Tube vs. Tubeless on ebikes

[Mr. Coffee]

Sure there have been times over the years when I get one flat a week for a month straight. But thats all chance. And some stupidity. I have since learned when there is a home or apartment complex construction site on a given road, I pick another road for a few months.

On one bike tour I encountered a section of road where, very recently, someone had spilled a whole box of sheet rock screws across the highway. I was amongst the cyclists and motorists who were fixing flat tires on the shoulder. Sheet rock screws are kind of the Worst Case Scenario for wrecking tires, especially when they can get caught in your fender and cause serious mayhem.

 

[rob feature]

I have a feeling that most who say they prefer tubes over tubeless have not spent much time with tubeless setups - if any at all.

 

[PCeBiker]

,.. I have since learned when there is a home or apartment complex construction site on a given road, I pick another road for a few months.
You can't blame tubes, praise tubeless or do it the other way around in terms of flat frequency.

There is a recycling place about a km from my house that is full of nails and sharps.
At the back of the property there's a hole in the fence that I can get through that leads to all kinds of broken glass, needles and other sharps like barbed wire.

I travel through that area at the end of almost every ride to test my tires.

I want to find out how effective my "puncture proof" tires really are, and I can always push or carry my bike home if "the shyte hits the fan".

So far, since I got my ebike last November, I've put on over 3000 km.
No Flats.

PS,.. I'm speculating that my almost "bald" street treaded tires are less inclined to pick up sharps?
No knobs to kick up any pointy things.


I've got a whole bunch of sheet rock screws, nails, and other sharps.
I might just spread a bunch out on the driveway and ride over them as a test?

 

[mschwett]

My first flat in two years on a daily driver bike was in January of 2023. None since. Bike is a great big 8 ft long cargo bike using tubes, belted tires, sealant blah blah.

Sure there have been times over the years when I get one flat a week for a month straight. But thats all chance. And some stupidity. I have since learned when there is a home or apartment complex construction site on a given road, I pick another road for a few months.

You can't blame tubes, praise tubeless or do it the other way around in terms of flat frequency. They are the same, provided the rider does their part and uses the right equipment for either choice.

totally agree about the random chance and fickle nature of the universe and flats, but i can say that for my riding and preferred type of tires (smooth, light, fast rolling) the score is 12,000 tubeless miles and no ride ending flats to 2,000 miles and 4 ride ending flats. same roads, same rider, same bikes. no brainer for me for sure.

 

[m@Robertson]

My decision to use one or the other isn't about that effectiveness difference because if done right there isn't one. While individual anecdote is never evidence, thats mine over many years, many different bikes and many thousands of miles with tubed and tubeless. Like I said above its more about fear of the potential for extreme situations on my most-frequent rides that dictate my pick. Sealant seals up anything thats not catastrophic so I'm not concerned with little stuff on either platform. The thing that almost did me in on a tubeless daily driver was an extreme that a belted tire would have survived.

If someone made belted tubeless tires as flatproof as a Schwalbe Marathon Plus (or at all for that matter) then there'd be a strong case for running tubeless on an urban daily driver.

 

[m@Robertson]

PS,.. I'm speculating that my almost "bald" street treaded tires are less inclined to pick up sharps?
No knobs to kick up any pointy things.

My daily drivers were fat bikes for a few years. What I found (and apparently I am not the only one based on other fat bike user group posts) was I had almost no flats on the front tire and lots on the rear. What was happening was the front tire was essentially adhering to a nail laying flat on the pavement just long enough to get it up off the ground. Then it flies free - and goes straight to the rear tire, no longer laying flat. So nails and sharps seem to attract to the rear tire like a magnet.

In your case @PCeBiker I'd bet the soft ground counteracts that, and helps a great deal. If you have your air pressure lowered for off-road that would also help as fat tires don't put anywhere near as much pressure on the ground per square inch as skinny tires do.

Here's that same bike, my commuter at the time this was taken in 2019, the day I set it up tubeless.

 

[teskow]

Almost 100 percent of the flats on cars are on rear tires for that reason.
My experience is to stay away from new housing projects. The nearer you ride to the curb the better chance of getting a flat.

