ST5 vs Riese & Muller mid drive for hills

I ride a 2018 Homage Rohloff HS. There are several key differences between the bikes Homage vs ST5) that will make a big difference in your overall satisfaction and pleasure with your new bike. I do

The Homage has a full suspension which adds greatly to riding comfort and the ability to ride distances with way less, if any, pain. It is also a significant added safety factor, especially in a 28 mph bike. With the suspension, the tires are kept in contact with the road, making the bike more surefooted in the corners and vastly improving braking performance. The other safety factor is that, with a suspension you spend far less time avoiding bumps and flaws in the road making your path much straighter and more predictable to surrounding traffic...way less sudden veering of your bike to avoid pits and bumps in the road. They just don't matter with a good fully suspended bike. Riding in traffic, I actually feel much safer in a bike that can stay with the flow of the cars. I take the lane where needed, making sure the car in front has seen me and getting front and rear protection with only right and left being exposed. For me a rear view mirror is key to safe riding in traffic.

Having a CX 20mph version of the Bosch on our Nevo Nuvinci and the HS version on the Homage, I can definitely say that once you ride a speed version it is hard to go back unless you're riding with a slower rider anyway. The new Homage is available with carbon fiber belt drive. Rohloff Hub and Rohloff e14 shifing. My bike has the Rohloff but not the Gates belt or E14. I have three bikes, one with Shimano 8000 gears and deraileur, one with Nuvinci, and one with Rohloff. I wish they all had the Rohloff with its huge gear range, sealed system and reputation for durability.

The Bosch speed version is still only a 350 watt motor so it is less of a rocket on the flats than a 500+ watt hub motor. I live in a hilly town with lots of 12-15% grades. In "SPORT" assist, I set the Rohloff to 3rd gear for those hills, rarely ever using 1st or 2nd gear. The range on the gear Rohloff allows me to keep pedaling and actually still pushing at a cadence of 90 going down hill in 14th gear at 35 mph.

I actually want to get some exercise on my bike and don't want a throttle, I realize that some want it and some in fact need a throttle to make biking feasible. So far at 68 I'm good to go as far as keeping my heart rate around 100 for extended rides and typically average around 20-30 miles per riding day. If I want a speedy ride, I can do 24 mph for an hour at level three or "Sport" assist level. If I slow down to under 18 I can use "TOUR" boost level and extend my range out to 45 miles or even 65 at 'ECO" with a speed of around 15 mph. My effort is about equivalent at each of these values.
 
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That has been my experience too. If you are willing to pedal, the SYNO drive works just as well. Actually, on short moderate hilly terrain, ST2 climbs better than my Bosch drives.

Which is the best selling S-pedelec in Switzerland?

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Difficult to answer. The 5'430 might be (only) Stromer. The brands of the bikes may vary, but I expect, the most of the other 45 km/h having a Bosch mid-drive. In terms of DD / hub drives, Stromer is not completely without competitors, but there only a few remaining. Go SwissDrive, BionX or Kymco (Klever) come into my mind.
 
I have ridden both a 1x7 Pedego Interceptor and a Rohloff and Bosch Performance CX-equipped Riese & Muller in very rugged and hilly terrain, with grades above 20%.

My own experience is that the Charger more reliably and comfortably climbs the steepest hills, while the Interceptor can get bogged down badly unless you hit everything perfectly. In practice, "hitting everything perfectly" includes not losing momentum on steep switchbacks and opportunistic speeding up on the gentler sections to keep that momentum.

I have a strong suspicion that the limited gear range of a 1x drivetrain has at least something to do with the less capable hill climbing abilities of the Interceptor. A 2x7 Interceptor with a mountain double chainring would probably climb just fine. But 2x hub-drive bikes are rare to nonexistent beasts, while Rohloff-equipped e-bikes aren't exactly common but are widely available. Another suspicion I have is that the mid-drive bikes are 5-10 percent more efficient, but I can't yet say why or even know that for sure -- that's just been my experience comparing range and battery capacity.

