Direct drive + Pinion gearbox + Gates drive system = Lowest maintenance powerful E-bike

[Ravi Kempaiah]

It needs a throttle, a big battery, 2.8" wide tires, and some suspension.

Here is a test rig I and my engineering buddy in Taiwan came up with. He was one of the engineers who worked for Bosch Asia, where they sell thousands of hub motors for their scooter market.
I do think Pinion drive + Gates + 750w hub motor with torque sensor + 1Kwhr battery would be a phenomenal commuter. But, it can get upwards of 65lbs. So, we have to find a balance.
Currently, we are testing different controllers and torque sensors. The motor is not Neo Drive but I hope to test that soon. All of these projects take a lot of time to get the smallest details right and of course of a LOT of capital. There has to be a balance of features and price. Features like speed motor, torque sensor, high performance controller + high-quality frame etc are quite important.

 

[Explorer-1]

Here is a test rig I and my engineering buddy in Taiwan came up with.
........

What is the max torque rating of your motor, at what RPM?
Any reason a geared hub could not be used?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

What is the max torque rating of your motor, at what RPM?
Any reason a geared hub could not be used?

Max torque running on a 48V battery at 60 rpm = 50 Nm ( if you have tried Stromer ST5 with 48Nm of rated torque, you would know it has way more pulling power than most mid-drives)

Any motor can be used but gearless direct drive is picked because of reliability, silent operation and excellent supplier. The unique design is quick release for the motor, no threaded bolts.

If the goal is to create very low maintenance bike then direct drive is a natural choice. They are very long lasting (every electric car uses direct drive coupled to a simple 1/2 speed transmission for this reason)

 

[E-Wheels]

I do think Pinion drive + Gates + 750w hub motor with torque sensor + 1Kwhr battery would be a phenomenal commuter.

BINGO!

What is your dream Ebike?

Post your one dream Ebike you would love to own one day

electricbikereview.com

When does it go into production

 

[Deacon Blues]

Ravi, that would make an awesome commuter/pleasure riding ebike, but as you mentioned, 65 pounds is heavy. Is the frame made of steel?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

BINGO!

What is your dream Ebike?

Post your one dream Ebike you would love to own one day

electricbikereview.com

When does it go into production

Ravi, that would make an awesome commuter/pleasure riding ebike, but as you mentioned, 65 pounds is heavy. Is the frame made of steel?

@E-Wheels , and @Deacon Blues ,

Thank you guys. Really appreciate your feedback and support. Instead of muddying threads all over, I will be requesting the mods to open a brand specific forum and I would love to get your feedback on the designs.
@Johnny has been very helpful.

I fully agree with you this kind of configuration is perhaps the lowest maintenance of all setups. I am stickler for perfection and I believe many of you just the same way.
Instead of taking a loan or crowd funding, I am using significant amount of savings from my family to get this company off the ground and we have the backing of few Tesla investors. Also, world's top battery scientist willing to be part of the team as an chief advisor. So we are in it for the long haul.
I will request you guys to provide critical feedback when I open the brand-specific thread in a week or so.

 

[scout592]

@FlatSix911

A 750W geared hub motor like the Dapu or even some Bafang hub motors will last a long time and provide excellent acceleration.
They are better suited for commuting on flat or rolling hills kind of terrain than a mid-drive. The trick is to pair that hub motor with a nice torque sensor. That is exactly what Juiced did with their CCX and there are people here who commute 50 miles everyday on that thing. No other mid-drive without Rohloff would be able to handle that kind of distance with similar maintenance input.

The Evelo Auora Limited seems to have a lot of the items you mention. Does that model come close to what is being mentioned and at a much lower price than Rohloff equipped bikes? I just started reading about them and contacting some owners whom seem quite satisfied.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Does that model come close to what is being mentioned and at a much lower price than Rohloff equipped bikes?

You can read more about it here: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/aurora-limited-edition-mid-drive-review.30151/

 

[Explorer-1]

Are you looking at eventually using the Z2O RS motor? Are you going to have a throttle?

Since Pinion in NA is operated by Gates currently, making them the official Distributor, I presume you are working with them?

 

[Explorer-1]

I still see a Pinion (or similar) transmission and a geared hub drive as a lower cost setup that would be great for the average commuter which probably has a commute of less than 20 miles. If the geared hub fails the entire wheel can be replaced pretty econimically in most cases on lower cost bikes.

e-bikes are just too expensive to get the adoption needed to really make an environmental impact. Not that I would not pay 5K+ right now for the e-bike perfect for me, but it does not yet seem to exist, and I'm not willing to spend that every couple of years as it seems pointless.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Are you looking at eventually using the Z2O RS motor?