 

[fooferdoggie]

here is where things dont always go perfectly. I wanted to change tires in back on our tandem since the tire I am using is not tables rated as I found out. its been fine for 8 months but I dont want the tire coming off the rim.
so new tires here I take the other one off hit the all with the hose to wash off the sealants off everything put the new tire on set the bead and add some flat out. well the tire went low several times and you can see how it came out around the bead. I was thinking maybe I didn't to put enough sealant in as its hard to tell in that pouch so I put more in we went on a ride and this morning the tire is fully inflated. e go on our bridge ride and about 1/2 way through the tire is low again. we got home ok but it was like what? I was thinking the flat out was not going to work in this tire. take it apart there was plenty in there clean it all up. I found the valve gasket is way to squished down and replace it. put the flat out back in. it leaked for a bit but may be sealed. the hole looked clean through the tape but maybe not. but the valve was working fine till I took the tire off and washed it. so now the bottom pic looks like this. I had tried going this valve in as they kept coming loose. Now I have learned I just use two nuts and lock them together as soon as I put the valve in.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I had tried going this valve in as they kept coming loose. Now I have learned I just use two nuts and lock them together as soon as I put the valve in.

This is a recurring problem for me with tubeless tires. Generally I just grit my teeth and live with it.

I've also noticed a tendency for some pumps (Lezyne is a notorious example) to tend to unscrew the valve when you attach the pump to the valve.

Also this is a situation where a drop of Loctite on the valve nut can help you a lot.

 

[mschwett]

…as fat tires don't put anywhere near as much pressure on the ground per square inch as skinny tires do.

i have often wondered about this in the calculus of flats.

if we accept that some objects are going to cause a puncture no matter what the pressure exerted on the ground by the tire is, the skinnier the tire, the better, because your odds of even hitting the invincibly sharp object are six times smaller with 1/2” of tire on the ground vs 3” of tire.

but then you have the objects which are able to puncture a thin, heavily loaded (per inch) tire, but not able to puncture a knobbier, thicker tire. there the name of the game is durability, not avoidance.

in my riding on local city streets, the flat ratio with 2.5” tires is several times (almost 5x) my 30mm road bike. but the road bike is tubeles …. so …

 

[fooferdoggie]

This is a recurring problem for me with tubeless tires. Generally I just grit my teeth and live with it.

I've also noticed a tendency for some pumps (Lezyne is a notorious example) to tend to unscrew the valve when you attach the pump to the valve.

Also this is a situation where a drop of Loctite on the valve nut can help you a lot.

I tried locktite but then I could hardly get the nut off when I had to use a tube. So using two standard nuts works well. I don’t use a pump or co2 that screws on anymore I find tubes valves are loose out of the box. Having to tighten the valve can cause leaks unless you take the wheel off and shake it. So right way two nuts.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Been using muc off but it’s such a sticky mess when it tries and it plugs up the valves sometimes I only one or two fills of air. The you need to watch turning the valve when putting the core back in.

 

[PDoz]

here is where things dont always go perfectly. I wanted to change tires in back on our tandem since the tire I am using is not tables rated as I found out. its been fine for 8 months but I dont want the tire coming off the rim.
so new tires here I take the other one off hit the all with the hose to wash off the sealants off everything put the new tire on set the bead and add some flat out. well the tire went low several times and you can see how it came out around the bead. I was thinking maybe I didn't to put enough sealant in as its hard to tell in that pouch so I put more in we went on a ride and this morning the tire is fully inflated. e go on our bridge ride and about 1/2 way through the tire is low again. we got home ok but it was like what? I was thinking the flat out was not going to work in this tire. take it apart there was plenty in there clean it all up. I found the valve gasket is way to squished down and replace it. put the flat out back in. it leaked for a bit but may be sealed. the hole looked clean through the tape but maybe not. but the valve was working fine till I took the tire off and washed it. so now the bottom pic looks like this. I had tried going this valve in as they kept coming loose. Now I have learned I just use two nuts and lock them together as soon as I put the valve in.