You can have very steep hills without it being technical mountain biking terrain.

Point taken about chain wear. I seem to be wearing out a chain every 1800 miles or so. But I am riding in pretty heinous conditions.
 
Yes the first question you need to answer is why am I riding? If the answer does not include to get at least some moderate excersize then my previous comments do not apply. However you do not need to kill yourself climbing hills with the Bosch system, so long as you are not in a hurry and use the proper gears.
 
I have ridden both a 1x7 Pedego Interceptor and a Rohloff and Bosch Performance CX-equipped Riese & Muller in very rugged and hilly terrain, with grades above 20%.

My own experience is that the Charger more reliably and comfortably climbs the steepest hills, while the Interceptor can get bogged down badly unless you hit everything perfectly. In practice, "hitting everything perfectly" includes not losing momentum on steep switchbacks and opportunistic speeding up on the gentler sections to keep that momentum.

I have a strong suspicion that the limited gear range of a 1x drivetrain has at least something to do with the less capable hill climbing abilities of the Interceptor. A 2x7 Interceptor with a mountain double chainring would probably climb just fine. But 2x hub-drive bikes are rare to nonexistent beasts, while Rohloff-equipped e-bikes aren't exactly common but are widely available. Another suspicion I have is that the mid-drive bikes are 5-10 percent more efficient, but I can't yet say why or even know that for sure -- that's just been my experience comparing range and battery capacity.

You can have very steep hills without it being technical mountain biking terrain.

Point taken about chain wear. I seem to be wearing out a chain every 1800 miles or so. But I am riding in pretty heinous conditions.
I dont mind replacing a chain . It is simple and not expensive.
 
I ride a 2018 Homage Rohloff HS. There are several key differences between the bikes Homage vs ST5) that will make a big difference in your overall satisfaction and pleasure with your new bike. I do

The Homage has a full suspension which adds greatly to riding comfort and the ability to ride distances with way less, if any, pain. It is also a significant added safety factor, especially in a 28 mph bike. With the suspension, the tires are kept in contact with the road, making the bike more surefooted in the corners and vastly improving braking performance. The other safety factor is that, with a suspension you spend far less time avoiding bumps and flaws in the road making your path much straighter and more predictable to surrounding traffic...way less sudden veering of your bike to avoid pits and bumps in the road. They just don't matter with a good fully suspended bike. Riding in traffic, I actually feel much safer in a bike that can stay with the flow of the cars. I take the lane where needed, making sure the car in front has seen me and getting front and rear protection with only right and left being exposed. For me a rear view mirror is key to safe riding in traffic.

Having a CX 20mph version of the Bosch on our Nevo Nuvinci and the HS version on the Homage, I can definitely say that once you ride a speed version it is hard to go back unless you're riding with a slower rider anyway. The new Homage is available with carbon fiber belt drive. Rohloff Hub and Rohloff e14 shifing. My bike has the Rohloff but not the Gates belt or E14. I have three bikes, one with Shimano 8000 gears and deraileur, one with Nuvinci, and one with Rohloff. I wish they all had the Rohloff with its huge gear range, sealed system and reputation for durability.

The Bosch speed version is still only a 350 watt motor so it is less of a rocket on the flats than a 500+ watt hub motor. I live in a hilly town with lots of 12-15% grades. In "SPORT" assist, I set the Rohloff to 3rd gear for those hills, rarely ever using 1st or 2nd gear. The range on the gear Rohloff allows me to keep pedaling and actually still pushing at a cadence of 90 going down hill in 14th gear at 35 mph.

I actually want to get some exercise on my bike and don't want a throttle, I realize that some want it and some in fact need a throttle to make biking feasible. So far at 68 I'm good to go as far as keeping my heart rate around 100 for extended rides and typically average around 20-30 miles per riding day. If I want a speedy ride, I can do 24 mph for an hour at level three or "Sport" assist level. If I slow down to under 18 I can use "TOUR" boost level and extend my range out to 45 miles or even 65 at 'ECO" with a speed of around 15 mph. My effort is about equivalent at each of these values.
Alaskan do you have a Nevo also ?
 
