law limits the e-bike speed to 25 km/h (and it is 15.5 mph in the UK). More power in a legal e-bike does not mean more speed.

The EU and Britain's issue is the low speed limit for e-bikes, and that is what should be talked upon by the activists. Let me illustrate what the existing motor power can do:
I was to overtake a rider of a Chinese throttle e-bike today. My full power e-bike is limited to 45 km/h. I smoked the throttle rider at 42 km/h, inputting 209 W with my legs and getting the motor response at 520 W. So the combined power was 729 W. If the e-bike were restricted, I couldn't ride faster than 25 km/h despite how much power the motor would have.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I think there is a big misunderstanding here. The U.S. e-bikes are allowed to have 750 W motors. The matter raised by Chargeride is related to Europe. To make a long story short: while the EU law allows 250 W continuous power, it says nothing on the peak power. As I can understand, the British activists want to introduce a clear law allowing up to 750 W peak power. I don't think it is 750 W continuous power.

Again, high motor power is only important to e-MTBers, as the Euro law limits the e-bike speed to 25 km/h (and it is 15.5 mph in the UK). More power in a legal e-bike does not mean more speed.

The EU and Britain's issue is the low speed limit for e-bikes, and that is what should be talked upon by the activists. Let me illustrate what the existing motor power can do:
I was to overtake a rider of a Chinese throttle e-bike today. My full power e-bike is limited to 45 km/h. I smoked the throttle rider at 42 km/h, inputting 209 W with my legs and getting the motor response at 520 W. So the combined power was 729 W. If the e-bike were restricted, I couldn't ride faster than 25 km/h despite how much power the motor would have.

Thanks for clarifying. Now the OP makes sense. Here in California, our hard 750W max for legal ebikes arrived on January 1, 2025.

The sky has not fallen. The only visible change in my beach town: City cops are now serious about getting illegal Surrons, Super73s, and the like off the roads, MUPs, and bikeways. Not sure they needed the new law to do that, but hey, better late than never!

Saw a 14-something on a Surron getting a ticket a few weeks ago. Guessing the bike was being confiscated from the utter dejection on his face. Imagine how sorry I felt for the parents.
;^}

 

[Chargeride]

I did state in the first sentence that it will be an issue because the States are looking to lineup with European standards

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I did state in the first sentence that it will be an issue because the States are looking to lineup with European standards

The U.S. have had the Federal standard for many years, only the States and smaller jurisdictions do as they please...

 

[Rás Cnoic]

In case any of you missed it or I didn't explain properly- it was late last night, the article I attached above by E-Mountain Magazine, a German based publication, had a conference with most of the CEO's of the major motor and ebike brands to discuss looming regulations and trash out a voluntary limit for motors. This 'thinktank' points were then picked up by the usual suspects EMBN & Rob Rides etc all discussing this topic. Here's what they said:

Why will e-bike motors soon be capped to 750 watts? What can we learn from Formula 1 for the bike world? We invited some of the most influential CEOs and leaders of the bike industry to avoid repeating the mistakes from three years ago, which led us into the current crisis.
Here's who attended:

E-MOUNTAINBIKE Think Tank – key brands from around the globe​

Criticizing is easy, but improving things is a real art. That’s why we hosted another international E-MOUNTAINBIKE Think Tank, bringing together over 60 representatives from more than 30 brands worldwide – including CEOs from Bosch, Specialized, FOCUS, P2/Porsche, SRAM, Mahle, Pivot Europe, Yeti Europe, as well as many product managers, engineers, and marketing experts – to the Staud Studios in Leonberg.
Here’s an overview of the manufacturers and stakeholders involved:
Accell Group (Haibike, Lapierre, Ghost), AMFLOW, BH, Bosch, Brose, Cannondale, Canyon, Centurion, Comodule, Compositence, DJI, DT Swiss, FOCUS, Giant, Mahle, Merida, MOUNTAINBIKE Magazin, Pivot, Porsche, Propain, Rocky Mountain, Scott, SEG, Shimano/Paul Lange, Specialized, SRAM, Supertrail, Trek, UCI, Unno, Velotech, Whyte, Yeti, YT, ZF
Here's the link again. It's a heavy, techy, old read! But it does show that the industry is changing fast and there is a lot of concern over the blurring of bicycle and motorbike if motors continue to increase in size and the probable backlash of legislation which could cripple the industry as it stands.

