concerns with ebikes laws and ways to improve them

[Dewey]

Please stop trying to belittle me as biased…Just because you want to drive a motor vehicle…

Please take a moment to reflect on how your opinions might be perceived as threatening the personal safety of “riders” (not drivers as you put it) on this ebike forum. In every US state that has adopted the People for Bikes model 3-class ebike legislation Ebikes are not legally defined as motor vehicles, and Class 1-3 ebikes may be legally ridden on bicycle trails, multi-use paths, and sidewalks except where a city, county, or other trail authority, determines otherwise. These laws allow for riders to use our discretion when it concerns personal safety from car and truck drivers.

 

[tomjasz]

what I witness is that regular bicycles are being replaced instead.

Of 50 locals I know on eBikes exactly NONE that were able to pedal an acoustic bike replaced it with an eBike. In 7 years and I dare says thousands of support calls, emails, and sales a VAST majority were able to actually pedal again by adding an assistive motor. I'm thinking you've isolated yourself and have a completely skewed view of the reality around you.

I'm hoping your boat is entirely recycled wood and no fiberglass or resins that polluted your perfect world.
PLONK

 

[Dorkyman]

I'd be perfectly happy with a 15 mph speed limit for e-bikes. Problem is, there are a lot of testosterone-poisoned youths who are not old enough to drive a car yet want to go fast but lack common sense due to their tender age. It's currently legal for them to blast around town at class 3 speeds on Ebikes. Perhaps it shouldn't be.

By the way, a good way to think about horsepower is not to compare to a horse because it has little relevance, but instead to realize one HP=550 lbs lifted one foot off the ground in one second, and is equivalent to about 750 watts. My 48v/18a motor + controller can put out about 1 hp, so it can lift itself and the rider about 2 ft per second vertical up an incline at full throttle. On the flats it takes my bike about 400w to go 20 mph continuously, about 1/2hp.

 

[Ken M]

I'd be perfectly happy with a 15 mph speed limit for e-bikes. Problem is, there are a lot of testosterone-poisoned youths who are not old enough to drive a car yet want to go fast but lack common sense due to their tender age. It's currently legal for them to blast around town at class 3 speeds on Ebikes. Perhaps it shouldn't be.

By the way, a good way to think about horsepower is not to compare to a horse because it has little relevance, but instead to realize one HP=550 lbs lifted one foot off the ground in one second, and is equivalent to about 750 watts. My 48v/18a motor + controller can put out about 1 hp, so it can lift itself and the rider about 2 ft per second vertical up an incline at full throttle. On the flats it takes my bike about 400w to go 20 mph continuously, about 1/2hp.

If ebikes are to achieve their full potential for urban mobility 15mph is too slow (oil and car industry just loves to here that position because it keeps ebikes in the recreation and leisure use realm).

It's interesting that you mention being perfectly happy with a 15mph speed/assist limit for ebikes but then mention knowing that it takes about 400W to sustain 20mph on your ebike so clearly you are riding faster...& I assume you feel that is still a safe speed.

 

[Ken M]

Here on the 50th State we go by Federal Regulations 750w or less the only requirement is your ebikes must be registered with the county you live in to legally ride where regular bicycles ride.

So very few seem to understand that the federal regulation on wattage is a MOTOR RATING, not a limit. A power limit is established by the constraints of 20mph on a level surface - essentially the power is limited above 20mph to what would sustain the ebike at 20mph, on a level surface with a 170lb rider. Keep in mind this was written by a PhD electrical engineer that wanted ebikes to be appropriate for urban mobility but the NHTSA was dictating that motor power alone could not provide a speed faster than 20mph. A motor rating method makes great sense to enable utility ebikes to have more power below 20mph while making it impractical for single passenger ebikes to need higher power because it requires from 300-400W to sustain 20mph on a level surface (the spec allows higher peak power to say sustain a single passenger ebike at 20mph going up a hill so average speeds can be beneficial for mobility. Almost everyone interprets this is an assist cut-off at 20mph but it is not. This is why the CPSA clarified that ebikes can provide assist beyond 20mph so long as the additional speed is due to contribution of rider effort (I'm not fan of the class system but class 3 ebikes assist to 28mph which was promoted by People for Bikes only to harmonize with speed pedelecs in Europe).

