Zen Shakti

[Johnny]

Quick question to those following this thread!

Which would you prefer?

existing 48V, 14Ah (~670Whr) pack at a lower price

or

48V, 17.5Ah (~840 Whr) for $200 more?

Imo $200 for additional 170wh may not be worth it for your targeted price range and customers. 670wh is pretty good, a second battery option could be nice.

 

[vincent]

When answering I did not think about the streamlined look of the bike, if the larger battery ruins that I might go with a 14ah especially if a second one was a good price …

but as a general rule I almost always opt for the bigger one

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Thanks for all the responses. Looks like most people would "prefer" a higher capacity battery if the weight penalty is not significant.

I agree with many of you that anything beyond 17.5Ah, will become too heavy. Having biked for over 50,000 miles in the last 8 years, 840Wh would suffice for most riding conditions (except a few edge cases) and a spare charger can be used if needed.

Last year, when we started the project, we wanted to keep it under the $2K price point (as indicated by the title of this thread). But, with the recent fiasco of electronic chip shortage and other component shortages, the prices of most components have gone up and the supply chain in Asia has become difficult to deal with.
We also realized that we would rather deal with educated customers who are willing to pay a slight premium for a higher quality bike than compete with $1500 bikes straight out of china with poor-quality components.
It is much easier to deal with educated customers who understand the benefits of a nicer controller, torque sensor, higher capacity battery with 4-5 yrs of warranty, etc.

So, the bike will cost a bit more than $2K, and to offset that, we would want to offer a larger '17.5 Ah' battery with a very long cycle life, a true FOC sine wave ASI controller, suspension seatpost. It will have a battery larger than the Stromer ST2 (814 for ST2 vs. 840 for Shakti) and a very similar controller but for less than $2.5K total cost and I think that is a truly incredible value.

Will there be a difference in the look of the bike between the two batteries?

No, the bike geometry will be the same as before and will maintain its sleek aesthetics.

17.5 if there is no significant weight increase.

It will add about 1.75lbs extra.
Our goal is to keep it in the mid-'50s for best handling and performance. I will confirm the weight in about 10 days with a picture.

Hard to do in short term, but long term I like the idea of two models, a light and a heavy. Light = 14ah battery, lighter narrower tires (~50mm), rigid fork, 5-10 lbs less; maybe rack and fenders optional (I thought I wanted full fenders but I've been happy with a clip on rear fender on my road bike, but work from home makes that a lot easier). Competes with the Trek Allants, Giant Fastroad, etc.

The Shakti as configured is what I see as the heavy version, with the bigger battery.

Ideally, if we can build a bike in the mid-40lbs range, that would be fantastic but that would involve complex modifications. I think a lighter bike + minimal assist is preferred by strong riders but for a majority of folks, they would prefer a stronger assist and don't mind a 55 lbs bike. I mean, Rad Power Bikes, Aventon fat bikes are 75 lbs and almost 100,000 riders bought those bikes last year!
From my experience, nobody complains if the battery pack is higher in capacity but lower capacity would immediately put us in a tricky situation with 20-30% of the riders.

 

[Edrummer]

Hey Ravi,
Will there still be a dual battery Shakti option?

 

[6zfshdb]

Thanks for all the responses. Looks like most people would "prefer" a higher capacity battery if the weight penalty is not significant.

From my experience, nobody complains if the battery pack is higher in capacity but lower capacity would immediately put us in a tricky situation with 20-30% of the riders.

While this is true, a case can be made for an optional smaller second battery.
With a bit of management, my existing 52v 17.5ah battery will usually give me a 60 mile range. That is around the max my tired old bones can handle. If I'm riding on a rough surface with slope and wind factors, I usually carry a spare battery just in case. My spare is 15ah and weighs 10 lbs. When I do use it, I rarely exceed 20% of it's capacity. That's a lot of weight to carry for a relatively small amount of use.

Ideally, 5 or 6 ah is all I need to reduce range anxiety. There are 36 and 48V batteries with this capacity on the market but none in the 52v range. Lately, I've been experimenting with 60v power tool batteries to use as a spare. The 4ah one I'm currently using weighs 3 lbs and, with a bit of care, will give me an extra 12 - 15 miles.

The down side to this approach is the exposed wiring involved. The ideal solution for me anyway would be a 5 ah battery that would plug into the bike directly when needed. It would be small & light enough to carry in a bag or pannier or even left on the bike if it could be incorporated into the design. The optional 2nd battery port perhaps?

Perhaps the second battery option you plan could have several battery sizes to choose from?

 

[Asher]

Ideally, if we can build a bike in the mid-40lbs range, that would be fantastic but that would involve complex modifications. I think a lighter bike + minimal assist is preferred by strong riders but for a majority of folks, they would prefer a stronger assist and don't mind a 55 lbs bike. I mean, Rad Power Bikes, Aventon fat bikes are 75 lbs and almost 100,000 riders bought those bikes last year!
From my experience, nobody complains if the battery pack is higher in capacity but lower capacity would immediately put us in a tricky situation with 20-30% of the riders.

The problem is, Rad Power, Aventon, Juiced, Ride1Up, Biktrix and everyone else already sell those 75 lb bikes...

As far as I know, there is no one selling a lighter weight mid-range class 3 commuter among the direct sales brands. Ride1Up has the Prodigy but it's on pre-order, and it's a mid-drive; it also has some entry level options currently for sale (roadster single speed and budget multispeed Core-5).