E-MOUNTAINBIKE Think Tank 2025 – Are we dumb?

Performance craze or progress? The E-MOUNTAINBIKE Think Tank 2025 is shaping the future of the e-mountainbike.

ebike-mtb.com

 

[kevinmccune]

Here's the original article that started all the chatter about changing laws. From the German emtb magazine that organised this industry shindig with most of the major stakeholders represented. It looks like DJI put the cat among the pigeons and Bosch et all are concerned at the EU/governments getting more restrictive so they were debating about volunteering industry max limits themselves. Or it could be read that they are scared stiff by DJI moving into this motor space, literally a colossus targeting their tiny world out of the blue. I'll be honest it's a pretty technical and pretty boring discussion so I did skim read!

Bosch today, also announced a firmware increase to 100nm & 750 peak power from 85nm & I think 600 pp on the cx motor.

Specialized/Brose new powerful motor few weeks ago.

The arms race is full on with a backdrop of increased scrutiny.

E-MOUNTAINBIKE Think Tank 2025 – Are we dumb?

Performance craze or progress? The E-MOUNTAINBIKE Think Tank 2025 is shaping the future of the e-mountainbike.

ebike-mtb.com

When people complain about e-bikes being ridden higher then the 15.5mph/25km limit, given any decent club road racer will average 20mph unassisted these complaints seem a bit mad to me.

All EVs and most cars can be restricted to a given speed limit these days. So when will cars get restricted to the legal speed limit in a similar way to e-bikes?

20mph zones by schools for instance? Why not restrict cars for safety? Why are lightweight and slow (in comparison to any car) bikes penalised but cars are not. Ohhh scary bikes.

On average, each year in U.K. 4 pedestrians are killed in collisions with bikes. FOUR.
400 pedestrians killed by cars each year.
140 cyclists killed by cars each year.

Thanks for clarifying. Now the OP makes sense. Here in California, our hard 750W max for legal ebikes arrived on January 1, 2025.

The sky has not fallen. The only visible change in my beach town: City cops are now serious about getting illegal Surrons, Super73s, and the like off the roads, MUPs, and bikeways. Not sure they needed the new law to do that, but hey, better late than never!

Saw a 14-something on a Surron getting a ticket a few weeks ago. Guessing the bike was being confiscated from the utter dejection on his face. Imagine how sorry I felt for the parents.
;^}

we generally never had that trouble as teenagers,cousins had bicycles and even a minibike,I finally traded a set of weights for a western flyer bike( my bike for awhile did more more good then the stupid weights,finally twisted the crank off doubling a brother up a hill) kids today are spoiled for the most part- one pearl of wisdom I can relate"kids get away from home as quickly as possible" heck,join the armed forces if necessary,do not rely on college to get you going,join the world! I stayed at home too long helping out,anybody that had anything were I reside left and came back at retirement or was born into a privileged circumstance,there was basically nothing here,a distant paper mill and a resort famous for its warm stinky water other than some struggling semi-sustenance farms,that was it(Appalachia redux!) unlike nearby"west by gosh stole from Virginia) we had no coal( farming around here is basically an expensive often profitless hobby) The "Mick" invasion persisted a few years till the govt stole the ridge tops or the people basically starved out,now its a good place to live if you are wealthy forget about much of the Mtn,through"while and guile" and plain govt theft 2/3 s of the land is national forest( lately yolked with the "nature conservancy" and wealthy elderly couples buying up most of the remaining "largish tracts" forbidding the commoners from even setting foot on it( sounds a little like an island we know,right?)" you will own nothing and be happy"

 

[Gionnirocket]

The U.S. have had the Federal standard for many years, only the States and smaller jurisdictions do as they please...

As it should be. No reason to enforce a law that's intent is not being violated. In my area arrogant road bike riders pose a much greater threat riding at high speed and weaving traffic on the MUP more than ebikes... which I can tell you are few and often riden by older people looking to ride longer in this hilly region.

I do the same personally as I own rental property and my lease is pretty strict and thorough. But I often don't enforce many aspects of it because my tenants are responsible and respectful. One example is the lease states use of the outdoor space is not included in the agreement and tenants do not have access. But i often see them outside in the yard and they treating it properly so I just say hello and discuss some football.

Enforcement of behavior is the reasonable answer as I love driving my auto capable of >150mph and my 1000w throttle equipped ebike.