I encourage everyone that is interested in the best future for ebikes to read the HR727 as it defines a "low speed electric bicycle" that is to be considered same as a bike by state use laws (states have the right to establish the use laws for bikes like age, where, when requirements but not the what is a legal ebike is, but they can establish a product that is different than a LSEB which is what the CPSC views the state 3-class ebikes - this still leaves an LSEB as a bike). This was a threat to the oil and auto industry so they funded a lobby effort by People for Bikes to adopt the class system to keep ebike performance to be primarily desirable for leisure and recreational riding. These powerful industries know that an ebike with the ability to average speeds in the 25 to 30mph range are a threat to get more people out of cars on some transportation needs which obviously takes money from them. Ebikes are the most efficient way that humans have ever devised to allow a person to get from point A to point B (even more than walking, riding an non ebike, or even a fully loaded passenger train) so it's important they be provided rational legislation like HR727 to reach their full potential.

 

[Rome]

You lost me there with all that baloney.
As far as I'm concerned my ebikes are legal where I live.
I ride it wherever and enjoy every minute of it.

 

[Ken M]

You lost me there with all that baloney.
As far as I'm concerned my ebikes are legal where I live.
I ride it wherever and enjoy every minute of it.

Please read HR727 as it defines what is legal for sale as a "low speed electric bicycle" in all 50 states. How you would consider referring to federal legislation that passed one vote short of full congressional consensus (ie keep in mind these are state representatives voting on federal legislation) as baloney is very strange and avoids a real constructive conversation on this subject.

I was legally riding a Polaris and Izip ebikes in Colorado (both were 100% compliant to the HR727). Then after Colorado became the 2nd state after California to adopt the 3-class legislation (to get Haibike to move their US sales headquarters here) both bikes became theoretically illegal to ride on any public infrastructure in Colorado. I called one of the state representatives that sponsored the bill and even People for Bikes that pushed the legislation and neither had a clue about the possibility this was a result of the legislation (of coarse they denied my information as accurate but the bikes have both been reviewed on EBR and the information can easily be verify as true and accurate). There was no consideration for the 12+ years where Colorado considered the compliant LSEBs defined by HR727 the same as bikes for use.

I was and still do ride these ebikes where ever and enjoy it but the fact is that I could be found liable of riding an illegal vehicle if ticketed or have an accident that injures a pedestrian. Ignorance of the laws would not be a defense for anyone which is why I try to share this information....it's a legitimate issue with ebike regulations in EVERY state that has adopted the 3-class legislation.

 

[tomjasz]

Your Support Connects Communities Through Bicycling

 

[m@Robertson]

So very few seem to understand that <SNIP>

You are misunderstanding disagreement for a failure to understand. Fact is, people are pretty smart here insofar as discussion participants are concerned (although we concurrently prove our stupidity by trying to talk to the brick wall that never listens).

Years into this, the relevant legislation and regulations have been read and understood. The arguments you push have also been read, digested, understood... and rejected.

After all this time and all of these thousands of pointless words, you know this.

 

[mschwett]

You are misunderstanding disagreement for a failure to understand. Fact is, people are pretty smart here insofar as discussion participants are concerned (although we concurrently prove our stupidity by trying to talk to the brick wall that never listens).

Years into this, the relevant legislation and regulations have been read and understood. The arguments you push have also been read, digested, understood... and rejected.

After all this time and all of these thousands of pointless words, you know this.

agreed. this is a classic approach of someone who fails to sway a significant majority with their arguments - they resort to claiming or assuming that nobody understands them.

we do understand. we may or may not agree in part of full, but we definitely understand.

 

[Kayakguy]

This. We have the technology to massively curtail the dangerous road behavior now. Speed/red light cameras could automate a lot of the enforcement that law enforcement can't be bothered to do. We could regulate trucks more like cars and ban stuff like bush bars and lift kits that are deadly to pedestrians. The problem is that motorists hate enforcement and the entire system (by design) bends over backwards to enable them, even when they are killing people. So nothing really gets done aside from a lot of hand wringing.