Also, there are lots of people in cities with relatively good bike networks who simply don't have a garage where they can afford to wheel heavy ass bikes in and out. So their options are something ideally under 50 lbs, or an analog bike, unless the city is providing on street secure storage (which is rare).

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Hey Ravi,
Will there still be a dual battery Shakti option?

Of course!
You will have an option of an additional power pack on the downtube.
This additional pack can be 11Ah or 14Ah.

 

[opimax]

Late to answer but I never have enough battery! If I have an excess energy I usually go faster on the way home and still use all of the 3 batteries I carry on any bike I have

so my answer is larger battery regardless of weight…as always my opinion, what works for my riding style to answer his specific question.…

 

[Ebiker01]

Maybe a model with a Ti/Crabon frame ?
Yes , grammar police, that 6 C /12.011 chemical element was spelled correctly.

Obviously a light frame will raise the price, but there will be lots of customers interested for this option. Longer range, easier to carry and ride as a normal bike , plus with a 840WH pack it won't feel that heavy.
Smthng. to think about , i would rather see more Shakti ebikes on the roads instead of Bosch equipped ones !

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

As far as I know, there is no one selling a lighter weight mid-range class 3 commuter among the direct sales brands.

I hear what you are saying! There is certainly a place for a well-designed Class-3 bike that weighs 40lbs.
To build something that lasts a long time, not just a fad of times, is difficult and takes a painstaking approach.
We get approached by a few Chinese manufacturers willing to sell belt-driven hub motor ebike for $880, all the time. Probably, it weighs 40lbs.

But, doing it the right way, with higher-quality components and offer excellent support, takes time.
Toyota/ Lexus has built a reputation by doing things slowly while maintaining a strong focus on reliability. I guess Zen is playing the long game! But I hear what you are saying.

Ideally, 5 or 6 ah is all I need to reduce range anxiety. There are 36 and 48V batteries with this capacity on the market but none in the 52v range. Lately, I've been experimenting with 60v power tool batteries to use as a spare. The 4ah one I'm currently using weighs 3 lbs and, with a bit of care, will give me an extra 12 - 15 miles.

52V packs are great. Similar performance can be obtained by fine-tuning the 48V controller. If we want to do it the brute way, just packing more energy is the way to go.
But, clever optimization of 48V, 17.5Ah pack will offer excellent performance if the motor and controller are chosen and tuned, precisely.

Offering the second battery is not a problem at all. It sits on the downtube and may affect the aesthetics of the bike. As you alluded, 840Wh would provide ~60+ miles and that would cover a majority of the riders.
An extra 48V,14Ah pack combined with the main pack would offer almost 100+ miles and that equates to almost 6 hours of continuous saddle time.

 

[fxr3]

What size battery do I prefer? Idk, the mfg. should decide that for me!
But more importantly- when can I purchase a Shakti?

 

[opimax]

Or at least a test ride…

 

[Explorer-1]

I'll be interested in ranges people get on a single ride with the 840Wh ( nominal rating) get. I could never get that (60mi) on my hub drives, but someone going that far is often packing extra weight on the bike in panniers (at least i am) including extra batteries, and my bikes weigh more. With 2 840Wh (nominal spec) batteries i would be pretty happy, and might be willing to carry a 3rd. 17.5Ah batteries seem like a sweet spot right now if good cells are used. Personally i don't mind heavier batteries, but most are junk, if i don't have larger batteries i just need to carry extra anyway. Love that many bikes are now supporting 2 batteries as extra batter ascetics don't bother me i'm not trying to look sleek or cool, just get from a to b without any problems.

 

[Explorer-1]

@Ebiker01
Sorin,

We will be using even better cells that last thousands of cycles.

Sounds like you have decided on LiFePO Chemistry? 52V 840Wh battery with that chemistry would be larger so i guess that is the reason you are sticking with 48V? Are we talking 14S or 13S?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Sounds like you have decided on LiFePO Chemistry?

We are not using LFP.
LFP simply doesn't have the energy density needed for E-bikes.

What size battery do I prefer? Idk, the mfg. should decide that for me!
But more importantly- when can I purchase a Shakti?

Currently, our work is focused on dialing the ride characteristics of a "premium" bike.
So many of the bikes in the $2.5K range do not have the ride quality that makes people go "wow, that was buttery smooth". Stromer bikes, when working well had this amazing quality and we are trying to get as close to that as possible. The pre-order page will go live as soon as we finalize those final tests.

Thanks for your support EBR community. We have a very high bar for our products and we will do everything in our capacity to hit those marks.

 

[Explorer-1]

Looking forward to the official battery specs. Probably not the next bike I'm looking for, but the price point is interesting for a quality bike.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

We have been busy designing an advanced battery pack for the Shakti model. This is a bike we are eager to bring to the market in high volume. There have been various setbacks in terms of supply chain but it has given us extra time for refining the product.
One of the critical components of an E-bike is the battery and we are testing various cells at different temperatures using temperature-controlled test chambers, as you can see in this image below.
We are co-designing our own BMS with our engineering partner.
We want to offer an excellent warranty (a min of 3yr on a battery pack) to our customers that is unheard of in this price range and we are doing our homework to ensure these packs last a long time.

 

[vincent]

Awesome work Ravi!!!

 

[wabaseballfamily]

Glad to see an update.

 

[new2ebike_eh]

What is the current view of timeline with the supply chain situation, particularly for the step thru model?