Z20RS motor has been around for sometime. There is a 40 page long thread here: https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/alber-2018-neodrives-antrieb-z20.52623/

I read every single post on that.
Based on that, I decided to test this system for 4000 miles before I can have full confidence in offering it. You can go through that thread and several others and you will realize the complexity involved.

I will also meet those folks (Alber Neodrive) in person when I meet with Rohloff folks and then make a decision.

Grace Urbanic also uses Pinion and a direct drive and I believe it has some sort of walk assist.

GRACE URBANIC - Grace Bikes

Mit dem Grace Urban beginnt eine elektrisierend vielseitige Ära des Unterwegsseins in der Stadt. Hier treffen modernste Technik und Alltagstauglichkeit in ihrer schönsten Form aufeinander – schnell, stilsicher und nachhaltig.

www.grace-bikes.com

Are you going to have a throttle?

Yes. This is why it is important to have a controller of our own that will handle 30A without any problem.
The controller supplied by Alber Neodrive doesn't support throttle function.

e-bikes are just too expensive to get the adoption needed to really make an environmental impact.

That need not be the case at all. I am acutely aware of the cost effect on ebike adoption.
If we ever offer this model, it won't be priced more than $3999 including high-end stuff M99 Pro lights, MT5e brakes and 800 whr battery.
Perhaps, we can't do fully integrated batteries because the tooling cost for a new case and frame design will cost upwards of $150,000.

This is one reason most companies use ready made designs by Reention - FLX, Luna, M2S, Voltbikes, etc..... every single one of them use reention case and frame that is designed around that configuration.

If we do all the homework and have the necessary support for customers - I would say at least 10 yr frame warranty and parts availability then customers would trust the company.

 

[pennybags]

T his is one reason most companies use ready made designs by Reention - FLX, Luna, M2S, Voltbikes, etc..... every single one of them use reention case and frame that is designed around that configuration.

You are embarking on a great journey. This is exciting. My recommendation would be to not focus on the price first. Get the product right. A lot is riding on getting something great to the market.

There’s a lot of advantages using a common design. Companies can evolve but having the same design made by others guarantees crucial parts. I wouldn’t look further than what Bosch has done - all Bosch downtubes look very similar. They all use the same slots. Your drawings That you posted also look the same as everyone else. There’s good reason to use common stuff . Efficiency, adoption, speed to market, long term support.

In fact look at stromer - they do their own thing but parts are expensive and hard to find. I believe they are still selling 2016 batteries for $1k


Another question - for everyone else here - how important is a 10yr frame warranty? My rad power bike was done in 2, the Bosch trek was ready to be disposed off in 3 years. Technology changes so much so quickly that I can’t imagine keeping a 2-3k bike for 10 years.

Thoughts?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

@pennybags .
Thanks for your comments.
Let me share some thoughts and perhaps this could lead to a useful discussion.

There’s good reason to use common stuff . Efficiency, adoption, speed to market, long term support.

You are absolutely right in this.

how important is a 10yr frame warranty?

There are several people here who have been riding their E-bike for over 5 years. @J.R. is one of them and there are several others.

E-bikes are not taken seriously in the US, as a result, people consider it as a recreational toy. As the market matures, for many it could be a replacement of a car moving from 2-car family to 1-car family.
It instills confidence in customers and speaks about the R+D efforts and confidence of the company.

My rad power bike was done in 2,

It caters to a very specific group of people and the component choice reflects in that. There is a whole company dedicated fulfilling the needs of customers who want better quality and power from Rad Power bikes:

Area 13

boltonebikes.com

He has built probably a million dollar company just filling this need.

the Bosch trek was ready to be disposed off in 3 years.

Trek offers a limited lifetime warranty on their frame and it matters a lot to prospective customers. I don't know why you disposed your Trek bike?
Care to share?

My recommendation would be to not focus on the price first.

Price is certainly a factor. While it is not the prime factor, it should be taken into account.
May I ask. Do you have a Tesla Model S 100D?
It's a superb car!! The fastest sedan in the world and the longest range EV so far.
If you have not purchased it, why not?
Well, you may say, I have a perfectly capable Lexus or a BMW or a Camry and have no need for a Tesla.

But, why do you think they released Model 3?
For E-bikes to really make an impact, we need a Camry or Accord of E-bikes.
Rolls Royce of E-bikes at $10K is fine, caters to a niche market but doesn't swing the needle in anyway.