It sucks. Its a battle that cycling advocates have been having for decades, with some success, don't get me wrong. But lots more to do. America is a heavily car-centric society.

Our town (Bellingham) tried red light cameras a few years ago. Immediately, citizens rose up in arms and called for a referendum. Naturally, they won and the red light cameras vanished. I often see drivers zoom through an intersection when I already have the green light. I actually (and foolishly, probably) followed one such driver into a parking lot, and said that if I'd started on my green-to-go, we would have had a collision.
Thankfully, he was chagrined and all apologetic, rather than defiant and belligerent--which he could have been.

A sad case some years ago involved a "distracted" teenage girl (driving with friends in her car--hence the distraction) who rear-ended a car and pushed it into an occupied pedestrian crossing. Killed a little girl, if I remember correctly. The teen driver did not get off the hook, by the way. I know she did prison time.

But here's a more upbeat distracted driving story: A guy was on his way to visit his aunt who lived on a farm. As he approached, he saw a bee land on his cigar, and start walking toward his face. He was so distracted that he drove into the woman's pear tree, which was heavily loaded with over ripe, fermenting pears, and knocked all the pears to the ground. The woman's flock of geese descended on the scene, and scarfed up all the fermented pears, after which, being thoroughly inebriated, they passed out.

When the woman came out to see what the excitement was, she saw all her passed-out geese, assumed they were dead, plucked them, and stacked them in the cellar. When the geese came to and discovered they were naked, you can imagine the commotion.

This story may or may not be true.

 

[BryanG]

Back to the OP's concern, I think we all agree bikes (motorized or not) should not be sharing sidewalks with pedestrians. It isn't legal in my city and shouldn't be legal in others (potentially with an age cutoff).

I don't have a problem with an age cutoff for riding an e-bike either. Or licensing with mandatory training.

And I get that more mass and (maybe) higher speeds can make the effects of a collision worse with an e-bike. But really, all the safety concerns apply to both motorized and non-motorized bikes. I don't really see any laws or regulations that apply to e-bikes that shouldn't apply to all bikes. Just enforcing those laws is difficult.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I think we all agree bikes (motorized or not) should not be sharing sidewalks with pedestrians. It isn't legal in my city and shouldn't be legal in others (potentially with an age cutoff).

I don’t agree. Sometimes.the only safe place to be on a bicycle is on the sidewalk . I see a lot of busy stroads with two lanes, heavy traffic and uncomfortable speeds, no shoulder, and a sidewalk atop a foot high curb. Riding on the sidewalk (very carefully) is a no brainer in such situations.

A most laws restricting bikes on sidewalks include language allowing bicycles on sidewalks when there is no safe alternative.

 

[mschwett]

I don’t agree. Sometimes.the only safe place to be on a bicycle is on the sidewalk . I see a lot of busy stroads with two lanes, heavy traffic and uncomfortable speeds, no shoulder, and a sidewalk atop a foot high curb. Riding on the sidewalk (very carefully) is a no brainer in such situations.

A most laws restricting bikes on sidewalks include language allowing bicycles on sidewalks when there is no safe alternative.

definitely depends on the environment. in an urban environment with traditional right of way configuration (no setbacks, building -> sidewalk -> street furniture/trees -> curb parking -> vehicle lanes) it’s dangerous AF to ride a bike on the sidewalk, someone can open a door and step out at any moment, even if there aren’t any pedestrians visible. but where you have long sight lines and building entries are set way back, and the road is fast and narrow and busy, sidewalks are going to be much safer. i believe local laws take that into account, generally. here it’s illegal to ride on 99% of sidewalks unless you’re a child, and it should be.

 

[Ken M]

You are misunderstanding disagreement for a failure to understand. Fact is, people are pretty smart here insofar as discussion participants are concerned (although we concurrently prove our stupidity by trying to talk to the brick wall that never listens).

Years into this, the relevant legislation and regulations have been read and understood. The arguments you push have also been read, digested, understood... and rejected.

After all this time and all of these thousands of pointless words, you know this.

So you think that the 3-class state legislation is working? There are any new "multi-mode" (basically switchable to any class and even off-road whenever the rider chooses) which make it impossible to enforce any trail rule that only class 1 allowed (not that anyone is even trying to enforce the 3-class legislation.