@steve mercier , it's a long story that perhaps I will have a chance to share with you someday if we arrange a ride together. (which would be fun and easy as I am in Bellingham).

I have three ebikes:

Cube Exc Touring Hybrid with Shimano 8000 11 speed (11-46 teeth) and Bosch CX (bought new with paint flaws. dirt cheap on ebay for a spare battery/bike for friends and family)
Riese & Muller Nevo Nuvinci GH Bosch CX (my wife's ride)
Riese & Muller Homage Rohloff High Speed Bosch with Fox Float suspension (my pride & Joy)

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@steve mercier , it's a long story that perhaps I will have a chance to share with you someday if we arrange a ride together. (which would be fun and easy as I am in Bellingham).

I have three ebikes:

Cube Exc Touring Hybrid with Shimano 8000 11 speed (11-46 teeth) and Bosch CX (bought new with paint flaws. dirt cheap on ebay for a spare battery/bike for friends and family)
Riese & Muller Nevo Nuvinci GH Bosch CX (my wife's ride)
Riese & Muller Homage Rohloff High Speed Bosch with Fox Float suspension (my pride & Joy)

View attachment 27609 View attachment 27612
What do you think the Nevo would be like with the Fox float fork and a thudbuster seat post on it ? I can get my hands on a Nevo at a steal, but I woud want to change that NCX fork.
 
I would put a Kinekt Body Float on it first and see how you like it. The Nevo came with a Thudbuster but the body float with the right springs and setting on the pre-load is way better. The GH came with a SR Suntour XCR32 Air, 70 mm Travel, Compression Clicker with Lockout, Rebound Adjustment. When properly adjusted it does a very respectable job. What model Nevo are you looking at with the NCX?
 
I would put a Kinekt Body Float on it first and see how you like it. The Nevo came with a Thudbuster but the body float with the right springs and setting on the pre-load is way better. The GH came with a SR Suntour XCR32 Air, 70 mm Travel, Compression Clicker with Lockout, Rebound Adjustment. When properly adjusted it does a very respectable job. What model Nevo are you looking at with the NCX?
NO I had a Nevo with that NCX and I hated that fork
 
For 2018 it will probably be the ST2. Sales are currently strong due to several factors:

- The 618 Wh 2017 ST2. The winter price is only marginally higher than a 2019 ST1 LE and about half the price of an ST5. That’s a great sales pitch 4 weeks from Xmas, even if it’s the MY 2017.

- Clearance sales on the 2018 raw and Classic ST2s.

- Winter pricing. It’s practically the only time you can get a deal on a Stromer. People know it and it fuels sales.

- Absence of rebates on the newer ST3 and ST5 models.
Here in Canada you can buy a ST1 Platinum for the equivalent of 2100 swiss francs ..is that a good deal ? This time of year it seems all bikes are on sale. thttps://www.amegoev.com/stromer-stromer-st1-platinum.html
 
Mine came with an NRX fork which I was ready to replace it with RS Paragon when I received the bike. However although most NRX, NCX etc (suntour hybrid forks) are coil mine to my surprise was the Air version. The entry level Suntour Nrx,NCx and even the cross forks like XCR are <$100 for coils but almost 2 times ($180-200) for air versions. I think if you have the Air versions they do a decent job(of course if I decided to change the for I would definitely pay more and get a nice RS, Fox fork).

Suntour has different versions of a fork under the same name, I guess they are customizing for bike companies.

Which bike do you have the NCX on ?
 
Mine came with an NRX fork which I was ready to replace it with RS Paragon when I received the bike. However although most NRX, NCX etc (suntour hybrid forks) are coil mine to my surprise was the Air version. The entry level Suntour Nrx,NCx and even the cross forks like XCR are <$100 for coils but almost 2 times ($180-200) for air versions. I think if you have the Air versions they do a decent job(of course if I decided to change the for I would definitely pay more and get a nice RS, Fox fork).