It becomes a fancy, entertaining thing and never a life-transformative piece of technology. Some people may appreciate it and some companies may be perfectly happy to cater to the market in that way but to if the company's mission is to promote clean energy technologies, the product has to be affordable.

 

[Johnny]

...


Another question - for everyone else here - how important is a 10yr frame warranty? My rad power bike was done in 2, the Bosch trek was ready to be disposed off in 3 years. Technology changes so much so quickly that I can’t imagine keeping a 2-3k bike for 10 years.

Thoughts?

I agree that 10 years is a long time to keep a bike and even after 5 years it is simply better to buy a new bike instead of replacing expensive outdated components.
(However my analog bikes are older than 3 years , I have friends riding their 10-15 year old bikes that are still in great shape so electronics aside a bike can last along time.)

On the other hand a 10 year frame warranty shows that the manufacturer is confident in its product and when one pays 4-5k to a bike it is expected to function 4-5 years without a major problem.


2 years sound short, maybe you can elaborate a little more on what you mean by rad power is done in 2 years and Trek is done in 3.

 

[pennybags]

2 years sound short, maybe you can elaborate a little more on what you mean by rad power is done in 2 years and Trek is done in 3.

Rad power was not smooth enough. So bought a trek. Now after 3 years, the bike doesn’t hold up to newer tech and feel. Both bikes work, but spares for Trek are harder to get due to model changes. Even thoughThe frame is there for 3-4 years, Dealer support is relatively more expensive. Motor warranty was limited after the first 2 years. It’s just real life.
Tech changes so much year after year that even though the frame may hold up, there’s not a lot of value to the bike after 3 or may be 4 years.
Don’t get me wrong, it is great to have frame warranty. But my question is broader- does is matter to have a 10 year warranty if the bike is only useful for 3-4 years?

As an analogy - it’s like having a 10 year bond with a duration of 4 years.

 

[Johnny]

Rad power was not smooth enough. So bought a trek. Now after 3 years, the bike doesn’t hold up to newer tech and feel. Both bikes work, but spares for Trek are harder to get due to model changes. Even thoughThe frame is there for 3-4 years, Dealer support is relatively more expensive. Motor warranty was limited after the first 2 years. It’s just real life.
Tech changes so much year after year that even though the frame may hold up, there’s not a lot of value to the bike after 3 or may be 4 years.
Don’t get me wrong, it is great to have frame warranty. But my question is broader- does is matter to have a 10 year warranty if the bike is only useful for 3-4 years?

As an analogy - it’s like having a 10 year bond with a duration of 4 years.

I understand your points. But the 10 year frame warranty is imo a measure of how confident the manufacturer in their frames. Giving 10 year frame warranty on a well built frame is not a big burden for the manufacturer.

Which Trek model do you have? Which parts were hard to find ?

 

[pennybags]

I understand your points. But the 10 year frame warranty is imo a measure of how confident the manufacturer in their frames. Giving 10 year frame warranty on a well built frame is not a big burden for the manufacturer.

Which Trek model do you have? Which parts were hard to find ?

Supercommuter 7. Battery mount frame got dinged pretty bad on a wipeout, and was hard to get it fixed/ replaced. Took a few months of waiting since the bike was already phased out. Multiple issues with derailluer, and a motor replacement at 3k miles. Definitely everything covered under warranty - but still the waiting part sucks.

10 year frame warranty is a great idea in general. However, if your frames have been certified (EN / ASTM etc), that is close to a given. Those standards are pretty up there.

However, just decoupling the "idea" from reality for a few minutes - do you think that we should also consider if the company is still around in 10 years to honor the warranty ? Hypothetically we are talking about a startup, with no idea of long term viability.

The point I am trying to make is, a 10 year warranty is not a selling point for an average consumer. I am not good at marketing, but I would not have chosen the 10 year frame warranty as a selling point at the outset. This bike looks unique with the Pinion gear box. I just feel that there are other, better selling points for the bike.

Like Ravi mentioned earlier - getting the Neodrive, a proven tech, will be an excellent feature or USP to market as well.

 

[Explorer-1]

Z20RS motor has been around for sometime. There is a 40 page long thread here: https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/alber-2018-neodrives-antrieb-z20.52623/

....

That thread is for the base Z20 model, not the RS (which is here: https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/i...edelec-mit-gates-pinion-neodrive-z20rs.74582/).