At least the CPSC did release a statement on this essentially saying that an LSEB per HR727 is legal for sale in all 50 states and by their interpretation the same as any bike.

 

[Taylor57]

I am in the US, specifically north carolina. I like bicycles. I enjoyed an ebike last year. I am now a pedestrian and I don't think it is very far to walk 5 miles each way to do shopping so have no need for a bicycle currently. I have enjoyed an ebike and had one for almost a year. I use the motor to power a boat now instead. I returned to a place I had visited 4 years ago, and the situation has been transformed due to ebikes.

Unlike most internet users I can change my mine and opinions so I appreciate feedback in a civil discussion.


1) Safety: ebikes are physically heavier than regular bicycles due to the batteries and motor. The average speed of an bicycle is 8-12mph. Kinetic energy in crashes is related to mass times velocity squared. Reaction time is divided by velocity. The first time I tried my ebike I crashed badly as it had many times more power than I can pedal and I did not expect this. Around here I see 10 year old kids on full size very heavy ebikes that they probably couldn't pedal more than 10mph. I had some batteries short out on the bicycle frame. I had to jump off, throw the battery off, remove some cells that were burning hot, and jam a wire inbetween some cells and continue at a lower voltage. This is not very safe but completely legal. An actual collision is one of several ways to trigger a lithium battery fire.

2) Power: A normal rider outputs 120W or so. Few people are capable of 250W for extended periods. It seems 750W is not really appropriate. The argument about 1 horse power... well horses are a completely different animal, and they weigh roughly 800 pounds and travel about 4mph when producing 1 horse power.

3) Speed: I could maintain 20mph if I was very fit on flat ground. When I did this on a greenway when back in 2008 people yelled at me. It was rude to do travel this speed and few people pedal this fast simply because of their own physical limitation. ebikes go this speed all the time regardless of terrain. Sure some riders dont go the maximum speed they can, but that is not the norm around here. These are college students and they go as fast as the machine allows. Some ride on the road, and others ride on the sidewalk passing within inches of me. So far the dangerous ones have all been males in their 20's who aren't pedaling at all going much faster than 20mph on the sidewalk or bike path on what looks to me more like a motorcycle than a bicycle.

4) Future: Where does the energy come from to charge the ebike? I use 100 watts of solar panels for all my electricity. My ebike went 1 mile per 20 watt hours going 15mph. Compare efficiency, and you will find the lower speed has better efficiency. Solar power has a significant environmental impact. The panels have cadmium and should be used sparingly. Is it reasonable to consume excess energy from damaging sources like solar or even dirtier forms of power (we barely have any renewables on the grid as it is)? My ebike motor destroyed my alloy wheel making multiple cracks in the rim, after only few months of use. This means more waste, or heavier wheels, either way: more consumption. I went back to a standard bicycle and after a few weeks, the 20 mile round trip to the nearst grocery store didn't seem far anymore as I got back in shape pedaling again. In the past people took more pride in their fitness, now 74% are overweight and 42.4% obese setting new records. Replacing physical effort with motors seems a poor choice. What kind of society will remain?

5) Ethics: ebike batteries often use cobolt which is mined with child labor. The copper required comes at the expense of innocent lives. Please read about the panguna mine in bouganville if you dont believe me. Tens of thousands of innocent people who lived carbon-neutral lives were essentially murdered for the sake of greed of copper mining corporation "rio tinto" who refused to take responsibility for any wrong doing. Although the people there paid with their blood to shut that mine down, many women were raped and comitted suicide from the trama and the forest there continues to die off to this day as the toxic waste spreads. The children have leisons from swimming in the river and the people dont even have bicycles let alone ebikes. Other copper mines have similar negative environmental impacts. In china where rare earth metals are turned into neodymium magnets, entire villages went extinct from cancer. Most lithium batteries end up in landfill or worse. These factors do not exist for regular bicycles and cannot be ignored.

6) Evidence: reports are showing that over the past 4-5 years (2018-2022) ebikes are more dangerous than motorcycles. This is largely due to motorcycle riders generally wearing much better protective gear. This should be a concern to everyone. In europe, ebikes are 250W and no faster than 25kph (15mph) and generally age restricted. Is it not time to consider learning something from countries that know much more about widespread bicycle transportation?