A couple of things from your post - don't assume goop coming out at the valve is getting out at the vale - sometimes it can be coming from further away, tracking inside the rim cavity and then escaping.

eg is that a scratch in the tape ( left red circle)
is that a folded lip on your valve rubber ( bottom r red circle)
is that gloop on top r stopping the tyre edges seal?

Finally, I never " wash" sealant off - I wipe it with a sacrificial cloth +/- use metho for the final clean. Then get the glasses put and start again...... Everything should be spotless before slipping a tyre back on

 

[fooferdoggie]

A couple of things from your post - don't assume goop coming out at the valve is getting out at the vale - sometimes it can be coming from further away, tracking inside the rim cavity and then escaping.

eg is that a scratch in the tape ( left red circle)
is that a folded lip on your valve rubber ( bottom r red circle)
is that gloop on top r stopping the tyre edges seal?

View attachment 160280

Finally, I never " wash" sealant off - I wipe it with a sacrificial cloth +/- use metho for the final clean. Then get the glasses put and start again...... Everything should be spotless before slipping a tyre back on

I cleaned the old glue off before I put the new valve in. That was a before pic. The speaker was wet so a hose worked well I mean I took the tire off then hosed it all down. Once it is dry or semi dry that’s another thing but this is flat out it does not actually dry. It will stay wet for days.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I'm gunna chime in on @fooferdoggie
Start fresh get new wheelset and tire.
Chances are the double wall on your rim is fractured and can not be re use.
Go with Stan's sealants.
I will go fund you $100 for new wheelset.

this is not that wheel I am getting that rebuilt. this is the back wheel. but its been fine but it had the same tire on it so I am changing tires. Just showing how things can go wrong when they seem simple.
I hada spare wheel in case this one was flat in the morning before the ride. I had three tubes laying around. all three had holes. ran out of tubes so I had to break out the patch kit.

 

[pmcdonald]

My tubeless maintenance involves checking the tyre pressure every 2-3 weeks (I'd do that with tubes at similar intervals), and setting a calendar alert to top the sealant up every 3 months. The top up takes a few minutes.

The ride feel alone is worth the extra 20 minutes a year of labour. I've certainly spent plenty more than that wrestling tubed tyres on in the past.

There's some setup cost to tubeless (valves + sealant + rim tape = AU~$80), plus the 1L of sealant every 18 months or so across my two bikes.

I also carry a spare tube, pump and tools just in case but, touch wood, have only had to once top a tyre up with air that self sealed after a puncture.

 

[Nvreloader]

My cargo bikes use belted tires that are essentially flat proof in and of themselves. They are not tubeless-ready so I do tubes and sealant underneath. That extra flat protection of the belted tire counters the weight savings of tubeless in that application.

Matt
What are you calling a belted tire?
I want to get a good set of tires/tubes for standby for the Wart Hog,
I got 2 Bakcou tubes, so far,

https://www.amazon.com/Bakcou-Schrader-Perfect-Electric-Mountain/dp/B0B2BJJTHC?th=1

Tia,
Don

 

[Nvreloader]

Can someone explain the use of a dollar bill in patching/fixing a flat tire?
I haven't a clue........

 

[fooferdoggie]

looks like there is still a leak I figured. well i will retape the rim. I doubt we will be riding for the next couple of days as it will be over 100 degrees.

Can someone explain the use of a dollar bill in patching/fixing a flat tire?
I haven't a clue........

not patching a tube to used to cover a cut in a tire so the tube does not come out. also called a tire boot.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Can someone explain the use of a dollar bill in patching/fixing a flat tire?
I haven't a clue........

You don't use a dollar bill to patch or fix a flat tire. You use a dollar bill as a tire boot to fix a rip or huge hole, usually in a tire's sidewall.

Actually, Canadian and Australian 5 dollar bills and 5 Euro bills are a bit better than a US dollar bill, largely because the fabric in the other banknotes has more synthetic fibers in them and they hold up better, especially in a wet or muddy environment.

I typically carry a Park Tool boot.