Watt Wagons Critical Product Availability Status

[Cuz Vinny]

Just heard that the Hyrda / Helios frame factory had to shut down again on Thursday. Such a weird time to be alive right now. Sucks, but what can I do? Frustrating.

That’s the problem. Getting anything from China nowadays is difficult. I’d love to see WW move the frame production to the USA. I bought a Vintage Electric Scrambler and it shipped within a week of me placing my order.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

The first photo was with the regular front chain ring. The last photos are with the Fat Spyder installed. If I put the stock Bafang front chainring back on I suspect the chain would go back to skipping in the smallest three cogs.
I'm not sure what this frame was built for, but I doubt it was for a regular cassette/derailleur setup.

Deacon -- It could be an incompatible part issue in your drivetrain - cogs, chainring, chain, even be incorrect spacers - but I have doubts it's the offset at the shaft.
That was a problem. You fixed it. It's still outboard too far. The offset of the cogs are now the prime suspect.
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Accepting for sake of argument that a correct chain-line has no more than +/- 3mm (max) deviation from centerline (center cog on cassette to ring-gear), your cassette (w/ two gears disengaging) = your cassette is offset outboard 6 - 9mm off the center line.
You could keep moving the chainring outboard another 8mm and guessing.
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The last titanium (CT) frame out the door was set up detuned to UC specs for a 'flexible' customer - prioritized - to get you on the road.
That's why I smile, 'you got my bike' - it demonstrates how even prioritizing customers, being as equitable as possible and doing the right thing, chit happens.
Now, the new frame is in manufacture stage. As I said at the outset: That was the last and why I rolled into a UC, and I hope my order date priority is still the same. You could say I bowed out of them having to explain the obvious to me.
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Not you, but anyone discounting this pandemic has affected us all, seriously? It my killed friends and family, and aftereffects beat this leathery old bird down-for-a-year - which rhymes with derrière, the spot such doubters can kiss). How often I think 'we don't know the private lives of others'.

Just heard that the Hyrda / Helios frame factory had to shut down again on Thursday. Such a weird time to be alive right now. Sucks, but what can I do? Frustrating.

Best of times, worst of times.
I missed something. Where's the H/ H factory?
I'm getting a lot of hits from Frey. Just ordered a bunch of titanium fasteners from Aliexpress. Tried to re-up a few pairs of gloves, but Rockbrothers is shut down - to me anyway.
On Alibaba I'm seeing June 29 delivery for titanium G510 frames - but none even for sale on Aliexpress and all 45 day estimates.

Fn'F

 

[Fast n' Furious]

That’s the problem. Getting anything from China nowadays is difficult. I’d love to see WW move the frame production to the USA. I bought a Vintage Electric Scrambler and it shipped within a week of me placing my order.

Can't help but feel they're deliberately choking the wholesale distributors out and selling direct.
USA ti welding is crazy high price. Hi-tech welders are renown (rightfully I guess) for being such prima donnas.
I'm was thinking Mexico, even have connections. It would still be a substantial investment.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

Can't help but feel they're deliberately choking the wholesale distributors out and selling direct.
USA ti welding is crazy high price. Hi-tech welders are renown (rightfully I guess) for being such prima donnas.
I'm was thinking Mexico, even have connections. It would still be a substantial investment.

I‘m going to build a Carver TI Allroad as my exercise bike (no motor).

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I might give those chain spacers a try. Thanks.

edit: out of stock.

Frame size
By most bike sizing standards a UC Pro medium frame is really a large frame. I've compared the dimensions of my medium UC Pro with other medium commuter ebikes and my UC Pro's frame is considerably larger.
I also took the bike into my favorite local bike shop and they also said, after taking measurements, a large frame.

Over 3 or 4 months Pushkar and I had come to an agreement that I would send back my medium UC Pro and he would build me a small sized UC Pro. Note that the main reason the bike is going back is the shifting problem-the frame size is secondary. When the small sized titanium frames arrive he said the small sized frames were almost the same size as the mediums. He said it looked like they were built incorrectly and that the changes would be made for the next titanium frame shipment.
God only knows when the next batch of frames will make it to Boston.

Shifting
I've come to the conclusion that my bike will never shift properly in all of its gears. Never.
The frame's super-wide rear hub spacing makes it impossible to install a regular derailleur and have it shift properly. My bike's frame originally had a 3 speed hub, which, I suspect, worked well. I don't think the bike was ever designed to work with a regular derailleur.
The mechanic at the bike shop I frequent, who has 18 years experience working bikes, said he had never seen a bike with such a large cross-chaining.
FnF, I'm wondering if my old-framed UC Pro was actually a CT? Is there more of a difference besides the super wide rear hub between the two models?