7) Enforcement: In my own ebike, I used a vesc open source controller with a 1500W BMC motor I got for $100 on ebay. I never ran it above 400W but the power rating is not printed anywhere. I had 72 "2 year old" 18650 cells I got off ebay for $50. The bicycle itself was free, so the ebike cost was $200 total. There was no speed limit and it went a lot faster than I can pedal. One video I saw was an ebike with 7,500W, and by lying to police that it is only 750W they were told to "ride in the bike lane." youtube videos showing "this simple 5 minute hack to unlock your ebike" and another "safety mods" turns his ebike into 8000W capable of 80mph, all with positive feedback comments about how "sick" it is. No police seemed to care at all what speed I went. Anyone can swap a motor controller in 5 minutes or print a different sticker. People do whatever they can get away with. How can regulations on ebikes actually be enforced?


In conclusion: I don't care what speed ebikes go on roads: this is the only place I used mine. My concern is primarily sidewalks, and to some extent bike paths. As a pedestrian ebikes are new, in an marginalized space, and passing within inches at high speed. It is time to abolish these nonsense class 1, 2, 3 rules as they don't even make any sense, and adopt the european standards. An age restriction of 15 years and older anything with an electric motor for no other reason than to ensure less total resource consumption in our depleted world. Do we have to wait until enough kids crack their heads open to open our own minds as well? Can anyone agree? If not, can you explain why?

You lost me at walking 5 miles each way to shop.

 

[m@Robertson]

So you think that the 3-class state legislation is working?

Pretty much the only place it doesn't is every thread you participate in, going on and on about problems that don't really exist insofar as they don't actually have any effect on anything in the real world, other than providing fodder for an internet expert to prattle on about at every opportunity, whether invited to do so or not (almost always not).

 

[Ken M]

Pretty much the only place it doesn't is every thread you participate in, going on and on about problems that don't really exist insofar as they don't actually have any effect on anything in the real world, other than providing fodder for an internet expert to prattle on about at every opportunity, whether invited to do so or not (almost always not).

Listen, I have nothing to do with all the new ebikes coming out with Class switching capability. I did predict it would happen but that does not make it my fault.

Maybe you can explain what the performance difference is between a LSEB as defined by HR727 and a multi-mode ebike.

My guess is that the vast majority of ebike owners and future owners would prefer to just have a single specification that establishes an LSEB / eBike as the equivalent of a bike for use in all 50 states.

 

[jabberwocky]

The fact that non-compliant ebikes are sold isn't really an argument of anything other than "people ignore rules when they feel they can get away with it" (whatever your preferred definition of ebike is). Don't delude yourself into thinking that the government couldn't do something about that if they really wanted to. It wouldn't take the form of stationing cops at trailheads checking class stickers, it will be g-men with suits taking legal action against manufacturers, importers and dealers.

My guess is that the vast majority of ebike owners and future owners would prefer to just have a single specification that establishes an LSEB / eBike as the equivalent of a bike for use in all 50 states.

I am personally fine with whatever it takes to get the broadest access. IMO that requires more than one definition unless we are willing to just accept class-1 (or similar) as the only definition, since there will be, for a long time, trails and jurisdictions that simply won't accept throttles and won't accept higher assists. I know you think some magical federal level definition will force access literally everywhere, in every state, to trails and paths under various federal, state and local departmental control. Which is (as has been explained to you a million times at this point) simply not how things work.

 

[m@Robertson]

Listen, I have nothing to do with all the new ebikes coming out with Class switching capability. I did predict it would happen but that does not make it my fault.

Maybe you can explain what the performance difference is between a LSEB as defined by HR727 and a multi-mode ebike.

My guess is that the vast majority of ebike owners and future owners would prefer to just have a single specification that establishes an LSEB / eBike as the equivalent of a bike for use in all 50 states.

This entire post is a non sequitur whose poopy purpose is to peddle pointless propositions promoting puerile prattling, proselytization, prevarication and pestering of the poor people in this pedaling ... phorum.