Suntour has different versions of a fork under the same name, I guess they are customizing for bike companies.

Which bike do you have the NCX on ?
I dont have any bike with that fork on it right now. It was on a Nevo GT tour which exchanged for a Charger GT Tour which has a nice Aion air shock. But they have marked down the Nevo even lower now ( its such a nice bike except for that fork ) so I was thinking of getting it also and upgrading the fork. Also that would give me a spare 500 battery to bring along if I ever go camping by bike. Chain Reaction cycles has some Manitou and Fox forks on clearance .....is anybody familiar with them? https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ca/en/manitou-mattoc-comp-forks-boost-15mm-axle/rp-prod178213 or this FOX https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ca/en/fox-suspension-32-float-fit4-performance-fork-2016/rp-prod143968
 
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I dont have any bike with that fork on it right now. It was on a Nevo GT tour which exchanged for a Charger GT Tour which has a nice Aion air shock. But they have marked down the Nevo even lower now ( its such a nice bike except for that fork ) so I was thinking of getting it also and upgrading the fork. Also that would give me a spare 500 battery to bring along if I ever go camping by bike. Chain Reaction cycles has some Manitou and Fox forks on clearance .....is anybody familiar with them? https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ca/en/manitou-mattoc-comp-forks-boost-15mm-axle/rp-prod178213 or this FOX https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ca/en/fox-suspension-32-float-fit4-performance-fork-2016/rp-prod143968

Aion is a nice fork, it is actually a "budget" alternative to more expensive Rockshox pike , Fox forks. However For a RM which is priced like 6K that does not sound well. Again that fork should be very good but you should be getting the more expensive top of the line stuff for that price.
NCX on a 5K bicycle is outright an insult for an extremely expensive bike which is praised for component quality.

I have heard very good things about mattoc if it fits it should be great for that price.
 
@steve mercier , it's a long story that perhaps I will have a chance to share with you someday if we arrange a ride together. (which would be fun and easy as I am in Bellingham).

I have three ebikes:

Cube Exc Touring Hybrid with Shimano 8000 11 speed (11-46 teeth) and Bosch CX (bought new with paint flaws. dirt cheap on ebay for a spare battery/bike for friends and family)
Riese & Muller Nevo Nuvinci GH Bosch CX (my wife's ride)
Riese & Muller Homage Rohloff High Speed Bosch with Fox Float suspension (my pride & Joy)

View attachment 27609 View attachment 27612
@steve mercier , it's a long story that perhaps I will have a chance to share with you someday if we arrange a ride together. (which would be fun and easy as I am in Bellingham).

I have three ebikes:

Cube Exc Touring Hybrid with Shimano 8000 11 speed (11-46 teeth) and Bosch CX (bought new with paint flaws. dirt cheap on ebay for a spare battery/bike for friends and family)
Riese & Muller Nevo Nuvinci GH Bosch CX (my wife's ride)
Riese & Muller Homage Rohloff High Speed Bosch with Fox Float suspension (my pride & Joy)

View attachment 27609 View attachment 27612
Alaskan Yes we should figure out a way to ride together perhaps in the spring ?
 
OT, but with the Bafang Ultra, gear changes are practically optional. I can't imagine having to use the lowest three gears. Hills ? Ha!
 
The answer to this thread probably has to do with the OP's physical condition, personal preferences, weight, and grade of hills to be climbed.

I'll give my subjective take on this as I'm also considering a Stromer vs Bosch.

Stromer:

Pluses:

- Unlike the mid-drives It will handle transitions seamlessly and almost effortlessly. Remember that the ST5 is essentially a road warrior. It's well suited for an environment where there are transitions which occur in succession, such as red lights, moderate changes in hill grade, round-points, and other factors requiring you to slow down and then accelerate quickly again.