Final note
I took my UC Pro for a 55km ride today (the rain stopped!) and I have to say this bike is a joy to ride. It's very comfortable and the power is addictive.
I rode up a REALLY steep hill during my ride. I don't know what degree of steepness this 1 km hill is, but only a handful of riders on regular bikes have made it all the way to the top without getting off and walking.
I rode up in level 3 (I have mine set to 5 levels) and the bike flew up the hill. With some of the steeper parts I hit 1300 W.

This like is turning out to be my favorite bike. If I could use all of the gears and the bike was a bit smaller it would be almost perfect. I say 'almost' because I'm still think it looks a bit DYI, but that becomes irrelevant when I ride it.

FnF, you're going to love this bike when you get it.

Photo taken at the top of the hill.

View attachment 122650

Glad to see you riding

FnF, I'm wondering if my old-framed UC Pro was actually a CT? Is there more of a difference besides the super wide rear hub between the two models?

I'm thinking you're proving there are other geometric differences.
UC's did not come in wheelsets over 3.0". I know because I was all set on 4.0"s (for sand) and had to go to a CT frame to get them.
CT chain-stay is different in both width and geometry. Look how much room you have ahead of your rear wheel? That's +++ clearance.

Your CT frame - built with UC size wheels, cassette drive, etc - was the last old style frame - period.
Going forward everything changed; a new design; the titanium CT is discontinued and as a new (100lb) CT, rises from the ashes.
I think WW did you a solid - or you'd be waiting like me. lol

And you were right all along. It was designed for an IGH w/ Gates drive -the cat's meow for a hard-tail. Straight line deviation is set with a laser pointer, no variation required - or allowed. The entire spectrum of 'alignment' problems being discussed evaporate.
The pointer's $120 and the lessons from Gates are free. Tension testing is included.

FnF, you're going to love this bike when you get it.

Thank you my brother. I may even end up with it - when you're done! lol.
'The prodigal Cross Tour comes home - after touring North America - to a feast (a 4.0" wheelset some Jones Titanium h-bars)' ?
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Really. Your encouragement makes me feel good. I'm drooling at the bit.

My, my what an elegant machine.

Fn'F

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I‘m going to build a Carver TI Allroad as my exercise bike (no motor).

Whoaaaaa. 'No-mo moto' ? Say it ain't so, Vino ? You say 'no joe' and go for da slo-mo?
Ho ho my bro. You'll be back.
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I watched this guy, https://jonesbikes.com/jones-titanium-plus-lwb-spaceframe-with-titanium-truss-fork/ hoppin' 'round in circles on his ti framed bike.
Quite impressed. That's a 2,365 grams (5.21 lbs) ti LWB frame (I live for specs).
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Next build for me, thinking a sub-40lb, ti-framed, 10000watt MXUS X19 hubbed 'sport-about' street-fighter w/ single speed gates drive and Magura throttle).
A 48v configured controller, using Samsung Hi-Discharge 13S3P 21700's, should provide 20 miles hauling donkey - and w/ carbon wheelset be able to pull wheelies if I have a fork under 3lbs.

This motor: https://mxus.en.alibaba.com/product...otor_for_electric_bicycle_conversion_kit.html

Strapping young peddlers like you, I'll never keep up with.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Whoaaaaaaa. Rockbrothers unlocked and let me in - nice sale on gloves.
The ones I like - half fingers same price I paid a year and a half back w/ 13 day delivery. Previous pair lasted - still not falling apart and saved my palm in a spill.
I've been bummed I couldn't order more - now XXL's are in stock. They run a size or two small. So I nabbed two pair.
For me, best gloves made last a couple years riding duty - unless I lose one.
A good time to buy San Diego fall and winter gloves so I grabbed a pair of these
The XXL size goes quick in the fall. Under $35 - with tax? No worries.

I get to the end and it say's 'some items not available', then lists everything I ordered. lol

Psyche.

Fn'F

 

[Fast n' Furious]

The Baoji Titanium Valley, near Xi'an in Shaanxi Province, China is the titanium center. They went into partial lockdown on April 15th.
One of the titanium producers (Shaanxi King-whale Information Technology Co., Ltd.) is up and running (maybe).

But look at the welding job (lower photo) at the seat-tube ? And is the seat tube supposed to be offset of center at the motor housing like that ?

See: Titanium frames for more photos. Look closely and there are more sloppy welds.

