Tube vs. Tubeless on ebikes

[sanyata]

When you remove the tubeless tyre it is a mess anyway. Been there done that. It was the single factor to reduce my enthusiasm about the tubeless setup. You are lucky to live in a continent with no ice in the winters...

When I remove the tubeless tire, I first suck out as much fluid as possible with a syringe through the valve stem. This helps to keep the mess to a minimum. YMMV

 

[PDoz]

When I remove the tubeless tire, I first suck out as much fluid as possible with a syringe through the valve stem. This helps to keep the mess to a minimum. YMMV

AND you can then squirt that into the next tyre

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Just an example.
The Pathfinder Pro 2 Bliss of my Vado SL have 6,000 km on them and look like they were brand new despite being ridden for two seasons.
The Marathon Winter Plus were used for two short Winter seasons, and it is 2340 km ridden on them. I have them in my reach now, looked at them and they are in the mint condition!
(The data come from my Strava maintenance log).

I could take pictures if you wanted to see the tyre condition

 

[m@Robertson]

I use a variety of tubed and tubeless tires on my ebikes. All three of my mtb-oriented bikes are tubeless.

• I use Flatout as the tubeless sealant. It never dries out (10 year lifespan) and so never needs refilling. No Stans Boogers, or Orange Seal rubber coatings inside the tire when those types dry out.
• Flatout as a tubeless sealant really works to seal flats. Saved me from a 6-nail strip of nailgun nails once on my Surly Big Fat Dummy, which was a fat bike shod with 4.8" Snowshoe 2XLs.
• With that same sealant, it coats the interior of the tire so refills are almost never necessary. Maybe once every month or two.

For the tubed tires, I use a variety of tubes but am trying to standardize on Schwalbe Air Plus where I can. Its a thicker tube but not as thick as a thornproof tube. The tube tires also use Flatout as a sealant.

I can see no detriment to either type one relative to the other in terms of reliability. Same with flatproofing, where thanks to the sealant I use, both tires are protected for holes up to about 1/2", and I've put this to the test, unfortunately. Thats the sealant and has no bearing on tubed or tubeless.

The decision to go one or the other is more about fear. A tubeless tire that is thoroughly munched may be more difficult to get back rolling again, although I do take along spare tubes just in case, along with a tire boot pkg in my kit. My cargo bikes use belted tires that are essentially flatproof in and of themselves. They are not tubeless-ready so I do tubes and sealant underneath. That extra flat protection of the belted tire counters the weight savings of tubeless in that application.

 

[mschwett]

So, one more negative to the tubeless noted - regular maintenance required. Why nobody mentioned this before?

I did it once and then simply built new wheel set for winter season. Changing wheels is simpler than swapping tires (even ones with tubes) and you always have a backup set of wheels just in case.

i'm all for switching wheels rather than tires when circumstances change - i have a set of road wheels and off road wheels for one of my e-bikes.

how onerous the "regular maintenance" is depends on how much you ride, really. if you ride every 3 months, then yes, the sealant may be dried out every time you ride. if you ride every day, the sealant lasts almost as long as the tires. i typically get around 3,000 miles (6 months) from a set of tires and add sealant once, which takes maybe a minute or two.

i agree that if you don't ride a bike often, tubes will hold air better and on a "per ride" basis require less maintenance, as simple as that maintenance is. for that reason my daughters' bikes have tubes.

 

[mschwett]

When you remove the tubeless tyre it is a mess anyway. Been there done that. It was the single factor to reduce my enthusiasm about the tubeless setup. You are lucky to live in a continent with no ice in the winters...

you may have used too much! each one i've removed is more like a thin layer spread around the inside of the tire, not a pool or anything. or perhaps i just haven't had to replace one that's freshly filled. it evaporates gradually.

 

[DaveMatthews]

When I first got an ebike (2019 Giant Fathom) I got 3 flats in 4 months, all blackberry thorns.
I converted to tubeless and have had zero flats in 4 years across 3 different tire types on 2 different bikes (Maxxis Forekaster, Maxxis Rekon, and Continental Ruban).
Never going back.

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

i use tubes with tannus armour inserts, ive always been curious about tubeless but always too lazy to actually dig into them further than general curiosity. a someday project!

 

[ava1ar]

When I first got an ebike (2019 Giant Fathom) I got 3 flats in 4 months, all blackberry thorns.

I think this is the case where tires to be blamed, not tubes. What tires these were?

 

[DaveMatthews]

I think this is the case where tires to be blamed, not tubes. What tires these were?

Maxxis Forkaster. Pretty tough looking tire for pure off road.

 

[PCeBiker]

that I doubt. you know what a tubular tire is on a bike? its glued onto a rim that just has a curved surface.

I'm stuck in the 80's too,.. when tires had wire beads, didn't fold, and I don't think that there even was tubeless bike tires?

 

[PCeBiker]

ps - tannus inserts also need maintenance, the foam compresses over time

No Kidding !!
Mine squashed down from about an inch thick down to less than ¼" thick.
Apparently, I'm supposed to let the air out of my tires after every ride, then suspend the bike so it isn't sitting on flat tires.
Then reinflate the tires next ride.
That's total crap !!