YRestrictionsMV

 

[stompandgo]

Normally, I could care less what California wants to do with their laws. When it comes to vehicles, though, there are a dozen or so deep blue states that have adopted CA automobile standards for political reasons. Massachusetts is one of them. With the state and local government that we have here, it will only be a matter of time before MA adopts the CA e-bike standards, and they will keep up with them from that point forward. My Tesoro will most likely not be my last e-bike. It's not an issue now, but it could be down the road.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

….but really, who follows the law? I see people turn against a red. Talking on their phone while driving. Yes, they are on speakerphone and holding the phone at their face. People blocking intersections and driveways. God forbid there is a 4way stop. No one knows how those work. What?!? “A pedestrian crossing the street!?” WTF do you do? It is a literal battlefield out there. There are some nice drivers, but mostly not.

 

[chunk]

In my neighborhood there's a fair number of kids that blast down the streets on all manner of motorized 2 wheelers, most electric but some ICE M/C's. Some look to be as young as six or seven and they don't seem to have the understanding of how dangerous it can be. They just look straight ahead and go as fast as they can. Some are on electric motorcycles and some ride with no helmets, a tragedy looms I'm afraid.

 

[Gionnirocket]

In my neighborhood there's a fair number of kids that blast down the streets on all manner of motorized 2 wheelers, most electric but some ICE M/C's. Some look to be as young as six or seven and they don't seem to have the understanding of how dangerous it can be. They just look straight ahead and go as fast as they can. Some are on electric motorcycles and some ride with no helmets, a tragedy looms I'm afraid.

It's called Natural Selection

 

[Gionnirocket]

Normally, I could care less what California wants to do with their laws. When it comes to vehicles, though, there are a dozen or so deep blue states that have adopted CA automobile standards for political reasons. Massachusetts is one of them. With the state and local government that we have here, it will only be a matter of time before MA adopts the CA e-bike standards, and they will keep up with them from that point forward. My Tesoro will most likely not be my last e-bike. It's not an issue now, but it could be down the road.

Yes it's definitely political as deep blue appreciates a clean as possible environment.
Maybe some deep red states can figure out how to have a coal fired vehicle. That'll be a win - win for the both consumer and industry!

 

[indianajo]

Back to basics: Don't be a douche rider and nobody will care what you are riding.

But I can't buy a 1000 w geared hub motor any more. Nobody will import them since most states outlawed them. I tried to buy 8 of them from Cutler Mac in ***** in February, but my computer is not fast enough to suit Alibaba. While I was rebooting after lockup alibaba timed out every time. I'm going to be begging rides from the wife to summer property which does nothing for my heart health. 4/04/25 a surgeon examined my heart arteries for blockage, count was zero at age 74. I don't need a stent, I need a 1000 w geared hub motor to keep time out to camp < 6 hours on a bicycle. My hips start hurting at 4 hours. 8 different saddles did not help.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

But I can't buy a 1000 w geared hub motor any more. Nobody will import them since most states outlawed them. I tried to buy 8 of them from Cutler Mac in ***** in February, but my computer is not fast enough to suit Alibaba. While I was rebooting after lockup alibaba timed out every time. I'm going to be begging rides from the wife to summer property which does nothing for my heart health. 4/04/25 a surgeon examined my heart arteries for blockage, count was zero at age 74. I don't need a stent, I need a 1000 w geared hub motor to keep time out to camp < 6 hours on a bicycle. My hips start hurting at 4 hours. 8 different saddles did not help.

Take a trip to Canada and buy from Grin? Even make it in to a vacation.

 

[Roamers]

But I can't buy a 1000 w geared hub motor any more. Nobody will import them since most states outlawed them. I tried to buy 8 of them from Cutler Mac in ***** in February, but my computer is not fast enough to suit Alibaba. While I was rebooting after lockup alibaba timed out every time. I'm going to be begging rides from the wife to summer property which does nothing for my heart health. 4/04/25 a surgeon examined my heart arteries for blockage, count was zero at age 74. I don't need a stent, I need a 1000 w geared hub motor to keep time out to camp < 6 hours on a bicycle. My hips start hurting at 4 hours. 8 different saddles did not help.

Life is full of choices; what you want is periodically not one of them.

We are fortunate (at 70) our bikes still keep our knees happy.

 

[DDBB]

This all could end up being moot when the tariffs hit. Not sure the buying public will go for double the price of what ebikes are selling for now