Are you saying there is not much difference with the RS model? While I don't expect a lot, but I hope the KV of the motor is different and that they would have included design changes learned from 3 years of the Z20 in its design.

Just wanted to know if you were planing to use them, and you answered that they were being considered, so I'm happy with the answer; note I'm not saying you should use them, just wanted to know if it had been decided at this time so I could start my research. Obviously the top speed of the base Z20 would not fly, but the RS is acceptable to me in terms of top speed.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Definitely everything covered under warranty

I am glad this was covered and you were able to get back to riding.
Bosch stocks several hundred motors + batteries + displays at any given point within the US. It makes any warranty replacement easier.
Normally delays are often administrative related but Bosch has been very good with support.
I would say Shimano is pretty close. Everything else is completely dependent on the company or the distributor.

Warranty is only as good as the entity standing behind it. So, it is quite important to know the person behind a product and their history.

if your frames have been certified (EN / ASTM etc), that is close to a given.

Most companies do not share this data at all. That is why there is so much variation in frame quality and between suppliers.
Dropout tolerances, pivot point bearings, suspension kinematics, frame material and geometry etc.. there are so many factors that go into frame building.
I agree most people won't be able to discern the quality of a $400 frame vs $100 frame.

When I visit Rohloff and Alber Neodrive this summer, I will make sure to visit Kalkhoff.
Their E-bike testing facility is top-notch. Take a look at this:

One of my goals is to make a detailed video of the frame design and testing process. This will be helpful to those who enjoy learning the engineering behind E-bikes.
Not many E-bike companies share that kind of testing data. When you purchase a chemical, they provide something like MSDS : Materials Safety Data sheet. QC can be quite hit and miss at sub 2K pricepoint.
If a company enables full access to their customers all testing data (incl video) of the frames with motor power on, customers will know they are in good hands!

This bike looks unique with the Pinion gear box. I just feel that there are other, better selling points for the bike.

I concur with you. When people see the final specs and price, it will be a very compelling case.

Hypothetically we are talking about a startup, with no idea of long term viability.

This is the case for every startup and every company including Trek, Giant and Specialized were startups at one point.
While it can be construed as a sales pitch, what we bring to the table is extremely unique.
Not many E-bike companies have someone with a PhD in battery technology, 2 E-bike world records and world's top battery scientist on the company board.

 

[Johnny]

Supercommuter 7. Battery mount frame got dinged pretty bad on a wipeout, and was hard to get it fixed/ replaced. Took a few months of waiting since the bike was already phased out. Multiple issues with derailluer, and a motor replacement at 3k miles. Definitely everything covered under warranty - but still the waiting part sucks.

10 year frame warranty is a great idea in general. However, if your frames have been certified (EN / ASTM etc), that is close to a given. Those standards are pretty up there.

However, just decoupling the "idea" from reality for a few minutes - do you think that we should also consider if the company is still around in 10 years to honor the warranty ? Hypothetically we are talking about a startup, with no idea of long term viability.

The point I am trying to make is, a 10 year warranty is not a selling point for an average consumer. I am not good at marketing, but I would not have chosen the 10 year frame warranty as a selling point at the outset. This bike looks unique with the Pinion gear box. I just feel that there are other, better selling points for the bike.

Like Ravi mentioned earlier - getting the Neodrive, a proven tech, will be an excellent feature or USP to market as well.

Your experience with SC7 did not surprise me. Companies like Trek are still not designing ebikes for long distance tourers or commuters. Also I have seen quite a lot of people who had their Bosch mid drives replaced so mid drive durability is also a question.

The problem with the bikes like SC 7/8 or Allant 8/9.9 etc is that you pay a hefty premium and all that brings is more convenient warranty work for 2 years. These bikes are just no-suspension mid drive bikes with a hybrid geometry that are not designed for commuting. The cassette and derailleur they use are designed for mtb's which are too expensive to maintain when riding long distances. The warranty work is nice but if your bike breaks down frequently that still is a big inconvenience for a commuter even if it is fixed under warranty.

As you mentioned pinion addresses the derailleur specific problems and it brings down the required maintenance significantly. Since it doesn't carry the load of the motor, If pinion is reliable for a tourer it will be reliable for a commuter.

The direct drive motor is significantly more durable than a mainstream mid drive and It will also be easier to service. I also don't think it will be outdated in the next 5 years since BL motors matured a long time ago and the direct drives in Ravi's setup will already be operating at a high efficiency.

So if you start with a bike that fits you well and comes with this pinion + direct drive + smooth torque sensor, I think you may want to keep it for longer than 5 years.