The worst part for me was that I was supposed to be able to ride my ebike on flat tires if I go less than 10 kph.

That's not the case on my 26"X4.00" tires.
I can see the pink inserts when I deflate my tires, then the bead falls off the rim and gets jammed in the frame.

 

[BlackHand]

I use Aerothan lightweight TPU tubes. A little lighter than running tubeless would be and better puncture protection than regular tubes.

2 flats in almost 5000 miles, both probably would have self sealed in a tubeless setup, but I'm ok with that. Never really have to check the pressure unless I've aired down for a trail ride.

 

[m@Robertson]

i agree that if you don't ride a bike often, tubes will hold air better and on a "per ride" basis require less maintenance,

I think this may be a function of the tire more than it is the tubeless platform. If the tires fit tightly to the rims, you can do entirely without sealant, crazily enough. The tires will go flat in a couple days like that, but still you can go ride in a sealant-free tire.

Maxxis tires in particular on DT Swiss rims I have found fit like gloves on three separate bikes, with no sealant needed as described above. With sealant inside - the same magical Flatout I was going on about earlier - the tubeless tires stay inflated and rideable for months. Its a slow decline, but very slow. This is also true for my fat bikes with Vee tires (Snowshoe XL and Snow Avalanche) shod on Nextie carbon fiber rims. Nextie seems to have a rep for tight fitment so maybe the star of that show is the rims.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

you may have used too much! each one i've removed is more like a thin layer spread around the inside of the tire, not a pool or anything. or perhaps i just haven't had to replace one that's freshly filled. it evaporates gradually.

Um... Yes, you are right.

I was initially very excited to find out Trance E+ rims and stock Maxxis downhill tyres were TLE, so I asked my brother for the conversion. The tubeless setup turned out to be really useful: it spared me a long day on a ride in the West Pomerania, the wild part of Poland when a bit of quartzite punctured the front tyre. I even had no repair set with me on that ride (but I had an MTB pump). I liked the tubeless but needed to go with far less aggressive tyres. The swap was so messy we looked at each other with brother and went back to the inner tubes.

I can imagine my situation might change after I return to my Old Home (I have a large storage area available there). I could ride the Vado 6.0 during the short snowy/icy season only, and use the Vado SL for the long "normal" season. In such a case I would go tubeless for Vado SL exactly for the reasons you articulated so often!

 

[m@Robertson]

So, one more negative to the tubeless noted - regular maintenance required. Why nobody mentioned this before?

Every sealant includes this info in their instructions, at least somewhere. And 6 months can be a generous estimate. Some go as little as two. Orange Seal IIRC is two months. Their Endurance formula is rated for longer and exists solely for that reason. OS is a great sealant but that drying time is a killer.

You have to treat this not as a tubeless problem but a sealant problem. The drying times vary. So do the max hole sizes that the sealants will work on. And as I noted there is what amounts to a new gen product out there that, with an effectively limitless lifespan and rating to seal holes double the size of the rest of the field, rewrites the rule book.

But its not perfect. You need to put in a lot of it - roughly double what you do with other brands. Myself personally I don't care as I prize flatproofing over weight.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

So, one more negative to the tubeless noted - regular maintenance required. Why nobody mentioned this before?

Well, if you put down a lot of miles chances are you are replacing your tires more often than you'd need to freshen up the sealant. I ride on atrocious roads a lot and can reasonably expect between 1500 and 2500 miles on a set of tires before they badly need replacing. Since I typically ride 3000 to 4500 miles per year I never really need to freshen up the sealant except when I'm replacing tires anyhow.

There are situations where you get all screwed up and need to add more sealant. If you have a really bad puncture that doesn't want to seal or screw up and go through multiple tire plugs to fix a puncture you can lose a spectacular amount of sealant. Another time I bent a valve core and was much too impatient when I removed the bent valve core and spilled way too much sealant.

 

[PCeBiker]

But its not perfect. You need to put in a lot of it - roughly double what you do with other brands. Myself personally I don't care as I prize flatproofing over weight.

I would like to thank @m@Robertson for pointing me in the right direction with the Flat Out.
I bought the off road version instead of the highway version.

Now if I could just have a link to this new magic potion ?

I don't mind At All using double or spending double,..
I just need a few more pounds to have a 100 pound ebike.

 

[PCeBiker]

I use Aerothan lightweight TPU tubes.

I think Tannus should smarten up and use PU foam instead.
PU foam is far less inclined to lose air under compression.
Closed cell PU foam almost doesn't leak?

I don't care if it weighs more.
I want more durable.

As far as I know, presidential motorcades use foam filled tires.
They can be full of bullet holes and are still driveable.

Why is this technology not available for ebikes?

 

[ava1ar]

Maxxis Forkaster. Pretty tough looking tire for pure off road.

They are off-roard, but I don't see anything for puncture protection on them for main track - just sidewalls. Compare with i.e. Maraphon GT 365 from Schwalbe.
Is side protection useful for MTB bikes? I don't think it makes sense for regular rides a lot...