Welders I've known produce 'rolls of dimes' welds. That stuff is awful.

With titanium it's what you can't see that's the big danger: Oxygen embrittlement

"From a general point of view the oxidation permeates the cross section of the component. Unlike steel or other non-reactive metals where the oxidation is limited to a few microns in depth, the oxygen reacts with the reactive base metals and affects the mechanical properties of the full cross section (or at least to a considerable depth). Wire brushing the surface will return the color to a bright shiny silver leading to the false impression no oxidation or damage has occurred. There is no means of repairing the damage caused by the reaction with air other than to remove all of the affected metal, i.e., weld deposit and adjacent base metal."
See: American Welding Society forum

My understanding is that (from straw, to rainbowed to black) colored titanium is contaminated "affect[ing] the mechanical properties of the full cross section". In Aerospace or Nuclear, such discoloration is rejected out of hand. In knife handles (scales) it's often prized. Fasteners, heat treated in such a way lose a lot of strength.

Looking at some of these company's production pics are interesting. Is blowing gas in the tube - such as I see - and gas at the tip sufficient ?
It seems ingenious, plug it up; purge and set up a slow flow; inert gas at both ends, as long as you're keeping the gas flow at the outer hot-spot until cooled below 400 - or 800F as some sources claim - to prevent oxidization.

I can't help but think Whale's showcase photos, showing such sloppy cosmetics on a frame costing this much is a big red flag.

Again why I'm glad I have a professional that knows the waters creating my build.
I couldn't do it any faster - or better. Buying a frame could prove to be a complete nightmare.

Anyway, it's a good sign we're seeing the direct market Whale making frames - if they really are.

Fn'F

 

[Cuz Vinny]

The Baoji Titanium Valley, near Xi'an in Shaanxi Province, China is the titanium center. They went into partial lockdown on April 15th.
One of the titanium producers (Shaanxi King-whale Information Technology Co., Ltd.) is up and running (maybe).

But look at the welding job (lower photo) at the seat-tube ? And is the seat tube supposed to be offset of center at the motor housing like that ?

View attachment 123678

See: Titanium frames for more photos. Look closely and there are more sloppy welds.

View attachment 123679
Welders I've known produce 'rolls of dimes' welds. That stuff is awful.

With titanium it's what you can't see that's the big danger: Oxygen embrittlement

"From a general point of view the oxidation permeates the cross section of the component. Unlike steel or other non-reactive metals where the oxidation is limited to a few microns in depth, the oxygen reacts with the reactive base metals and affects the mechanical properties of the full cross section (or at least to a considerable depth). Wire brushing the surface will return the color to a bright shiny silver leading to the false impression no oxidation or damage has occurred. There is no means of repairing the damage caused by the reaction with air other than to remove all of the affected metal, i.e., weld deposit and adjacent base metal."
See: American Welding Society forum

My understanding is that (from straw, to rainbowed to black) colored titanium is contaminated "affect[ing] the mechanical properties of the full cross section". In Aerospace or Nuclear, such discoloration is rejected out of hand. In knife handles (scales) it's often prized. Fasteners, heat treated in such a way lose a lot of strength.

Looking at some of these company's production pics are interesting. Is blowing gas in the tube - such as I see - and gas at the tip sufficient ?
It seems ingenious, plug it up; purge and set up a slow flow; inert gas at both ends, as long as you're keeping the gas flow at the outer hot-spot until cooled below 400 - or 800F as some sources claim - to prevent oxidization.

I can't help but think Whale's showcase photos, showing such sloppy cosmetics on a frame costing this much is a big red flag.

Again why I'm glad I have a professional that knows the waters creating my build.
I couldn't do it any faster - or better. Buying a frame could prove to be a complete nightmare.

Anyway, it's a good sign we're seeing the direct market Whale making frames - if they really are.

Fn'F

What’s your opinion of Carver TI frames? I’m going to do a regular bike build with their All Road frame. They do custom stuff so I’m curious to see if they would do an ebike frame.

 

[scrambler]

The offset may be normal, to get the chain line right

 

[loamoaf]

Offset is normal, the motor itself is not symmetrical. Looking at the outside of my E06 frame the seatpost is centered, but the actual mounting points that line up with the motor mounts are not. The mounts on the motor are offset at least 1cm to the side.

You can see here in the CAD for the bracket the mounts are offset to the side

 

[Surly]

@loamoaf What rear shock did you put on your e06?

 

[loamoaf]

What rear shock did you put on your e06?