- The ability to maintain a constant top speed of 28 mph (or above) on flats with little effort is also a strong point here. On flat terrain and moderate hills your average speed will typically be much higher than with any of the Bosch mid-drives sold by R&M.

- The Syno drive has no parts with mechanical friction. Therefore it is extremely durable. See the Pedelec Monitor Database for user supplied data on reliability (might need Chrome to translate):

https://pedelecmonitor.wordpress.com/mittelmotoren/nabenmotoren/stromer-nabenmotoren


Minuses:

- With a Stromer on a hill greater than 10% grade you're going to have to press fairly hard on the pedals. The steeper it gets, the harder you're going to have to press. You cannot use a granny gear to lightly spin your way up a 20% grade with any of the Stromer bikes. At 20% grade it gets frankly physical. Even for young people.

- The bike itself has no suspension and is not really suitable for off-road riding. This tends to limit its versatility as a commuter bike in a rural environment.

- The rear wheel of the Stromer is heavy (5 kilos). If you have weak arms, fixing a flat tyre can be challenging. I'm discouraged from buying a Stromer because of this, and I'm only fifty+ years old. In comparison the Rohlhoff transmission is fairly light.


*******************************************************************


R&M:

Pluses:

- Depending on the model you choose, R&M bikes are often extremely versatile. The Charger and SuperCharger are do-it-all types of bikes, although they are not necessarily the best at everything (more below). You could do some light off-road riding and perhaps even more challenging terrain depending on the model chosen.

- Unlike the Stromer, maintenance tends to be easier if your physical strength is limited. The Rohlhoff transmission is fairly light. There might be a little learning curve if you get a bike with a belt drive because you'll need to re-tension that and learn how to remove the wheel. But I'm sure the good folks in the R&M forum can help you with that. I've done it once and it was much less intimidating to me than changing a rear flat on a Stromer.

- You can climb steep hills in a granny gear without putting too much strain on your knees. Especially with the Rohlhoff.

Minuses:

- The R&M bikes aren't good at speed. Even with the Bosch Performance Speed. Your top speed will be limited to about 26mph and you're going to have to work fairly hard to get there (even on flats). Climbing moderate grades fast is possible but requires more physical input than with a Stromer. An ST5 will breeze up a 4% incline with relative ease whereas a Bosch drive will make you work for it. To climb a 4% incline with the same ease as with the Stromer, the Bosch requires you to drop a couple of gears and reduce your speed. This is a fundamental difference between both systems.

- Can't handle transitions as well as the Stromer. The mid-drives require a lot of gear changes. The automatic transmission proposed by Enviolo is reactive in nature. It does not understand that a brief downhill section followed by an uphill incline requires anticipation. It will only change the gear ratio after you start climbing the hill. When riding in an environment with rapid transitions it can be really annoying because the transmission always seems to be a step behind. The manual Rohlhoff is excellent, but it still requires a lot of gear changes compared to the Stromer. With a Stromer a slight downhill that is followed by an uphill section often requires zero gear changes because the torque and power remain fairly constant and are not solely dependent on the gear selected (as is often the case with mid-drives under 500W).


It seems like you are in the same position as I am in and considering the same bikes. The area that I live in is supposed to be mountain bike heaven but trails are in National and State Forests. For trails Ebikes are considered motorized vehicles and and not allowed at this time. That is probably why none of the bike shops carry Ebikes as most of them are geared toward mountain bikes. However, the roads around here are just as nice. I am sure there are many grades in excess of 15% especially near my house.

Another Ebike I considered was an Optibike R8C that will be out in the Spring and priced about the same, around $10K. They are very flexible in which components you want and will configure it to your needs. The R8C will be configured as a Class 3. However, it is throttle only to 20 MPH and pedelac to 28 MPH. Also the motor seems very noisy and only sold direct from Colorado. I had started another thread in the Optibike Forum but no reply. Not sure I would get much exercise with this bike and really don't like the idea of a throttle.

I am close to 70, recently retired, and want to ride for pleasure and exercise. Not in good shape but not overweight and only weigh around 150 lbs.
 
The answer to this thread probably has to do with the OP's physical condition, personal preferences, weight, and grade of hills to be climbed.

I'll give my subjective take on this as I'm also considering a Stromer vs Bosch.

Stromer:

Pluses:

- Unlike the mid-drives It will handle transitions seamlessly and almost effortlessly. Remember that the ST5 is essentially a road warrior. It's well suited for an environment where there are transitions which occur in succession, such as red lights, moderate changes in hill grade, round-points, and other factors requiring you to slow down and then accelerate quickly again.

- The ability to maintain a constant top speed of 28 mph (or above) on flats with little effort is also a strong point here. On flat terrain and moderate hills your average speed will typically be much higher than with any of the Bosch mid-drives sold by R&M.

- The Syno drive has no parts with mechanical friction. Therefore it is extremely durable. See the Pedelec Monitor Database for user supplied data on reliability (might need Chrome to translate):

https://pedelecmonitor.wordpress.com/mittelmotoren/nabenmotoren/stromer-nabenmotoren


Minuses:

- With a Stromer on a hill greater than 10% grade you're going to have to press fairly hard on the pedals. The steeper it gets, the harder you're going to have to press. You cannot use a granny gear to lightly spin your way up a 20% grade with any of the Stromer bikes. At 20% grade it gets frankly physical. Even for young people.

- The bike itself has no suspension and is not really suitable for off-road riding. This tends to limit its versatility as a commuter bike in a rural environment.

- The rear wheel of the Stromer is heavy (5 kilos). If you have weak arms, fixing a flat tyre can be challenging. I'm discouraged from buying a Stromer because of this, and I'm only fifty+ years old. In comparison the Rohlhoff transmission is fairly light.


*******************************************************************


R&M:

Pluses:

- Depending on the model you choose, R&M bikes are often extremely versatile. The Charger and SuperCharger are do-it-all types of bikes, although they are not necessarily the best at everything (more below). You could do some light off-road riding and perhaps even more challenging terrain depending on the model chosen.

- Unlike the Stromer, maintenance tends to be easier if your physical strength is limited. The Rohlhoff transmission is fairly light. There might be a little learning curve if you get a bike with a belt drive because you'll need to re-tension that and learn how to remove the wheel. But I'm sure the good folks in the R&M forum can help you with that. I've done it once and it was much less intimidating to me than changing a rear flat on a Stromer.

- You can climb steep hills in a granny gear without putting too much strain on your knees. Especially with the Rohlhoff.

Minuses:

- The R&M bikes aren't good at speed. Even with the Bosch Performance Speed. Your top speed will be limited to about 26mph and you're going to have to work fairly hard to get there (even on flats). Climbing moderate grades fast is possible but requires more physical input than with a Stromer. An ST5 will breeze up a 4% incline with relative ease whereas a Bosch drive will make you work for it. To climb a 4% incline with the same ease as with the Stromer, the Bosch requires you to drop a couple of gears and reduce your speed. This is a fundamental difference between both systems.

- Can't handle transitions as well as the Stromer. The mid-drives require a lot of gear changes. The automatic transmission proposed by Enviolo is reactive in nature. It does not understand that a brief downhill section followed by an uphill incline requires anticipation. It will only change the gear ratio after you start climbing the hill. When riding in an environment with rapid transitions it can be really annoying because the transmission always seems to be a step behind. The manual Rohlhoff is excellent, but it still requires a lot of gear changes compared to the Stromer. With a Stromer a slight downhill that is followed by an uphill section often requires zero gear changes because the torque and power remain fairly constant and are not solely dependent on the gear selected (as is often the case with mid-drives under 500W).
 
I did find out that Stromer will have a suspension fork available in January for the ST5. The availability date seems to keep getting pushed back though. A dealer sent me a picture of it so it does exist.
 
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