DVO Topaz T3 - 190x50 but I got a pair of offset bushings. Only using a single offset bushing so the effective shock size is 188x50 - which is pretty close to the 185x45/44 they ship on the bike that uses the E06. I checked the frame through the full travel of the shock this way and there's no issues with clearance on the linkage/ seat tube, and maybe 6mm or so between the air bladder & downtube, setting the sag is easy enough to wind up at roughly the same spot but gives just a little more room for shock extension to keep the tire down. I've got a Mastodon Pro EXT up front but needed to print a bumper similar to Specialized bikes to prevent smashing the tops of the stanchions into the frame.

Frame's excellent though I did have to clean & epoxy up some splinters around where they cut holes inside the frame for running cables. If they went just a bit slower then I probably wouldn't have had to, but sealing up all the cut edges is extra peace of mind anyway. I'm 6'0" and the 18inch frame is just about the right size for me, but it is tall as hell on 29x3 or fatbike tires. I fit a 120mm PNW dropper in it and it juuuust goes all the way down and the full extension sets me about right height - though I can fine tune that on the dropper. I'd also say if I got another frame from them I would get it unpainted and just have my paint guy throw some automotive & 2K clear on it.

What appealed to me about the Hydra was the longer travel in the rear and the longer shock meant far more options - being a M620 powered monster truck I would have gone for a DVO Jade shock, got a couple of cheaper coils within a range to test, then ordered a coil in my desired weight the right size for the shock from Swift. I do think the vertical shock is a little friendlier to frame bags or a secondary frame battery since you've got unobstructed access to the top tube, and I'm sure the suspension linkage could be redesigned for a longer shock, though not without some engineering to utilize a longer travel shock while maintaining the rear frame travel, leverage curve, anti squat/rise characteristics. I think what will wind up is my M620 powered bike is going to be for bikepacking/hauling camping stuff + dog, and I'll wind up with a lighter, off the shelf emtb for riding more serious trails

 

[Surly]

DVO Topaz T3 - 190x50 but I got a pair of offset bushings. Only using a single offset bushing so the effective shock size is 188x50 - which is pretty close to the 185x45/44 they ship on the bike that uses the E06. I checked the frame through the full travel of the shock this way and there's no issues with clearance on the linkage/ seat tube, and maybe 6mm or so between the air bladder & downtube, setting the sag is easy enough to wind up at roughly the same spot but gives just a little more room for shock extension to keep the tire down. I've got a Mastodon Pro EXT up front but needed to print a bumper similar to Specialized bikes to prevent smashing the tops of the stanchions into the frame.

Frame's excellent though I did have to clean & epoxy up some splinters around where they cut holes inside the frame for running cables. If they went just a bit slower then I probably wouldn't have had to, but sealing up all the cut edges is extra peace of mind anyway. I'm 6'0" and the 18inch frame is just about the right size for me, but it is tall as hell on 29x3 or fatbike tires. I fit a 120mm PNW dropper in it and it juuuust goes all the way down and the full extension sets me about right height - though I can fine tune that on the dropper. I'd also say if I got another frame from them I would get it unpainted and just have my paint guy throw some automotive & 2K clear on it.

What appealed to me about the Hydra was the longer travel in the rear and the longer shock meant far more options - being a M620 powered monster truck I would have gone for a DVO Jade shock, got a couple of cheaper coils within a range to test, then ordered a coil in my desired weight the right size for the shock from Swift. I do think the vertical shock is a little friendlier to frame bags or a secondary frame battery since you've got unobstructed access to the top tube, and I'm sure the suspension linkage could be redesigned for a longer shock, though not without some engineering to utilize a longer travel shock while maintaining the rear frame travel, leverage curve, anti squat/rise characteristics. I think what will wind up is my M620 powered bike is going to be for bikepacking/hauling camping stuff + dog, and I'll wind up with a lighter, off the shelf emtb for riding more serious trails

I've got a fox float on mine but will be having a dhx2 custom made. Got a new custom wheel build being done as we speak, 29x3 for summer on dt swiss hx531 with hope fatsno hubs, DHF/DHR II 3C EXA tyres

Fingers crossed i'm doing a race in the Sierra Nevadas (Spain) at the end of the year with desert and mountain stages, 3 inch for mountains and 4.8x3.8 in the desert. Can't wait

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Offset is normal, the motor itself is not symmetrical. Looking at the outside of my E06 frame the seatpost is centered, but the actual mounting points that line up with the motor mounts are not. The mounts on the motor are offset at least 1cm to the side.

You can see here in the CAD for the bracket the mounts are offset to the side
View attachment 123700

That offset isn't normal. lol. The photo of the seat stays - botch-welded in crooked to make the hacked in, off kilter seat tube fit is a dead giveaway.
Not sure why you keep posting that fuzzy pic in Chinese? Of course the motor has an offset. The version in English shows that.
But I just want to get this straight. You're saying that HUGE offset is normal, but your tube isn't off-center like that at the motor bracket?
This begs the question: Are the G510 motor brackets all (relatively) the same?
If 'YES' it's welded in the wrong position.
If 'NO' then what's your point, posting stuff in Chinese that's entirely different ????
Do you think this company dumped the Bafang licensed mount cad cam and just made up their own mount?
You completely lost my simple mind, but I guess it make such perfect sense, if you don't think about it.

Thanks for the input and setting me straight !!!

Fn'F

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Hey Deacon : Amazon, right now: Laser alignment tool. $11.00. I just bought one.
Should be easy to set it up flat against the ring-gear and determine if you are aligned in the middle of your gearset - or tell you how much it's off.

Hope this helps.

 

[loamoaf]

@Fast n' Furious my frame's external dimensions show the seatpost centered, but the mounts for the motor are offset to the side and when you install the motor, the motor sits flush with the frame on the drive side and sticks out ~2cm on the non-drive side. There is a plastic cover that came with the motor for the non-drive side that screws into the frame and covers the nuts and washers of the 3 bolts that secure the motor to the frame, and provides a little 'easy' cable access when removed.

Here from Bafang's website you can see the bracket and how much the motor protrudes on the non-drive side, along with that plastic cover

Here you can see how the motor fits up with a frame. The seatpost isn't full centered (to the outer dimension) but the flanges in the bracket are still way offset for the motor to keep the chainline correct. The Ti frame pictured probably just has a little extra on the non-drive side that the plastic cover fits into. If anything providing better splash protection.

I'm too lazy to post pictures of the motor itself - since it's time to go play outside (on my legs... since I don't have my X1 motor yet...) but here's a link to a Frey review of the motor with the best pics I could find that show how dramatic that offset for the mounting points are http://frey-bafang.patransformers.com/2020/06/28/bafang-ultra-max-m620-review/

I would also recommend to anyone and everyone who wants to easily remove their motor for service down the line to pop those mounting bolts out and slather them in some carbon safe grease like Crystal White Lightning then reinstall - more of a sidenote I guess only tangentially related, but... totally relevant lol

 

[loamoaf]

Holy F me in the A. WW shipped my $2000 motor to my old address via UPS after I paid for it to be sent via USPS (automatic forwarding to my new location) and after emailing them requesting them to contact me for a new shipping address before sending it. I now have to jump through some ridiculous hoops to get this thing diverted to a pickup location or potentially miss a day of work hanging out on the other end of town at my old place waiting for a UPS truck to show up, since they won't let me just mark it for pickup online until after a delivery attempt.

I didn't think they could do it but they actually met my expectations I had for them. I knew this itch I felt in the back of my skull telling me not to wait for them but to reach out once more despite my last response to our chain getting immediately ignored.

I can only hope this thing was programmed to 52V as ordered, and that the programming cable is included so I can verify as much.

What a time to be alive!

 

[kwseattle]

Holy F me in the A. WW shipped my $2000 motor to my old address via UPS after I paid for it to be sent via USPS (automatic forwarding to my new location) and after emailing them requesting them to contact me for a new shipping address before sending it. I now have to jump through some ridiculous hoops to get this thing diverted to a pickup location or potentially miss a day of work hanging out on the other end of town at my old place waiting for a UPS truck to show up, since they won't let me just mark it for pickup online until after a delivery attempt.

I didn't think they could do it but they actually met my expectations I had for them. I knew this itch I felt in the back of my skull telling me not to wait for them but to reach out once more despite my last response to our chain getting immediately ignored.

I can only hope this thing was programmed to 52V as ordered, and that the programming cable is included so I can verify as much.

What a time to be alive!

I had a gift sent to a house I hadn't lived at for 3 years a while back. I contacted my old landlord who had since sold the house, so my only option was to drive over and knock. Thankfully they were understanding and handed it right over!

 

[loamoaf]

@kwseattle I spent $7.99 to have it diverted to a pickup location but am going to have to spend my time (and gas - not something I normally whine about but $5.27 for cash at Arco is too f'n much) to go get. I would rather hide in the bushes outside my old place and be weird with the UPS person than rely on someone's good graces.

With my luck we will get nuked while I'm on my way to go pick it up and the world will be gone - so sorry fam it was fun suffering with y'all